Anthology of Ideas

It can work, but………. we would ALL have to change our mind set, and NOt think about having MORE of everything. Thinking that’s what would make me happy. The rich people have proved it for years. Those who have everything. Once you have the ability to buy anything you want, traveld where ever you awanted to go, etc, etc, etc. What happens in the end. You are still not happy. We would ALL have to have a mind set of working hard each day at making the world a better place. That’s why it will never work, because you could never get every one to think the same. But wouldn’t it e cool to see if it could work?

1. Joram Arentved posted the following on November 14, 2008 at 9:58 pm.

   I don’t more than you think that I can deny Our Moneyless Society to be
   as Anything Impossible, the way, that I look at it, is, however, another concept, our true nature as honest humans, an issue, on which I
   can of course only recommend you some more advice of mine, what do we achieve by permitting, say that George B. can control us through abuse of economic advantages? Greetings, arentved@in.com.

   Reply to Joram Arentved

I definitely agree on the possibility and the advantage of a money-less economy. We do not need money because money is the source of all evils.
We have more than enough biological resources. We have enough sources of energy for producing goods – e.g., geothermal, solar and wind energy, hydroelectric, nuclear energy, fossil fuels, and some others. And we have also the technology – nanotechnology, computer-based industries, and what-have-you.
What we need only now is the optimism, unity and the determination to get rid of a money-based system of economy.
Is anyone out there who knows a group or website that advocates a money-less economy so that I can give my moral support, at least, please let me know. Anyone who wants to talk with me about creating a group advocating a money-less economy, please contact me at my email – odyssey285@yahoo.com
By the way, where is the part 2 of the essay? I can’t wait to read it. Thanks a lot.

1. Rupert Russell posted the following on February 20, 2009 at 11:07 am.

   Hello Ali Dy Chin
   Check out the Venus Project.
   Best wishes
   Rupert

   Reply to Rupert Russell
   1. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on February 21, 2009 at 1:17 pm.

      Thanks Rupert. This site summarizes what I believe is the answer.

      http://www.thevenusproject.com/intro_main/whatis_tvp.htm

      Reply to Bob Wilkinson

A moneyless society will only occur by consensus. Stating that everything will be free if money were abolished is not true either; effort and materials go into any product. Once we realize how much time we waste keeping the economy functioning, we can begig to change the structure of material distribution. All one hears about today are deficits, bankruptcies, foreclosures, greed, Wall Street bailouts, and the endless financial analysts with their opinions on how to fix the economy. Our minds are constantly interrupted with commercials, and during social gatherings, the inevitable topic of conversation usually turns to money. We go to college with the goal of getting a good job that pays well. As a species we have not realized how much we waste of our lives with our endless preoccupation with money. It has become a sport also, something that computerized trading has made possible for the masses. Money has become a type of scorecard for those who are trying to get more than the next guy. I think we waste at lest half of all human effort keeping our money based economy functioning, and we’re not doing very well either. You are considered a nobody, or a kook if you think that money is the problem and should be eliminated. We have all heard the same arguement: If there were no money and everything were free, no one would work and chaos would take over. This is a true statement because we are not ready for a moneyless society yet. It will eventually happen, but not until we all get tired of keeping the present system in place. It must be a consensus, we all must agree. Trying to force a moneyless system with a strike will only cause more division. We need to educate each other, and discuss how to implement it. No one has all the answers. Until we all contribute what we can to get the necessary work done, we will have a money based system that forces us to work. Children would need to be raised with a good work, as well as play ethic, instead children are indoctrinated into a world where war, greed, and money are the primary motivating factors. We are not ready to abolish money yet because we have not learned to cooperate with each other, unless we are getting paid to do it. However a forum like this is part of the process, and gives me hope for a bright moneyless future for the people who have not yet been born.

test

My mother & God never approved of & anything about me, therefore, whatever He exists or not, I’m willing to tell you
my best news, an issue, whereon you & your humanrightattorney are still welcome to receive any of my further & most relevant information, to be
continued, so that I can at
least & long last more easily than up till now of course become & believe in & as much as possible about, what my fate mission
is, due to & still the best
result to be of an undeserved behavior, I still don’t know, don’t think, if I can explain to myself, & whereto there is still only ONE solution, to
be continued, greet’s, arentved@in.com.

1. ed posted the following on February 16, 2009 at 8:18 pm.

   nice to see the devil pop in for a comment on the issue although he needs to work on his english a little bit.

   Reply to ed
   1. Ali Chin posted the following on February 16, 2009 at 11:32 pm.

      The devil lurks as long as the world exists. But they are doomed to fail and doomed to hell – fire, forever.

      Reply to Ali Chin

I agree that it would be difficult to implement a moneyless society, with so much apathy and indoctrination in the world. I think however that people really do long for a more fulfilling life, free from the constraints of money. There are so many human resources going to waste because they want to earn enough money to have a comfortable life, rather than putting their resources and ingenuity into improving themselves and the world at large.

I concur with the idea of mobilising the world community at large, at present it is practically impossible to find any decent resources or groups around a moneyless society. What is needed is a single resource, a global website and community to give more power to the necessary ideas and concepts for our species’ and planet’s survival.

It seems to be an occasional forum posting is the only thing that search engines spit out…

Oh it’s really hard not to become really bitter and depressed with the state of the world! I need to find friends who actually give a crap about the world!
Peace.

1. Rupert Russell posted the following on February 25, 2009 at 6:42 pm.

   Andrew, Hi.
   My life was plodding along quite nicely; good business, beautiful wife, lovely kid, living the middle class dream if you will. Then someone flicked a switch in my deep subconscious, this stunningly simple but nonetheless amazing idea has knocked me sideways. It occupies my every waking thought, it is brilliant. If I happened to believed in any gods I would swear that I had found him or her, an epiphany if you will, in this one simple glorious idea.
   I have read stream after stream of claim and counter claim, 3, 4, 5 way arguments swinging back and forth, brilliant questions followed by eloquent and precise answers, stupid questions followed by polite and gentle answers and everything in between. In all my research I am yet to find a single plausible argument that a money-less is a non starter. (And don’t say human nature, that developes to fit the environment in which it thrives.)
   The human race as an organism is pretty ill, I am utterly convinced this is the cure.
   We must get organised, this idea needs to spread, take it to the next level and save the world.

   Reply to Rupert Russell
2. Lori Lee posted the following on May 21, 2009 at 2:23 pm.

   Thanks Andrew,

   Yours is reflective of many of the other kind and thoughtful posts on this topic. Something must be changing. Here I was, thinking that maybe we were all stuck in the ugly materialistic mindset of the 80s forever! Fortunately I was wrong. I think that maybe people are finally starting to understand that we should not, and indeed cannot put a price on life if we are to live in peace. Campaigns like Adbusters really drive this point home. They are the ones who created the ‘logo flag,’ in which the stars of the American flag are replaced by popular corporate logos. Also, there is one very disturbing image, also created by Adbusters, in which a newborn is tattooed with corporate logos. I am so relieved to see that we are all evolving past this brutal way of thinking and believing. If we were to eliminate the money system, wars would not be funded, nor would human trafficking. We might not eliminate crime altogether with the elimination of money, but I’m pretty certain the world would be a sweeter and more compassionate place to live if we were to do so. Finally, I am convinced that the elimination of the class system would do away with judgmental mindsets for good, and that would be a tremendous step forward. For example, I live in a poor neighborhood because I really need the benefit of rent control. Many would say that this in itself makes me a bad person. But poor people are not ‘bad’ or ‘lazy.’ They are simply down on their luck. Peace.

   Reply to Lori Lee

There’s already a huge movement started in Florida called the Venus Project. Check it out and send this link to all your friends. Read the concepts about a resourced based economy. Spread the word.

http://www.thevenusproject.com/intro_main/whatis_tvp.htm

1. Ali Chin posted the following on April 20, 2009 at 6:15 am.

   is it not just about money-making project? I doubt it.

   Reply to Ali Chin

Continued. George B. approves of no honesty, so I myself don’t see
any risk, whatsoever that I can fail to become & believe in & as much as possible about, what I sooner, as already said, didn’t know, didn’t think, if I could rely & count on to be my pers. case, because what was at stake for me, if anything, was my totally disturbed mother’s behavior, a Danish woman, who still gave me no opportunity that I could see myself as any true optimist, since they both, especially her husband to be, always controlled my opinion for me, if you right now feel any doubts, please just repeat them to me & any good human-right lawyer, like you & me aware that that money ideal can exist as no true �?? happiness, because The Corrupt have no right that they can decide for me, what my life is, so that I can of course tell & e.g. help myself become a true optimist & e.g. an expert on, what my fate mission is, honesty back then never translated to her self-determined way of thinking, if she DID count on me or not, laboral- & humanly spoken, she was so far & just a 7-y.o. child, forever to be, greet’s, arentved@in.com.

You called ME the Devil? Many people still approve of no honesty, so I don’t see any risk, whatsoever that I can fail to feel honest with you,
whatever God exists or not, greet’s, arentved@in.com.

1. Joram Arentved posted the following on May 21, 2009 at 2:47 pm.

   My next example is of course honesty, a constructive idea that I can of course & only testify to being happy to think about, & whereby our future can very easily become possible, that is, as good humans, aware that where there is no honesty, lies all the bad news, whatever it is, greet’s, arentved@in.com, ex.: what on Earth do you achieve
   by telling yourself that you can trust noone’s honesty? Your answer is a self denial of your own status as a human being, that’s all that you achieve.

   Reply to Joram Arentved

I don’t totally agree with you on
it, i.e. tech news, e.g. nano technology, however, if you can accept it, I can of course & only suggest you to start thinking about, what true values mean what to you, why & when, that’s so far all, there is
to it, greet’s, arentved@in.com.

After reading all these comments, I have to disagree with the basic premise of a moneyless society. I don’t think the problem is money, per se, but the assignment of value.

Money is not evil. If you strip away the preconceptions and jargon, it is nothing more than a standard we use to measure value. What has warped this simple (and useful) idea is that “the market” has become the exclusive means for assigning value.

As the past decade or so of bubbles and crashes have proven, “the market” has no inherent intelligence. There is no “invisible hand” guiding us to optimal or even sensible outcomes.

Take oil pricing for example. There is no earthly reason why oil prices should fluctuate as much as they do. Supply and demand arguments fall flat, because the supplies of oil are known and and demand for oil can be predicted fairly easily.

Despite these knowns, the price of oil dropped from $140 to $35 dollars per barrel in one year. Why is that? Oil exporting nations did not increase their output by 400 percent and oil importing nations did not decrease their consumption by 75 percent, so the only explanation for the price swing is that some inherent feature of the market was responsible.

What needs to be done is not abolish money (which would be similar to saying we should abolish math or english) but instead come up with a more sensible way to assign value. One which factors in mid and long term goals at the individual, national and global level. A non-trivial task, but one whose exploration would be fascinating and whose benefits could possibly foster a whole new economic system.

1. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on July 10, 2009 at 1:58 am.

   I do not agree that abolishing money is the equivalent of abolishing math or English; that is ridiculous. The “Market” is based on fear and greed, the two most despicable attributes of the human condition. What is necessary is a to encourage cooperation instead of the encouraging competition. Competition dominates all facets of human behavior. Who’s the best at this, who has the most of that, who is the smartest, and who has the most money? We really need to think of ourselves, humanity as a whole, as a cohesive body, together, as one, in this journey we call life. The quest for money leads us in the direction of working against each other, instead of working with each other towards the common goal of enjoying life. Pricing, bubbles, and demand are all just smokescreens obscuring us from the purpose of why we are here in the first place. Do we really want to spend our lives supporting a model, the economic model to be exact, that is driving us away from the real reason why we are here in the first place, which is to enjoy life? If you want to waste your life counting meaningless dollars, and at the same time thinking that that is the way in which we assign value to labor and material, you will never find any agreement because everyone has different valuation methods and ideas; we will be working against each other forever if we continue on our present course. We need to let it all go if we are to survive. Trying to force the economic model to determine value will never work, because we don’t agree on the exchange methods. If we are to rise above instinctual animalistic behaviors that drive the economy, like those exhibited by vultures grabbing for the last bit of carrion, we need to use our intelligence if we are to ever end this vicious cycle that has created such distress.

   Reply to Bob Wilkinson
   1. KT posted the following on July 10, 2009 at 3:32 am.

      What is necessary is a to encourage cooperation instead of the encouraging competition. Competition dominates all facets of human behavior. Who�??s the best at this, who has the most of that, who is the smartest, and who has the most money? We really need to think of ourselves, humanity as a whole, as a cohesive body, together, as one, in this journey we call life. The quest for money leads us in the direction of working against each other, instead of working with each other towards the common goal of enjoying life.

      Not all cooperation is good and not all competition is bad. Context is everything. Any new economy would need to develop tools to measure when the probability for cooperation produces good or optimal outcomes and when competition produces these results.

      Personally, I can’t envision any scenario without money or something like it. This isn’t because I’m filled with greed, but because in a complex society, my skill set occupies, by nature, a limited market niche. There are only so many people who will be interested in what I have to offer.

      On the flip side, my interests and wants may be (and most likely are) completely different from the farmer that raises the tomatoes I eat. There is no overlap between us other than the tomatoes themselves. Without money. what possible mechanism could I use to get my hands on the yummy tomatoes the farmer grows?

      Someone who decides their true calling in life is to sculpt giant benzine molecules out of toothpicks and moose droppings will likely have a following of exactly one. As a society, there is no benefit to indulging or compensating this person’s labors, no matter how hard he might work fabricating these odd masterpieces.

      Money is not only a vehicle for greed, it can also be a reality check on our own flaws or obsessions. The moose-dropping benzine sculptor would quickly find that no one else shared his obsession and starvation would force him to re-enter the world of the living.

      Reply to KT
      1. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on July 10, 2009 at 3:10 pm.

         I realize that it is difficult to imagine a system of material distribution that doesn’t involve money, and that arguments for rationalizing its existence are easy to invent because it’s the only system we know, are accustomed to, and have used for all of our lives. Just for fun, imagine a world where we are able to get the work accomplished without the use of money. It doesn’t mean that your little niche will become useless, as there are few of us who are totally self-sufficient. Much work that is done today is useless; i.e. all jobs that involve the economic system: bankers, stock brokers, the IRS, TV game shows, cashiers, tax preparers, the US Mint System, Wall Street executives, financial accountants, retirement planners, insurance companies, most of government because of its primary role is redistributing money, gambling, office jobs that involve budgeting and keeping tract of money, to name a few. If all the people involved in these useless money jobs were involved in getting the real work that needs to be done, all of us could work much less that we do now, and could have more time to enjoy life and the arts, study, invent the next technological discovery etc. You might ask without the motivating power of money, what would motivate people to do anything at all? I do agree with you that a moneyless system would not work with the present population because we have been indoctrinated into the economic system since birth. It is so ingrained into our consciousness that it would take nothing less than for everyone to get a lobotomy to remove it’s grip on the human mind, however, that does not mean we should not explore the concept of how to implement a moneyless society. Our discussions are the seeds that need to be sewn. Children need to be raised with a different set of values, cooperation instead of the selfishness, the desire to contribute to the necessary work that needs to be done instead of trying to get as much as one can for the smallest effort. We are indeed a flawed species. Most of us are not completely honest, which is the root of all our problems, and most people will take advantage of those less fortunate or intelligent for selfish economic gain whenever possible, and rationalize it as the American way (if I don’t do it someone else will). Why should the people who do the hardest work be rewarded with the least economic reward, i.e. those who work harvesting the food that sustains our lives? We do it because we can, because we are selfish, because there is nothing they can do about it. Would you slave in 100-degree heat for minimum wage? No Americans would today. I know life is said not to be fair, and that it’s not a perfect world, but I think that’s no excuse to not strive to make life better for everyone, and believe that a world without using money as the common denominator for all human activities would help achieve that objective.

         Reply to Bob Wilkinson
      2. KT posted the following on July 10, 2009 at 3:50 pm.

         I agree with a lot of what you say, but I think your concept of “hard work” is a bit limited. “Picking vegetables in 100 degree heat” is indeed hard work, but it doesn’t require much effort to acquire that skill. By contrast, chemical engineering, medicine, physics or any of the thousands of specialized professions that have evolved over the centuries, require enormously more effort than learning to pick vegetables. Any chemical engineer, or physicist, or doctor can learn to pick vegetables on a few hours, if they absolutely had to, but not one vegetable picker could walk into a lab and synthesize a green fuel, walk into a hospital and remove a tumor, or discover a high temperature superconductor.

         Humanity long ago transcended mere subsistence. As I replied to another poster, I think the solution is not to eliminate money, but eliminate all economic privacy. That’s a really radical statement, but if you let your mind follow the tendrils of that idea, you’ll see that many of money’s supposed evils would be wiped away if a full accounting of every transaction and wealth accumulation were public knowledge because we as a society would have a concrete way to determine how important someone else’s contributions are to the world.

         Reply to KT

I totally agree with you, Bob, if The Corrupt have to keep on existing, even want to, it’s not my totally personal conviction that I can fail to tell you that there’s more at stake with that money ideal than without it. Greetings, arentved@in.com, it’s above & 1st of all our status as human beings, who after all realised that they could not get away with it.

Hi all,

I have been following this exchange with interest. In a sense it is somewhat misleading to talk of getting rid of money. Yes, money will go in a sane society but what will primarily go are the underlying economic relationships that necessitate money – private (including state) ownership of the mean of production. Such relationships give rise the need for economic exchange and hence money. The alternative is to abolish or eliminate these relationships and permit free unmediated access to the goods and services that society produces by the voluntary cooperative efforts of its members.

Once you grasp this many of the perceived difficulties of a non money-based economy fall away. KT raises a number of these. One such is this:
“Money is not evil. If you strip away the preconceptions and jargon, it is nothing more than a standard we use to measure value”. When you think about it, what this is doing is projecting into a future moneyless society the economic exigencies of a money-based economy. Exchange necessitates the measurement of “value” to enable enable the exchange of equal values to happen in the first place. In a moneyless society, there is still calculation – calculation in kind (Otto Neurath)- but not monetary calculation. I wrote a long article on this some years ago which people on this list might find of interest http://www.cvoice.org/cv3cox.htm

Another point that KT seems overly preoccupied with is the question of work. Who is going to do the dirty work, for example? This question of work needs to be put in context. For starters, the majority of work that is undertaken in the formal sector of our capitalist economy today would become completely superfluous in a future moneyless economy. Such work is linked to the maintenance and operation of a capitalist economy – occupations that range from the banking sector to pay departments to door to door salepersons and a thousand and one other. These will completely disappear in a free access non-monetary economy, effectively more than doubling the available workforce (and resources) for socially useful production.Or to put it another way, we will only need to work less than half the amount of time we do today to maintain our current standard of living. Having removed class ownership of the means of production individuals will be in control of their conditions and terms of work which will make work a much congenial and creative process. We know that, even today, under capitalism there is a huge amount of voluntary work that is undertaken much of it very dirty and dangerous – what could be more dangerous than risking your life at sea to rescue others? – which is completely unpaid work. So there is nothing in human nature that prohibts voluntary work. In addition, a moneyless economy will be in my view a moral economy in a way that is not possible under capitalism: it is predicated on the mutual recognition of everyone of our mutual interdependence. This will permit the uninhibited operation of moral sanctions that will work to ensure cooperation in a way that is not possible in an atomised competitve society based on individualistic endeavour. Also, in a free access society, the only way in which one can could meaningfully obtain the esteem of one’s fellows is through one’s contribution to society not through the conspicuous consumption of wealth produced by society (which would become pointless when its freely accessible). Finally, of course, it needs to be said that without meaningful creative activity – work – we wither as human beings. Work is not only something that needs to be done to enable us to live ; it is something that is itself a need. We need work not only for its consequences but as an activity in itself. Trying sitting on your backside for several days doing nothing and you will soon discover this. Most normal healthy individuals will be crawling up the wall by the end of day two.

Cheers

Robin

1. KT posted the following on July 11, 2009 at 6:29 am.

   Very interesting (and very dense) paper. Gave me a lot to chew on.

   A few questions:
   In the last paragraph of “Anatomy of a socialist economy->Calculation in kind” you state:

   “One of the advantages of a system of calculation in kind is that it opens up the possibility of a much more rounded and nuanced approach to decision-making and gives more weight to factors such as environmental concerns often overlooked in market calculations.”

   I can see how your arguments hold up in relation to physical goods, but I’m not sure I follow you when extending this to environmental concerns. “Calculation in kind” seems no more equipped to evaluate environmental impact than capitalism.

   Second: You don’t really address the concept of personal possessions. Do people own their home? Their car? The items in their home?

   Third: What about crime? It is a simple fact that some people enjoy breaking the rules. What do you do about them?

   Fourth: While it might be tolerable, in the abstract, to say that everyone’s contribution to society has value, emotionally, I don’t believe we will ever reach this level of egalitarianism. Someone who studies intensely for ten years to be a doctor will be justifiably resentful of some lazy bozo who spends all his time skiing. There are people like that. They could care less how much you might resent them. They’ll just laugh, flip you the bird and head back up the slope. How do deal with such folks?

   Fifth: What about luxury? Personally, I would love to own a sailboat and a Bugatti Veyron. Not because of any status they may impart, but because I’ve always had a dream of taking off in a sailboat for a year. As to the Veyron, it is the most kick-ass automobile ever produced by the mind of man. Are these sorts of indulgences prohibited?

   Reply to KT

To everyone here, very thoughtful comments indeed. I enjoyed and was enlightened by the exchange between Robin and KT, and will need to study Robin’s ideas presented at http://www.cvoice.org/cv3cox.htm. I do not claim to know how to implement a moneyless society, other than to discuss what I believe are its merits and advantages in comparison to our present system. Hopefully if the movement takes on momentum, more and more people will become convinced of its merits and make the appropriate changes that can help to implement such a system. I cannot pretend to know the exact details of such a system, only that the details will be part of a work in progress. The unintended consequences, both good and bad will be discovered, and appropriate changes will undoubtedly need to be made along the way. The verbal jousting at some point becomes counterproductive; this is not a mere contest of wits or who can construct the best sentences, or about who is right or wrong; it is about what is best for the human race and the health of this planet if we are to survive. A renaissance of thought, a worldwide consensus, needs to occur, and that can only take place when the old production line ways of thought are replaced with a more humane model, one that values both the human and natural environment rather than the bottom line profit motive alone.

Peace to you all,
Bob

The concept of ‘luxury’ is a funny one. You use the Veyron as an example. What is it about the Veyron that makes it so special? Is it because its the first road car to push out 1000 bhp? Is it the pinnacle of auto-motive engineering? No. It was for a while, but there are faster cars available that are a fraction of the ‘cost’. In such a society all vehicles would be built to this standard and people use vehicles for many different purposes. Vehicles would no longer reflect status. (Although they would be powered electrically; the demise of the internal combustion engine is imminent thanks to the development of new battery tech at St Andrews University in Scotland).
Other important questions might be who gets the best wine? or the penthouse? or the finest cheeses? The idea that some wines are worth 50 times more than others is just a perception, a marketing tool, that wine grown on this particular slope in that region and matured using a very rare Alsatian oak make it any ‘better’ than a wine grown in the next valley and strained through my old socks is just nonsense. Blind tastings have proved so called wine experts wrong again and again and again. De Beers diamonds are a great example of orchestrated scarcity, of maintaining the perceived value of something by limiting its supply.
We are bombarded by a very complex assortment of marketing apparatus daily. Strategies that have taken brilliant people many years to develop are used to insure that products are chosen and consumed by us that reflect and amplify our life decisions. In a moneyless society all this would vanish, advertising, marketing, the meaning of stuff would change. It would simply have functionality.
Funny word ‘luxury’, when you think about it.
Peace

1. KT posted the following on July 12, 2009 at 2:50 pm.

   The 1000 bhp isn’t what attracts me about the Veyron. I’d be perfectly happy with an all electric version with top end of 150 mph. It’s the look, stance and details that attract me. It is, to my eye, the closest thing to automotive perfection I’ve ever seen.

   In a moneyless society all this would vanish, advertising, marketing, the meaning of stuff would change. It would simply have functionality.

   That’s part of the problem I’m having with some of these ideas. I don’t think any of us would miss the constant bombardment from advertising, but quality and beauty are every bit as important to a product as functionality.

   A bunch of chips epoxied to a piece of plywood, might have better performance than a MacBook Pro. But, if given the choice, all but a few die hards would choose the MacBook because it is a gorgeous piece of engineering.

   We covet things not because we have been brainwashed by advertising, but because some products satisfy our appreciation of quality, beauty, horsepower etc…

   In his essay, Robin explores how a socialist economy could avoid the evils of central planning, but (perhaps due to the limited scope of an essay) never addresses how his decentralized production units would cope with the very human need for variation.

   From his luxury comments, I don’t believe Robin thinks there should be only one kind of sedan, one kind of pickup, one kind of van, etc, but when you introduce dozens or hundreds of different vehicle models, you cannot help but introduce waste. This puts a chink in his argument that socialism is inherently more efficient than capitalism. Once variation is introduced, both systems produce copious amounts of waste in the form of “unsold” product.

   You could limit this waste somewhat by making vehicle models “to order” but then you have to deal with the very real problem of retooling costs. Do you maintain different production lines for each model? If so, you’re still talking about enormous costs in setting up these different lines. Obviously, in a moneyless society these “costs” would take on a different meaning, but they would still be there.

   Reply to KT
   1. Rupert Russell posted the following on July 13, 2009 at 11:43 am.

      KT, you are obviously clear thinking and of sound mind, may I be so bold as to point you in the direction of a book I have just read, Cradle to Cradle by McDonough and Braungart it’s a design concept/philosophy piece based on many processes, agricultural, architectural, manufacturing, it’s about what we produce and the way we produce it. One of the main subjects it tackles is waste. Waste is very bad, but you already know this. Could we ‘design’ a society where there was no waste? Like ants? The book argues that this is possible.
      Also take a look at The Spirit Level by Wilkinson and Pickett, a study of socio epidemiology, the book sets out to prove why more equal societies always do better, I could expand on the contents but I’ll leave that for you to explore.
      These are all topics that have come to my attention only in the last few months but I am fascinated by them and their implications.
      Alternatives ideas to our current system are varied and exciting, somethings are happening now and some may take generations. From small acorns large trees are grown.
      You talked about no private money in one of your earlier posts, that is pretty much what we have now. Unless you have some stuffed under your mattress, there will be a record of that somewhere. Could you expend on this for me. Are you talking about total fiscal transparency? Accountability? Auditing? Dare I say honesty? You need to read ‘The best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One’ by William K Black, bit of an eye opener.
      You’ll have to forgive the way my thoughts jump around, I am not a natural typer, more of a talker.
      It’s very easy to say ‘get rid of money and all the worlds ills will vanish’ and I don’t think for a second it would ever happen in my life time, it will eventually, but not tomorrow.
      Peace

      Reply to Rupert Russell
      1. KT posted the following on July 13, 2009 at 6:36 pm.

         You talked about no private money in one of your earlier posts, that is pretty much what we have now. Unless you have some stuffed under your mattress, there will be a record of that somewhere. Could you expend on this for me. Are you talking about total fiscal transparency?

         What I envisioned (and have since abandoned) was some sort of smart-phone based graphics application that would display the many tendrils of the supply chain for a given product and allow users to see where all the constituent parts come from. Different aspects of the companies such as commitment to renewable energy, proper hazardous waste disposal, pay fairness etc would be displayed in color to give a consumer point of purchase info about the issues important to them. After thinking about it though, the complexities of actually implementing something like this, would be daunting to say the least. It’s not worth it.

         Last night I had my “aha” moment regarding a moneyless society. I “get it” now and am really in awe at how elegant it is. To take my thinking to the next level, I’m conducting pretend interviews with some die-hard free marketers like Bill O’Reilly, Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh imagining their criticisms and thinking about what sorts of facts would be needed to parry their arguments.

         I think their most vehement criticisms would fall in the areas of the “freeloader factor,” “innovation” and the obligatory “anti-American.” It’s proving to be an interesting exercise…

         Reply to KT
      2. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on July 14, 2009 at 1:50 am.

         KT, it is more than an exercise, my friend. Fox News, O’Reilly, Hannity, Limbaugh, and Savage, present the brainwashed mindset that the economic machine needs to perpetuate its existence. Their influence is something that cannot be underestimated. The ditto-heads and their right-wing followers have created their comfort zone through the power of the media that has allowed them the vast dissemination of ideals that are completely counterproductive to the establishment of an egalitarian system that is the most fair to every individual on this planet, regardless or race, creed, color, mindset, you name it. There is no reason for a monopoly. When we were in our ancestral past, cave man days, this may have been the case when we needed a big-mouthed strong leader to protect us from predators. It is my assertion that we are all strong enough to lead ourselves, and on extension, each other to an enlightened lifestyle free from economic restraints. We only need to assert these facts to everyone and anyone we come into contact with, and explain the common sense and self-evident truths that are inherent in a moneyless society. I have been labeled a kook, but I am not deterred. I know what is right and what should be and will solicit this message to my dying day.

         Reply to Bob Wilkinson
      3. Sixpm posted the following on July 14, 2009 at 2:06 am.

         Hi Bob, I’m too a kook, and have happily lived everyday as my last, totally agree with your point of view and values. I’m in contact with lots of people with the same heart from world all over, and I do believe it’ll be a matter of time for this change to take place, as courage is indeed on the rise.

         Reply to Sixpm
      4. KT posted the following on July 14, 2009 at 3:53 am.

         it is more than an exercise, my friend. Fox News, O�??Reilly, Hannity, Limbaugh, and Savage, present the brainwashed mindset that the economic machine needs to perpetuate its existence.

         I’m the problem solver type and the best way I can think of to solve the problem of mainstreaming the idea of a moneyless society is to prepare for the arguments of the most ardent and powerful true believers. That’s what I meant by “exercise.”

         I don’t necessarily agree that O’Reilly, Limbaugh and Hannity are brainwashed. I think they honestly believe that they are defenders of the American dream and just haven’t ever considered how a different economic system could resuscitate that dream for their legions of listeners. Hell, a few days ago even I called money “one of mankind’s greatest inventions.”

         Try to imagine having a discussion with these guys, one on one, over a beer. Away from the cameras, and their on-air personalities, I think the ensuing debate would actually be quite interesting and invigorating.

         Having just gone through my own transformation, I think the biggest obstacles to getting the idea out there are what I’m calling the “freeloader” factor, the “who does the dirty work” factor and investigating whether competition is really the best engine of innovation

         The “freeloader factor” is the idea that if everything was free, a majority of the population would just stop working. One way to research this would be to interview people who have experienced a sudden and dramatic liberation form all financial worries, lottery winners, recipients of unexpected inheritances , stock market windfalls, etc… to see what they did with their newfound freedom.

         While not definitive, I went to the Powerball site and read about several year’s worth of winners. Almost every one said they would not change their lives dramatically. They would pay off bills, help relatives, take a nice vacation, but most of them said they would keep working. These were “day of claim” statements, so it would be important to see where they are now. If they did in fact stay productive, this would be a powerful counter to the belief that in a moneyless society, everyone would revert to laziness and frivolity.

         I still don’t have satisfactory responses to the “who would do the dirty work” or “competition/innovation” problems, but am trying to think up ways to investigate them.

         Reply to KT
      5. Sixpm posted the following on July 14, 2009 at 5:13 am.

         KT, It is great to see that you begin to agree that we can live in a moneyless society. I have family and friends who are loaded and need not worry for the rest of their life, but they all continue to work and having exactly the same holidays as everyone else, because they need to be normal. However, the ones who are not in normal job will find means of getting out of bed, this is to work either for or in charity organisations. I even have a friend who take his own inititive to visit poor counturies and build schools and supply them with basic items like books.

         Once the competition and struggle to make ends meet are over, our spirituality will kick in because we no longer need to use our animal instinct to survive. We will have no reason to fight and hurt ‘others’ in order to sustain our very existence.

         Reply to Sixpm
      6. Rupert Russell posted the following on July 14, 2009 at 10:25 am.

         Hi KT, nice to see you hop on board for a little look around.
         I don’t know if you are aware of the unemployment figures coming out of the US, currently at 9.5%? They are predicted it to peak at 15%-16% in Q1-Q2 next year and are cautious estimates. These are recorded unemployed (U6). Add another 10% for unregistered and you get 1 in 4 able Americans out of work. On top of that, when and if the bad debt is flushed from the system and the US and the UK return to some sort of ‘growth’ the unemployment figure is predicted to reset at around 9% permanent unemployed! Which means for those of us left in work we will have to be paying a base tax level of 65% just to maintain basic public amenities, law and order, schools and health care.
         You ponder what will happen in a resource based economy when know one is doing the dirty work and people are lazing about all day waiting for handouts while an elite few are making the world go round! Sound familiar?
         I’ve asked my self this question; if I didn’t have to work what would I do? Then I look at my son. Happiest kid on the planet by my reckoning. Not a care in the world. Spends all day learning, playing, falling over, eating, interacting with other kids, putting a smile on my face and sometimes getting up my nose. We are learning, problem solving animals and are capable of true magnificence and joy. We just need to relearn what being human is all about.
         I read somewhere that for the first time in modern history there are more people in voluntary work than in paid work! Amazing statistic that and it’s a trend that can only continue in one direction. Another stat; for the first time in recorded history poor people are, on average, fatter then rich people. Now that says something about ‘progress’!

         Reply to Rupert Russell

I do believe that all the wealthy individuals you know are only dummies of the Rothschilds. Recently, Rio Tinto executives in China are arrested for spying or stealing state secrets. This is a proof that Rothschilds are active players. Please visit at least iamthewitness.com They control all the banks and all the vital companies and all the wealth of the world.

I am quite reserve in the idea of building the money less society and in fact, i don’t agree at least in this moment.

1. do we really need a money-less society?
2. will such society solve our problem? or in another way round it is when our problems resolved, this society will exist?
3. can our problems really be able to resolved eventhough we have changed as well as on our edcucations…. how a consenses be reached? by majority again?
4. how is such society differs from an Utopia which only exists in our imaginations?
5. is money the root of our problems? or are we missing the point?
6. can we just think small rather than such big and board?
7. should we put more resources on discussing and revealing unfair policies or suggestions which can help improve the community we living in?
8. without money and without people who eg. work as investment bankers or other people who earn in financial field rely on spaculations, will someone spaculate on other things when there is no money?
etc etc…
9. Money in the very basic sense server as a standard to make us quantify our service and products produced, which make us easier and more convenient to exchange what we need from others who have them.

Imagine I am a hungry dancer, without money, should I perform a dance while i am starve to death but for a piece of bread in front of the baker? If the baker don’t need a bread, should i go on to another baker who wants to watch dance performance for him to give me the piece of bread? how many baker i have to go before i find the baker who need my dance performance?

Money can just eliminate those problem, makes our live easier, save our time and resources in doing what we want to, instead of wasting our efforts. Without money, as per above, our lives is just difficult.

Without money as an unit or standard for exchange, another measurement might exists like gold / oil / natural resources / or in the very beginning we use shells / or even somehow in the barter economy, who own the most land, most men, most maybe even apples!……..

why money-less society can help? the idea behind building a money-less society might be good. (subject to further discussion). however, the direction to have a money-less society can be wrong.

Should the society be money-less or greedy-less or power-less or wealthy-less or meat eater-less or desire-less or lazy-less? which one is better? or actually greedy-less / lazy-less / voilent-less socity more important than a money-less society?

People fight for money only? how about those compete for power? envy? what makes a person selfish? money again? or can be other things or issue? Painter A can envy the other painter B who paints better than himself or envy the other painter C who received more admirations even though he is just a freshman… not for money..

If we are moving others to go to the wrong directions, which base on our mistaken judgements / misunderstandings, we might still be doing bad. We must be very careful in initiating or promoting any movements eventhough we are all aiming to build a good and better society.

Lets discuss.

1. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on July 13, 2009 at 11:33 am.

   As I have said before, I don’t claim to have all the answers, or really know how such a complete shift in material distribution methods will take place, only that is such a change were to take place, the vast majority of people would have to agree on such a system.

   You ask do we really need a moneyless system. The reason I believe so is evidenced in the current economic situation the world finds itself. There are children who need to be taught, and teachers ready to teach them, but the budget cannot allocate the funds. There are houses sitting vacant and vast numbers of homeless people, most of which would rather be working than living behind a bush or down by the river, because the homeless person cannot find a job, mostly because of automation and outsourcing. There are vast types of infrastructure that need to be built or repaired, a great pool of labor and materials waiting to be used, but the finances are not available. These are but a few examples of the problems that the money system has created. I believe money used to be necessary, but it is now obsolete. We waste too much effort trying to force an unworkable system that creates boom and bust cycles. The economic system is the source of much human misery, and really only benefits the few percent who control the vast majority of economic wealth.

   It is my opinion the we could have a much more efficient system, and happier human race, if we did not have to stop at the cash register on the way out of the store, or fill out timecards, get checks from the payroll department, deposit them in a bank, pay bills, balance the checkbook, pay taxes, get loans, etc. It is an unnecessary process that makes everything about life more difficult.

   I really don’t expect to convince anyone of my arguments for a moneyless society. It seems that we could discuss it forever and never come to an agreement, as evidenced by the posts in this blog. Perhaps it will take some worldwide cataclysm that forces such a system into place because of the difficulty that people have even considering a moneyless system. It seems so simple to me, but I am just one person, and not everyone thinks like I do, not that I am better or worse than you or anyone else, because I am not. Money seems to be a part of our DNA, something I have reluctantly learned to live with and accept, like the handicapped person who accepts being paraplegic, but hopes for a scientific breakthrough. Like the handicapped person who dreams of walking, who cannot mend his nerves, I am in a similar place with my vision of a moneyless society, with no way of really knowing how to get such a system started.

   Reply to Bob Wilkinson
   1. Sixpm posted the following on July 13, 2009 at 11:51 am.

      We are certainly not lacking in will for a moneyless society, only in numbers, which is on the increase from the number of discontent people all over the globe. All we have to do is to wait patiently for this to collective thought energy to gather momentum, no one expects the Berlin wall could come down so swiftly did we?

      Reply to Sixpm
   2. Hecate posted the following on July 13, 2009 at 12:44 pm.

      I would like to give kudos to Bob Wilkinson for introducing compassion to this debate. I think we need more people like him in the world, with a very healthy balance between head and heart. At the moment, we live in a society dominated by brutal rationalizations, whether it be for war or money. If someone in your family is murdered, are you really going to rationalize away why it happened? Most likely not. You will feel grief and then try to work through it. But we do rationalize violence in society, perhaps because it is simply easier for us, even though there lies the path of denial. Right now we are experiencing a more subtle kind of violence, what with bankers or government officials paying themselves whatever they feel is due them. Of course it becomes a little less subtle when it comes to children starving.

      I think we can do better than be clever monkeys playing around with money or making tech gadgets for yuppies. Speaking of technology – why not make it more available to under-served communities? Tech companies could easily set up charities to do so, yet they don’t. There may be a scant few non-profits who set up such programs.

      I feel that these times call for eradicating what Buddhists call the ‘monkey mind.’ To me that means refraining from being distracted from superficial issues in our lives and looking for deeper meaning as to why we are here. I don’t know about anyone else here, but I doubt I’ll be on my death bed bragging about how much money I had, or having held a position in X corporation as some haughty big-whig fat cat. Most people look back over their lives and ask themselves whether they had meaningful relationships with others. Most who are not automatons, anyway.

      I treat my money the way it should be treated – with total detachment. I do my best not to put emotional value on it. I save easily, because I realize that dirty dollars usually have more meaning for others than they do for me. And when I have any extra, I do indeed give to charities. I am not saying I’m better than anyone for doing so. I am just suggesting that we not be so attached to money, which is a completely imaginary construct, as so many things in our delusional society are.

      Reply to Hecate

You then tell ME that it can’t happen tomorrow, so it’s not even indi-rectly MY opinion that I can ’still’ to testify to being happy to live on another planet, if it needs to exist, e.g. Mars, you still approve of a ’sought’ money opinion, which is thus, to me & meanwhile another(!) repetition that you though indirectly seek to treat yourself like a slave to corruption, be alright with it, so that I can of course give myself a chance to feel like a true optimist, always to be, sin-cere, openminded, honest, greetings, arentved@in.com, The Most Honest are always likely to be treated like a ’sought’ compromise, The Cor- rupt so to speak ‘on reverse,’ their excuse for it: An attorney, who didn’t exist, so I never allow myself that I can ’still’ fail to testi-fy to being honest with you, apart from being honest, I can of course & also make an unwanted mistake about something, which IS, however, one little & meaningless detail, it’s only human, such a mistake, be- cause you must start by being honest with yourself.

It’s still the truth, anyone of you, that money ideal is totally out of any relevant question, which is thus, to myself & meanwhile another
repetition that the more, George B. exists as A Free Reptile(!), the more there will be & IS bad news on its way to & from me, ‘better safe
than sorry,’ so that I can of course find & treat us all like true optimists, maybe to be & e.g. experts at finding out, who is who, why & when, that’s still our future, i.e. as honest humans, an honesty, The Corrupt still don’t approve of, greetings, arentved@in.com.

1. KT posted the following on July 15, 2009 at 1:31 am.

   Hi Joram,

   The question of money is not irrelevant, it’s extremely important. Unless moneyless society enthusiasts can address the criticisms of capitalists, head on, there’s not a snowball’s chance in hell that this issue will ever graduate beyond comment threads on backwater discussion boards.

   Even with solid arguments, money is woven so tightly into the fabric of society, that opinion makers will be able to casually dismiss the idea of a moneyless society, by rolling their eyes, twirling their finger next to their temple and a silently mouthing “looney toons.”

   If you want a moneyless society, think about how to counter the arguments of die-hard capitalists.

   Reply to KT

Re comments from all:
First I do really admire Bob for a very kind and positive insight for a money-less society. I totally agree with Sixpm as well saying we need more people like Bob having such good mind-set for a better world.

For myself, I do not rule out the possibilities of a money-less society and I do not disagree or disapprove such society as long as it improves our standard of living.

As per my understanding after reading the above comments, what bothers us a lot and what makes people like Bob come up with the intention for a money-less society is mainly about the inequality and unbalance distribution of resources that happen everyday on Earth.

The inequality is kept being more serious, which worsen under the operation of our current monetary system. Small group of people with power use their dirty and corrupted means to control, to influence, to monopolize our resources for their own interests.

I do not rule out the possibility of a money-less society but I doubt its effectiveness in helping us solve the problem of inequality, in helping us raise our standard of livings. This is the reason why I have so much queries on the operation and by what means we can reach this state?

I doubt its effectiveness doesn�??t mean I am satisfied with the world nowadays and the monetary system among all of us. I doubt its effectiveness doesn�??t mean I am corrupt or dishonest. Also, it doesn�??t mean I want to keep few million and billion of hard cash at the end of my time in this world.

I doubt even if we have reached a vast consensus on a money-less society, will inequality still exists and why and why not?

Lets take an example, an adult who is over-weight (eg. 400 lbs) is unhealthy. He eats junk food everyday, eats a dozen pieces of cakes full of cream daily, eat lots of meat a day, only drink full fat milk, no water, no exercises, etc..

In order to become healthy again, this guy has to change his eating habit all over. With much much less calories a day, but how? Start from the creamy cakes! He eats fewer and fewer cakes a day until one day he eats no more cake. He is still overweight although slightly better than before. Then he drinks less full fat milk and more water a day, his condition improves but still overweight�?�.. Finally, he back to a balanced diet but still not healthy, because he does no exercises at all�?�.

The above story is what I want to indicate, for a society without money, just the life of this over-weight guy without creamy cakes, will the society be a healthy society just by becoming money-less? Will inequality, unfairness, discriminations etc. etc. disapper and everyone lives happily, harmoniously, co-operatively and safely? Obviously not.

Money is just one of the means and elements that lead to the current issue we face, but not all. A piece of cake even its full of cream can not be harmful if you just take one or two occasionally. Just like money, its not evil if you make use of it wisely. Language is essential because it is a way to communicate, but we all can use language to say bad words of others, spread gossips, etc.

Self-consciousness, respect, fairness, and a caring society are few criteria that build up an utopia. We work bit by bit to march toward this direction.

Hope you all understand the above and trust debate is always essential for us to reach our same goal for a better world, with or without money-less society. Through in-depth discussions, our plans and directions can always be made more refined with less flaw.

1. Sixpm posted the following on July 15, 2009 at 6:30 am.

   Hi Dennis,

   The reason the guy got fat in the first place is that our food manufacturers is only interested in profit and not our health, so they made the food without the ‘correct’ intend. These corrupted corporation works hand in hand to produce food that is harmful to us and the same people then supplies drugs that suppose to keep us ‘healthy’. I believe that there are lots of illness can be cured with our pharmaceutical companies, but they also has chosen just to keep us on a ‘drip’ to squeeze every penny where they can.

   Ever thought that most of our worlds government use war to ‘make peace’, they sell arms to keep smaller countries in ‘democracy’?

   Most people are just too naive (including me for a long time), thinking others would behave with dignity and honesty. I’ve now learn to see the world in a different light, all the more we should waken others to see where we are heading with the present economic policies. I’m sure when these fact are exposed and becomes common knowledge, most people will begin to demand for a better system.

   Reply to Sixpm
2. Toby posted the following on July 15, 2009 at 12:16 pm.

   Hi Dennis,

   see money as a rationing tool. Goods and services need to be rationed when they are available in scarcity, not abundance. From the coupling of money with scarcity arises all sorts of perceptions about life and how it works: what competition is, that greed is “normal,” that success is having more than others, etc. So money is more than just a neutral tool. Not only is it inseparably joined with scarcity and therefore want, it inescapably becomes a very potent symbol for things like status and success, and shapes our understanding of what those things are, not to mention “value.”

   Society without money would necessarily be profoundly different. No conspicuous consumption, no marketing, no competition for scarce resources, no nations, no “growth,” total transparency in the public domain, and so on. It is impossible to know what this would do to human behaviour, but the effects of abundance on our civilisation would be deep and far reaching indeed.

   But none of this means an absence of problems. Indeed, the challenge of living a life which has to be shaped by your own imagination and creativity is a daunting one. No job telling you where to be and what to do, no boss, no “father-figure” state. Just freedom. Think of how people cope with retirement, how they cope with a sudden lottery win. It’s not that easy. So post-scarcity is not post-problems, just new problems. As with all change some problems will be solved, new ones introduced, and so it will go on forever. Without problems and challenges, life would be boring. To expect a money-less society to deliver nirvana is naive and missing the point, to say it is a bad idea because it does not deliver nirvana is also missing the point. It is simply the next logical step of humanity’s progress, should we manage to survive this current set of issues. Our challenge is to make it work as best we can.

   Peace
   Toby

   Reply to Toby
   1. Rupert Russell posted the following on July 15, 2009 at 2:21 pm.

      Well said Bro.
      Peace

      Reply to Rupert Russell
3. Alvin posted the following on July 16, 2009 at 9:16 am.

   Dennis, very well written

   It’s ironic Sixpm replied you, “Most people are just too naive (including me for a long time), thinking others would behave with dignity and honesty.” Aren’t that “dignity” and “honesty” the fundamental for starting an money-less economy?

   I feel that it becomes a discussion on a new “religion” instead of a project. People discuss in what they believe emotionally instead of thinking it rationally.

   Reply to Alvin

Such a variety of good points mentioned here. KT�??s is right about how to confront the O�??Reilly Factor and ditto-heads with convincing arguments, without being labeled �??loony toons,�?� although I don�??t think any of us will get the chance to have a beer with Rush, and get this message out of just �??backwater blogs?�?� Toby�??s response to Dennis about how a moneyless society will not be nirvana but the next logical step hits the nail on the head. I hate to bring up the �??brainwashing�?� concept again, but we are inundated with money considerations 24/7, and have been since birth. It�??s incredible when you think about it. Try turning on the TV, radio, or read the paper without having some economic fact, commercial, news etc. being pushed out within a couple of seconds. The brainwashing is constant and complete and obliterates our quest to be humane, compassionate, and considerate to our fellow humans, and the rest of life on this planet. It costs companies money to give into union demands, take effort to protect the environment and not pollute, but if we don�??t take steps to eliminate money from the ultimate consideration in our decisions, we are doomed. But when, and how, do we get beyond preaching to the choir here? The Venus Project, http://www.venusproject.com, thanks to Rupert for making that known to me, seems to be the biggest thing going today on getting a moneyless society even considered, and I would have never heard about it if I hadn�??t visited this site, but even the Venus Project needs money to function; they even sell DVDs. You might even call me a hypocrite too. I trained for a position to get a job, and always negotiate the most money I can get, am price conscious when I shop etc. Excuse me for rambling here as I try to reconcile with my own schizophrenic dichotomy�?�

1. Sixpm posted the following on July 17, 2009 at 12:42 am.

   Hi Bob,

   Indeed, money is in every facet of our life, except young children and the few tribe whom live out of this system, no one escapes the grasp of money. The planet have been around for billions of years, money was never been part of our evolution until the last few thousand years. I’m sure the facility of money is part of our natural progression for the time being, but as we progress both spiritually and technologically, this system will be and should be revised or replaced for the next stage of our growth.

   This type of discussion is very much needed, as we are collectively a powerful creature, our present society is created from our thought, out of thin air so to speak. Everything is temporal including this seemingly harden money mindset of ours will change from a simple suggestion of a new and fairer system for all. I’m a hopeful and I’ve been following the struggles of mankind since I was a boy, every time we faces a problem or a hurdle, a new solution will come about because of it. We are all born with this natural ability, and we do use it without ever recognise it’s existence.

   Take a look at the following on Morphogenic Fields:
   http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Morphogenic_Fields/id/4781

   Basically is about scientific studies of Koshima monkeys of Japan since 1952, when a critical mass or numbers of monkey learned a new trick, it will then automatically affects all monkeys. This is based on the understanding that every species have a specific frequency which they connects to, and because of this, anyone individual learns of something new, then others in the same frequency will learn this in time.

   Also this one for reference:

   http://www.sheldrake.org/papers/Morphic/morphic_intro.html

   This Morphic Resonance or Collective Consciousness is very similar to the studies made on human field of consciousness by Dr. David R. Hawkins, where the total of mankind’s consciousness are connected, and we can access this by the use of kinesiology (muscle test).

   I’m not going into details here, as if anyone here who is interested in progress of humanity should look beyond our physical aspects, we are all a ‘multi dimensional’ being. Everything in our universe vibrates as a frequency, our eyes can only see within the visible light spectrum from 400-700nm, before this we have ultra violet, x-ray and gamma ray, after 700nm we have infra red and longer radio waves etc. Whilst our subtler self, the spirit (if sensitive) will go way beyond what our eyes can see. Feelings of love, hate, bitterness, sadness etc. are the properties of our spiritual self and not of the physical.

   It is the recognition and understanding of this basic fundamental fact that will propel us to a new height. By talking and discussion would help us to disseminate these valuable information and thus adds fuel to our cause.

   Reply to Sixpm
   1. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on July 17, 2009 at 2:35 am.

      Hi Sixpm,

      After reading the information on the sites you have posted, and if I understand it correctly, it seems that what is postulated is that through morphic resonance, a kind of telepathy that enables rats in distant locations to learn mazes from other rats far away, and birds and fish to flock together in unison, also applies to humans, and by extension, if enough people start thinking a certain way, that will cause or influence other people through morphic resonance to think and learn the same things. What is needed is for greater numbers to send out morphic resonance waves, the greater the number, the higher the resonance, if I understand it correctly. An interesting construct, but not at the present time provable. For instance, how can it be ascertained that, for instance, if the great majority of humans decide on the elimination of money or whatever else, that that can be attributed to morphic resonance, and not by some other method? If this is true, then all we need to do is get as many people as possible to be involved in thinking about a moneyless society, then it will happen automatically. That would be nice!

      Reply to Bob Wilkinson
      1. Sixpm posted the following on July 17, 2009 at 3:06 pm.

         Hi Bob,

         Spot on, this is the butterfly effect that we beginning to become aware of. We are limited by our present understanding and mindset. Quantum physics describes this physical universe being holographic, everything is intrinsicly linked. When we are totally submerged in the pure academic world of literature, it is hard to be able to jump outside of this thick veil of subjectivity.

         Open mindedness as I see it includes examining things outside of the physical nature. Scientists have talked of different dimensions before. This I come to understand is both in the physical and metaphysical aspects. In the physical the first dimension being the basic four elements – earth, water, fire and wind. The second is the plant life, insect, animals. The third being human life. The metaphysical aspect of all these dimensions is consciousness and awareness. In each dimension are varying levels from lower to the higher degrees of consciousness. For example, the domesticated animal will be at the higher second. So too is the human at the lower third where they could commit all forms of unconscious acts of cruelty.

         In relation to all of this is our solar system which is now moving into a high energy field part of the universe, hence all of our technology and our consciousness is rising more rapidly than ever experienced. With our present technology, people who are able to have internet access are able to learn at high speed. As I see it, we are literally having our minds upgraded in a much shorter period than was possible before.

         I’ve mentioned a few scientists before (Maurice Cotterell/Gregg Braden etc.) who are very much aware that we are more than what we appear to be.

         Despite its looks, our bodies for example are extremely intelligent. Without our conscious intervention it is able to tell us what the outer temperature is like and whether it is hot or cold; whether we need more food to provide energy for the body; whether we need to go to the toilet etc. and able to control our lungs so air can be inhaled/expelled. On the outset it looks simple, but in actuality it is a lot more complex than we think when we investigate further.

         A great example is the shape of our body. A question that a lot of biologists poses is this. How did our bodies come to be formed the way they are and get the eventual shape it gets? Now a lot of people will argue it is from our genes that we get our shape, but biologists will argue we don’t get it from our DNA. The DNA is only bits of protein. There is no ‘instruction manual’ within the DNA that tells our body what the overall body shape should look like.

         To give a clearer example look at our nose and finger. We can make distinctions between our nose and fingers. We know a nose is a nose, and a finger is a finger. Yet the amazing thing is the cells that make up our nose and fingers are the SAME cells! They are the same type with no major difference. So where does the cell get its information from (to form the shape of a nose or a finger)?

         The biologist Rupert Sheldrake proposes it is from the Morphic Resonance Field that cells get their instructions and form. It is through this field of energy or consciousness that the cells of our body intelligently builds itself around. As it happens all plants and living beings are conscious with the same energy field, which is consciousness.

         A simple example of the field at work is this. Have you ever wondered why dogs are able to know when their owners come home? Or become sad when their owners are about to die? How people are able to know when someone is observing them from behind? And if you remember the animals and insects who clambered up the hills during the Indian Tsunami of 2004 to higher ground? It is this field being affected which lets the being in question know something is up.

         Dr Bruce Lipton is another biologist who has made new discoveries regarding the cells of the human body. In his video ‘The New Biology’ he explains how the cells in our bodies don’t just act as if it has no intelligence. In actual fact it is now found it both sends out and receives signals from the outside world. What Dr Lipton discovered is that our cells are affected by our thoughts and vice versa….our cells can transmit thoughts.

         The human body incidentally also shares characteristics with the Earth. When you do a catscan/MRI of the brain from the top down, there is a field of energy that surrounds both sides of the brain which is toroidal in shape. This is the same shape as the magnetic field which surrounds the Earth. What does this mean? This implies that the Earth a) is linked to the same field b) is considered a living being. It may not have arms and legs like we do, but it certainly is alive and aware.
         Even plants to a certain extent have shown emotion under lab experiments, that they showed fear when they were threatened. This further suggests that our consciousness and awareness have continually grown from dimension to dimension.

         Further to this, a Japanese scientist called Masaru Emoto has written a book called ‘The Miracle of Water’. He has discovered that water has memory, but also reacts to energy fields and negative/positive reactions. By using the simple method of playing music or talking/shouting to standing water held in bottles, freezing the water and then photographing the ice crystals using an electron microscope, he found that depending on the intent of the action, the water crystals either became beautifully symmetrical, or assymetrical/broken. ie. when positive words like ‘I love you’ were spoken to the water, the water molecules became perfect shapes. You can do further reading on this if you’re interested.

         It is also found out now that cancer patients with a positive outlook are more likely to heal and recover, while patients with negative views would either die or deteriorate in their condition. What this implies is that thought has a huge impact on the quality of life of a person.

         The fact is our bodies contains around over 70% of water. If thought can affect the shape of a water molecule then think what our thoughts would have as a direct impact on our overall health?

         Most of the miracle feats are possible because the people believe in the power of the healer. So their belief is actually the reason behind their healing.
         Hence it is important to have an open mind about things as we limit our potentials otherwise.

         Our next stage of evolution/development is towards the higher fourth dimension which is in the realms of the spirit, where the physical is less dense than our present. How well we develop this will be down to how open or how willing we are to accept the reality of our non-physical (or metaphysical) nature.

         What I want to say is, is that as a race we haven’t even grasped the absolute understanding of our basics, which is our spiritual nature along with our physical, and we realistically have only used less than 5% of our latent potential.

         I know this may seem far fetched from what we discussed here. But without the whole picture I can’t see how we can progress any further than we have now.

         Reply to Sixpm
      2. Sixpm posted the following on July 17, 2009 at 3:21 pm.

         Addendum to the above, the reason that we are all discussing the idea of a ‘moneyless society’ now maybe is the effect of this morphic resonance!!

         Reply to Sixpm

Hi all

I was thinking about making a web site/forum specifically for “moneyless society” discussions and while testing out various domain names for availability, I stumbled across this site and the Amazon link to the book. Looks like exactly what we’ve been talking about.

Thought others might be interested…

1. Toby Russell posted the following on July 17, 2009 at 7:05 am.

   Hi KT,

   the direction you are exploring there in those links is more of a “fresh” look at money and how to deploy it beneficially. I want to look more deeply into all that, but my impression at first blush is that the analyses fail to ask the question of whether money, or rather any medium of exchange, is necessary at all.

   Conventionally, economics is the study of the following process:

   production –> exchange –> consumption

   Is production –> consumption at all possible? Isn’t that what nature does? I think nature does this: production –> consumption –> “waste” –> production. That seems to me the way to go. All the answers are there in nature. Nature has already cracked sustainable “growth” and we should take our cues from it.

   Why do we need a medium of exchange? Incentive? I for one (of many) don’t buy this. Scarcity? That’s a design issue. Human nature? No way. Homo sapiens sapiens lived for tens of thousands of years — the majority of it’s time on Earth — without money. Money was “invented” to deal with scarcity. Now scarcity can be designed away, IF we can learn sufficiently from nature, and money uninvented.

   If you have money you have scarcity and exchange. If Rifkin is right and only 2% of the world’s working-age population will be employed in manufacturing by 2020, what can humans exchange (labour) to get their money? What hope for purchasing power? The service industry is being slowly decimated by AI and other technological advances. What room for these facts in the new-money/alternative money thesis? These are very important questions.

   If you have money you have scarcity, by definition. If you have scarcity you have an inbuilt pressure towards corruption — having more money is better than having less. Over time any “good” exchange tool can be altered, tweaked, and eventually fall under the power of those types of human who have it now, who excel at manipulating it.

   Peace
   Toby

   Reply to Toby Russell
   1. KT posted the following on July 17, 2009 at 6:33 pm.

      Hi Toby

      The more deeply I look into this, the more complex it becomes and sites like the one I linked to indicate that there is a lot of good thinking going on. As the saying goes “we need to learn to walk before we can run” and more intelligent means of exchange may represent our first halting steps toward something better.

      As to nature, I think we need to be careful what models or ideals we project upon it. Multicellular organisms are proof that cooperation and specialization have enormous benefits, but what is also obvious is that, with the respect to individuals, nature is completely unsentimental. If a newborn (or old, or sick) gazelle isn’t quick enough, it dies an excruciating death as a hungry lion sinks sharp claws deep into it’s body, ripping off chunks of living flesh and tearing out it’s throat. One of nature’s most important “mediums of exchange” is death. Another is parasitism. Not exactly “fluffy bunny” models for a new society.

      According to this Wikipedia “history of money” timeline, it seems in the early days, money was basically just a receipt. Where money started to go wrong was when it evolved from a system for representing things of value into a system for measuring the value of things.

      Once that happened, we started using it to measure the value of time, knowledge and with the advent of patents, ideas themselves. That’s where things really started to go haywire. Nowadays, it is accepted, without question, that if a high powered CEO and a cube rat were sitting side by side, studying the exact same spreadsheet, the thoughts running through the CEO’s head are somewhere between 50 to 350+ times as valuable as those running through the cube rats head. (as evinced by their relative pay)

      Most of mankind’s most important ideas earned the discoverer nothing. They may have sold books outlining the ideas or gotten positions, but the ideas are free for all humanity to use.

      It seems like a good first step toward reform would be to show the fallacy of the “time is money” and “ideas are money” concepts.

      Reply to KT
      1. Toby posted the following on July 18, 2009 at 3:30 am.

         Hi KT;

         As to nature, I think we need to be careful what models or ideals we project upon it.

         We are nature. There is nothing which is not nature. “Unnatural” is an illogical word. The dichotomy you describe between the ruthlessness of nature’s attitude to some individual organism versus the harmony and balance of the collective whole is valid, but not the whole story. What I really meant by learning from nature (which is a problematic expression given how I opened this paragraph) is more on the mechanical, problem-solving side of things. Efficiency and redundancy, and so on. Like a spider’s web is stronger than steel ounce for ounce, but is brewed at room temperature out of water and enzymes and sugars (apparently). Technological stuff. Check out Bernard Lietaer on this. When it comes to philosophy and paradigms and whether nature is ruthless or unfair or fair etc, that is a different domain, an intellectual exercise with a different set of pitfalls and benefits.

         That said, I am open to the idea that the road to a true resource-based economy might be paved with alternative types of money to the brutal fiat currency we enjoy today. Jacque Fresco recognizes that money will be an inescapable part of the transition. How to keep things fair and open and as incorruptible as possible is therefore a very important part of the process, walking before running as you say. So I am all for that analysis but worry too that serious technological unemployment will be upon us sooner than we think. Currently people suggest some other employment sector will open up alongside manufacturing and services, but do not know what that might be. Rifkin suggests the civic sector, but that would be funded by government. Where will government get enough taxes from to pay civic sector workers if only 40% or so are employed by the private sector?

         You mentioned in an earlier post that you would be interested in setting up a website along the lines of a discussion forum for this important arena. Me too. I imagine a portal to all strong information and analysis pertinent to this topic, where people can come to keep up to date, where research is made easier and is more focussed. If you want to collaborate on that I’d be willing to talk it over: tobyhdr@yahoo.co.uk,

         Peace
         Toby

         Reply to Toby

Please read my comment at the part 2 of this essay – the importance of spiritual side of discussion with the material world. Discussing material world bears nothing if we exclude the spiritual because they are complementary. And the only complete school of material and spiritual world is Islam. Read about Islam – the real Islam.

Happy? I don’t believe in nonsense mumbo jumbo, & of course I can only get away with being honest, that’s where most people deliberately fail to see my point of view, which is just a repetition to myself that the more The Corrupt exist, the more Our Future is, what It doesn’t seem like, in their own opinions it’s just a question to contradict us all as The Geniuses, They are, greetings, arentved@in.com, come down here, so I can challenge you, tic toc, 16 hours & counting, there’s more to this idea, than right now meets your famous eye, & I’m not under obligation that I can fail to see the good point of it.

You, too Sixpm. I don’t believe in Any Burning Hell, & I never chose Ali’s status as a good muslim, it didn’t sound honest with me, by the way, Ali, yesterday you failed to show up in front of my famous snot nose, if you can live with yourself, please repeat to your lawyer that he / she, owes me a phone call, so I can find out, what my fate mis-sion is, it didn’t sound good to you, so I don’t see any risk, what-soever that I can ’still’ fail to become & believe in & so on, you
don’t trust yourself enough, you trust a way too sought attitude, which is by MY eye & ‘just’ a waste of time, thanks for your help, any-way, genius, greetings, arentved@in.com, it’s not my 1st time that I’m not under obligation that I can feel ridiculous to you, if you have not yet found it out, I’ve tried it before, genius.

What’s below is from emails between the two Bobs:

Hi There Bob W.
Thanks for writing again, I might have forgotten as I have rather a lot going on at present. My SUV, as they call them, needs a little bit more welding before taking it back to the test place for retest. I only bought it to tow the mini digger trailer. 420 miles only since 12 months ago. It is only the silencer (muffler) that needs welding (or throwing away which I’m reluctant to do).
***
Anyway, I’ll reply to you before I resume that almost finished task (and the million other tasks required of me. I agree that there is too much squabbling on forums and not enough serious business.
***
The way in which any group of people can choose not to use money is by not buying and selling to each other. Whether it is two people or ten thousand doesn’t matter. Think of a family situation in which the members don’t pay the one who does the cooking etc. Maybe they should. In dealing with the outside world any group has to use the currency of that world, like dollars and so on.
***
So let us imagine my first circle city of ten thousand men, women and children, not one of them with a pocket full of money or bank account (unless they chose it). Everything in that circle city free to eat or use, so no need to have money in pocket. just get on with your life without any money worries. Your life would still be divided between eating, sleeping, working, recreation etc as now, but without the need for money.
***
Want clothes to wear, go to the clothes store, take them, or to the tailor, have them made. Same with everything that city makes. Want food, go to one of many refectories and choose and eat, or order something different. For the x number of hours per day when you choose to work, you cook or clean or grow veg, or fix things or make new things and so on. No need to have a bank, an account, a wallet, an accountant, pay taxes and bills, no need for most laws that are to do with money and so on.
***
All this we can do as soon as we choose in any size of group we choose. Our pooled resources will determine exactly how each group goes about this. Each person or family entering this kind of agreement will have different resources, and the financial resources in particular will determine what they can buy to make their chosen lifestyle possible. Those with my level of wealth could choose quite a grand setup, others might get help from a richer group.
***
So let us assume two or more groups were set up with this in mind. They could then choose to deal with each other on a money basis or moneyless (give and take), which saves on accounting, and also allows an interconnectedness with mutual exchange of personell, such that they are practically one group, but still autonomous also. These groups, small or large will make and mend for the outside world and gain money from the outside world for their goods and services, for which they will be paid in real money. Each group can then decide what to buy from the outside world for the members, and stock the shelves accordingly.
***
There will be no need for the regular businesses to set up stores in these groups. If a member wants something from an outside store and gets the agreement of the group then it will be bought for them, but the group would have to be satisfied that this purchase was justifiable. Otherwise the person would have to find some other way to fund the purchase. I would like to think the circle cities individually or as a network would try to make everything rather than buy it in, butt there would be no point of making anything complex that would take say a million person hours if it could be bought for the equivalent of a day’s wages.
***
What they can of course do, as they become richer by selling what they produce, is to buy up the companies that make the things they require. Small companies are cheap enough to buy and can be run just the same but provide goods and services are basic cost. Or those companies can be run with unpaid labour or part money part goods and services, in effect becoming part of the group so that the goods and services become free to the group.
***
As the new network becomes bigger it can buy up bigger companies. Ultimately the new network could buy up all the companies and all the land, all the houses and everything and then the whole world would be moneyless. But to say let us abolish money then everything else follows, I think, is a nonsense. Who are we to abolish everyone elses money and assets? And why wait for an agreement from everyone before starting down this road? Capitalism didn’t wait, it just developed, and we can just develop this new way of organising ourselves. And that is my aim. I am funding it as much as I am able, but I need others to join me.
***
It has to be done on a voluntary basis, and I am volunteering. I am choosing to make my wealth and experience available to others. Now I need those others.

Cheers,

Bob
***

PS. If you are still not convinced that it has to be this way round could you please point to any flaws in my argument. If there are any real flaws I need to know what they are so I can try to find solutions. Also, if you do want to visit, with your daughter, you are most welcome to a free stay here, now or any time in the future, we’ll find free accommodation for you.

From: Bob Wilkinson
To: robertcircle1@yahoo.co.uk
Sent: Tuesday, 28 July, 2009 7:09:08
Subject: Discussions on moneylessness

Hi Bob.
****

This is the other Bob from the Anthology blog with it’s discussion of a moneyless society. It seems that all our comments have been erased, leaving only the original comment.

http://anthologyoi.com/blogish/beyond-the-socialist-dream-a-money-less-society-part-i.html

Anyway, I live in California and would love to travel to Swansea Wales, but I can’t do so in the near future. I’m a 56 year old single father of a 12 year old girl and have to stick close to home for obvious reasons. Robin Cox and a few others on the site seemed to have something to say, but I was concerned by the squabbling between a couple of the bloggers.

You describe circular cities that will each choose to or not to use money. I’m not sure if each city can be completely independent and not need something from outside its resources, with other circular cities that would choose or not to choose to use money. I think everybody would have to have a moneyless society or it just won’t work. I’m of the persuasion that it will take either a cataclysmic event or renaissance where the light bulb goes on in most people’s minds for any type of moneyless society to occur. I know your time is limited to what you can reply to, but I wanted to touch bases with you anyway.

Send me some links as I love to look at other’s ideas.

hope all is well with you,

Bob

PS. Anyone can join in.

Your circular city concept that operates as an independent entity with little or no trade from the outside world, would take a great in money to get started. What about electricity, water, and other the infrastructure, and the desire for contact with others outside the city through the media, music, television, movies, etc. that we are so used to now? Perhaps you envision each circular city having residents who have the talent and necessary materials to provide a similar infrastructure and entertainment as we have now; I’m not sure. It seems a successful circular city would serve as an example for others to follow, and I stress the word successful. All the members would have to relocate themselves, sell all their worldly possessions to help fund the initial effort, and then the residents of the city would have to achieve a level of happiness that would cause them to want to stay. If people became unhappy, or disillusioned, then the city would fall apart. I’m not sure if this is what you envision as a way to get it started or not, but I’m just thinking about what your actual plan may be and it’s pros and cons.

Hi Guys, Sorry about the vanishing comments, I’ve restored them from a backup.

I don’t mind it, Bob, there’s more than my labor situation at stake for
me, if you want to find out, what it is, anyone of you, you’re still welcome to receive some more information of mine, apart from that m-f muslim, who didn’t sound honest with me, so that I can of course tell &
e.g. help us all find out & so on, greetings, ‘J.A.,’ WARNING: The Corrupt still approve of no honesty, so I still don’t know, don’t think, if I can treat myself like anyone’s chosen labor compromise, let alone my own, an ex.: A friend of mine trusted me without trusting himself, so far he thus made a terrible & unwanted mistake, which one day became his grave.

1. Ali Chin posted the following on August 5, 2009 at 9:37 pm.

   Joram, ur unbelief in d burning hell proves how ignorant u r of urself. I’m very sorry 4 ur wretchedness. Know u that “knowing God results to any other kind of understanding.” Try to know God so that u may know understand urself, and about money/less society – how to achieve it. U r way too far from d Right Path. Happy reflections.

   Reply to Ali Chin

Of course I can rephrase some of it, I’m just as much as yourselves in-tr. in finding out, what my future is, if I weren’t intr. in it, I was never certain that I could join in on it, – for instance, what do you achieve by being against your own & true nature, by being false, nega-tive about anything? Greetings, ‘J.A.’ I still don’t claim that I don’t trust you, what I’m waiting for, by ob- ligation, is to make up my mind about, who wants & deserves what, why & when, requirements, 1st of all honesty.

1. Joram Arentved posted the following on September 10, 2009 at 9:11 pm.

   P.S.: Ali, fuxx me, too, greetings, ‘J.A.’

   Reply to Joram Arentved

I no longer give a fuck to be honest, so I still don’t know, don’t think, if I can fail to become & believe in & as much as possible about, what my fate mission is, sorry to be fucking selfish about it, if you want to join me, your lawyer’s welcome to receive my phone, Chile, 00562 558 97 91, so that I can of course tell & e.g. help us all find out & so on, which already & of course goes without saying, thanks for your help, anyway, greetings, ‘J.A.,’ you weren’t the 1st 1, who didn’t understand me, so I don’t give a fuck that I can ’still’ treat myself like anyone’s ‘chosen’ compromise, the way that God likes me, motivation for it: A lawyer, His ownn, who didn’t exist, with & in front of me & my fucking snout, (snot nose, to put it like that).

Robin,

Thought you maybe interested in these couple of links, first is a video by Lydon LaRouche, he talked about a new world economic system not dissimilar to the ‘resource based society’book in PDF format, the second link provides the download, this book is full of practical ideas towards our imminent change.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef1Fsf7ovZA

http://resourcebasedliving.blogspot.com/2009/04/world-without-money-free-ebook.html

Best,
Danny aka Sixpm

1. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on September 18, 2009 at 4:29 pm.

   Here are a couple of links that may be of interest to all. One explains the Zeitgeist Movement, the activist arm of the Venus Project:

   http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/The%20Zeitgeist%20Movement.pdf

   There are similarities to the world-without-money-free-ebook, but I think the explainations are more detailed.

   And this is an almost 2 hour video, Zeitgeist Addendum, on you tube narrated by Peter Joseph, and contains an interview of Jacques Fresco, the founder of the Venus Project. Many of the you tube comments aren’t in support of the movie, which indicate that it will take a long time for a money-less society to become a reality. But you have to start somewhere.

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gKX9TWRyfs

   Peter Joseph has distanced himself from the 9/11 conspiracy, that was the subject of the Zeitgeist 1.

   Reply to Bob Wilkinson

Another explanation of mine is that my Danish mother can’t understand my status as a self-determined man, so I still don’t allow myself or anyone else that I can be forced to treat myself like anyone’s compromise, let alone my own, greetings, ‘J.A.’

Now that we have all admitted that we are not perfect, can we please get on with the job at hand, running the planet as though it matters?

In all humbleness,

Bob
***

1. Sixpm posted the following on September 19, 2009 at 11:02 pm.

   Bob,

   I am working my part in the building a better planet. Like I originally stated, what I’ve posted is a small contribution. One of the main reason why the planet is in the mess it is in now is because people’s denial of their spiritual nature. This basic fundamental knowledge has been deliberately taken out buy the controlling elites in our knowledge or education system, their intention is make sure we don’t know who we are and what we are capable off. Our ‘establishments’ are laying down laws, rules and regulations to make sure that we think and behave like a slave, the monetary system was a perfect system of slavery, hence we are talking about this moneyless society issue.

   I believe if we don’t have a basic understanding that we are essentially a soul/spirit living a physical existence, that our purpose is all about spiritual growth. All physical aspects are just tools to aid this growth. You may think for this moment what has this to do with the discussion of what this forum is all about? But unless we come to terms of our true identity, we will always see ‘others’ are something different to us, this separation is the initial cause of conflict in our world. We are all intrinsically linked, the good, the bad or the ugly are all part of us, the ignorance displayed by all humanity are all part of our total collective consciousness, something that we cannot denied.

   Dr. David R. Hawkins’s study on the field of human consciousness is a proof of this, biologist Rupert Sheldrake’s study of Morphic Resonance is also a confirmation that we all affects one another.

   What you and other with similar mindsets have started a mental revolution, this is already taken effect, we as a species do operate on the same frequency of thought. What you, me and others who thinks the same way will eventually affects all humanity, as once the point of critical mass is reached, then mass awareness is certain when this balance is tipped.

   I am not having an argument with you here, if that is what you feel, I would like apologize for I have no intention whatsoever, as I only mean well. All I’m doing here is just lay down my thoughts and hope is of use as that is how we all grow, by learning from each other.

   If we are not able to open our hearts to love, to forgive and to accept one another, and that we are all just one big family, how could we have ever lasting peace? We must let go of all our differences and to embrace, to encompass and to love all humanity unconditionally, then our future is certain.

   Love and peace.
   Danny

   Reply to Sixpm

1st of all I’ll encourage you all that you can’t trust God’s Existence.
Whatever This Pig can control any- or nothing for you, what, It does, is simply & to myself a repetition that the more, my poor mother exists as a free woman, to do to me, whatever she likes, the more conflicts WILL & CAN exist with & as a part of me, i.e. against my pers. & most ‘chosen’ will, motivation: For instance a lawyer, who didn’t exist with & in front of me & my ‘famous’ snout, respectively, so that I can of course tell & help us all find out &, whoever’s who, our best answers to, what’s our just as good future, especially, what it depends on, since what, The ‘Famous’ & Corrupt believe in, is only a contradiction to, whoever’s who, though bit by bit, that’s a false attitude, they approve of, for no further reason at all, greetings, ‘J.A.’

my name is anthony poole i have just sent a proposal to my senator in alabama. in my letter of proposal i laid a lot of ideas out there for them to try . if you do an indepth study and you see what 90 % of all crimes commited are and why you will see that most all of these cases resort to some sort of money issue. so here is what i proposed i addressed the wont work chaos business thats not true . just because we have a moneyless system doesnt mean we wont have law. of ocurse most laws will change therefore releasing 50% of the jailed population that 50% im speaking of is over what … child support ? yup its true greedy or vegeful exs help create this problem i know i been there. if you remove money it fixes a lot of stuff but not all your still going to have a stupid drunk somewhere get messed up and kill someone im sure from time to time . here was another part i mentioned you can develop a rotating system that takes people from other trades or educational areas that would no longer exist retrain them into another field require min hours per week promote family life by cuttint time at work down from the current situation you really would not have to work harder if everyone pulls thier weight just as now wellwhat are you loosing by removing money? infact you would gain time away from work keeps you from burn out anyway and strees thats kinda the point to a moneyless system . yes even the homeless should be expected to participate for the new house they just recieved even if its cutting the grass for the county. or put them to work into recycling. promote people growing thier own foods to help the farmers out some as well. all you would have to would be show up at your job less for the same or better gains and you will feel better without the stress.come up with a system that uses your social security number as when you go to work (heres the equality thing addressed)new hybrid or electric car every 5 years recycle clothes, paper,metals , produce alternative fuels hey now theres a hot new job thats kinda interesting to know . but in this plan you would have a lot more freedom to go with this new system and that my friend is what we should be about. i mean the only people who would argue with this over stature are greedy control freaks that think they have that right well you dont get in step or step out of line . thesee people are generaly insecure people that dont feel comfortable with the idea we are all created equall in the eyes of god . they think their better because of thier education or, whatever it is that makes them think they deserve more stature than others my friend i have lots i could say to you guys but i wont . the way i see it if the doctor knows how to fix bodies and i know how to fix that doctors ac we all will win no matter if you pump gas for a living. as long as you work what does it really matter what you do or are educated to do.we are all headed the same way if you wanna ride get on if not peace walk then. in short this is what i came up with 1 abolish money effective instantly publicly announce this took place announce everything is now free just show up to work as normal until the bugs are worked out 2 stop all forclosures and evictions by law effective instantly .3 house homeless first 4set up comunications with employment offices for rotations to begin 5 require all able bodies to perform thier duties unto this nation 6 rework the laws so they actually work instead of a financial gain which creates corrupt officials normal laws apply 7 fines will go away taxes gone crime drastically lowered you just solved 90% percent of all problems by making things free to all and promoted brotherhood among men . and all these bs laws that are on the books for gain are gone only thing stopping that is people who want to feel powerful got news for you my friend the day you become powerful enough to take me on man to man is the day you will earn my respect until then you have no business in control of anything because you obviously have a mental problem. thats my opinion on that people just dont like to be controled like that in general its not how we are meant to be.we are meant to be equals in this world your skin made from the same stuff mine is . and unless you have the almighty say so your just another man or woman whichever the case maybe.im sure one could find argument that we as a society are not ready for a moneyless system but i ask you is it better to starve in a poor economy or thrive in a moneyless system whats happening right now thats a very real fact of life to face. there is no room for jealousy and envy in this system no need for it as why would anyone want to see that out of another human anyways unless your messed up in the head? we were not put here to act this way .im sure if we all put our heads together we could come up with a rational solution to any snag this could throw i mean if you cant work 30 hours a week doing something then you are disabled anyway outside of that you would be lazy and should not expect someone to pull your weight there would be something for everyone to do and it would not require much effort i mean come on who could not do 30 hours at thier current job in exchange for utilities , car , home , clothes , net, festivals, vacation time, more time with family, lower crime rate, walking down the roughest possible neighborhood without fear of getting shot and robbed , better kids in the long run because mom and dad around more ,this rat race lifestyle we live now is nothing but and has always been trouble from the start.there will still be teachers but oh heres how we handle the education of that doctor over the education over highschool drop out… you train them you share your knowledge you help people become more than they are with it so they might one day step in and help in the very same field i mean after all everything is free so should education some of these folks didnt have a chance they were born into finacial problems and couldnt go to school or got preg early should they be condemed for that? i dont think so i think they should have the same chance to progress no matter if its later on in life but as we know when you are already paycheck to paycheck there is not much chance of that with money around. this young lady made a mistake ok she should not be thrown to the wolves like that. but you get my point thanks for the ear and i would like to see an org started to educate people in this area to ill be ready to sign up in a flash. ps sorry for all typos guess you know what job i wouldnt be good at lol

Hi Everyone,

I’m delighted to find others with similar views.

In June this year I had a similar experience to Rupert Russel (ref. his Feb 25,2009 posting). I fear humanity and the planet are heading towards disaster. My youngest grandchild is 4 years old and while reflecting on the life she’ll have to endure it hit me that
” Money is the problem …… we must get rid of it! “.
I don’t know where it came from. There was no reasoning or thinking involved but along with it came a profound realization and knowing that getting rid of money would solve most problems. This experience was so powerful that I felt compelled to get this insight out onto the web. I Googled many words and phrases in the search of a suitable website or blog that I could ccontribute to but came up with nothing. I therefore created a simple website. My first attempt is http://www.itsjustcommonsense.co.uk , which I hope you’ll visit. I payed $36 to a company to promote my site as well as making submissions myself. My website just sat there with no visitors. During the last couple of weeks I’ve used Twitter once and sometimes twice a day to promote the site and have received nearly 400 visits.

I couldn’t beleive I was the only one to see the benefit of getting rid of money. I started searching again and wasn’t successful until I Googled the precise phrase ” moneyless society ” which brought me here.

Those who control the money control and rule the world. These rich elite also own the world’s resources and media. Our political leaders are their puppets. Money is the devisive tool they use to enslave,control,manipulate etc. They look like us but they definately don’t think and behave like us.
We are conditioned from birth. As a result of Political Correctness, Health & Safety, media propoganda, the education system together with chemicals in food, air, water etc we are rapidly turning into dumbed down unthinking robots. Urgent action is needed to get rid of money and end the power, manipulation, corruption of the rich elite.

Once made aware, it’s possible that the majority would agree with us. If we don’t try we wont know! We need a clear convincing argument. Getting the message out globally may be very difficult. It may come down to distributing leaflets.

I apologise for my rant and hope my comments are of some use.

1. Robert Howes posted the following on October 3, 2009 at 9:41 pm.

   Hi Brian,

   Just a short reply as it is 3:37 AM. I agree we need a moneyless economy and I have ideas how to promote it. Are you interested? See my posts above.

   Cheers,

   Bob
   ***

   PS, where are you?

   Reply to Robert Howes
2. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on October 3, 2009 at 10:28 pm.

   Brian,

   Everyone here agrees that a money-less society would serve the best interests of humanity. It’s just that we have been conditioned into a capitalist system. Perhaps if we could get people with money who believe in this effort, like Michael Moore the film maker – latest movie Capitalism: A Love Story, we could help get people involved with the Venus Project and Bob Howes’ project in Swansea Wales, and hopefully get the momentum necessary to gather more interest. It may seem hypocritical, but we need money to fight money, at least at this stage of the game. See my posts above for other links.

   Bob Wilkinson

   Reply to Bob Wilkinson

If you ask ME, Brian, it’s not MY opinion that I can force you to apologise for anything, by my pers. principles it’s an extremely good idea for us all to start thinking about how & when to live as A Moneyless Soc., & of course I can only accept it, as it is.
Greetings, ‘J.A.’

The real complication is to myself that The Narrowminded can’t understand, who is who, say, ourselves, therefore It’s Themselves, Who make an unwanted mistake, which, however, & only indicates that The One must afterwards tell you, myself etc., ’sorry, I screwed up, a thing, one, I didn’t really think about, though it was not my intention,’ so that I can of course figure out, what’s the solution to what problem: I don’t claim that I don’t believe in Our Moneyless & Excellent System as Such, what I seek, is contrarily to make sure that my future will exist as my personal decision, one that The Narrowminded don’t approve of, that’s all, there is to it.
Greetings, ‘J.A.’

Sorry, I meant still, greetings, ‘J.A.’

I love the idea of a moneyless society. I particularly like the idea of a ‘Time-Bank’ system, where I can ‘deposit’ 8 hours work on somebody’s garden and ‘withdraw’ 8 hours of somebody’s work decorating.
People think that one person’s ‘hour’ is worth more than another person’s ‘hour’, and this is where we, as a society, need to mature our thinking. One man’s hour is worth another man’s hour – period. He may argue that he’s invested the time in studying, or skill-learning; in my mind that entitles him to deposit his hours doing something he loves (if you don’t love it why did you choose that profession?).
Remember, nobody is better than anyone else – or ‘not-as-good’ as anyone else; all that is stuff we learned from our parents, friends, teachers.
If a person slow hours, that’s fine, why should we all live life at the same pace? It just makes your life spin by faster.
I like Joram Arentved’s vision of life, and would like to hear more.

Simplyfying it too much can unfortunately make it too easy for somebody to try & corrupt you, so of course I can only tell you that I feel anyone trying to think too much about it, greetings, ‘J.A.’

Someone said ’sorry’ to me, that’s a word, I don’t give any fuck that I can count on. What we need, is still A Totally Moneyless Future to be, if you can’t ‘get it,’ for all, I care, you can still take a fucking hike, so I can find out about it, greetings, I’m tired of this bad word, one that I, however, don’t see any risk, whatsoever that I can fail to use, if other want to fail to see my point of view, I didn’t fuck with you, Ali, till you fucked with myself.