One of the goals of socialists is an economy in which all participants are equal and goods are available to all regardless of family, wealth or occupation. The ultimate goal of such an economy is an entirely money less society in which goods are free for all. Unfortunately a a system such as this is not possible when goods and resources are finite and where some occupations are harder to train for and others are physically harder.
Another problem with this system is that a money-less economy does not encourage hard work. As was demonstrated on the communal farms of Russia, when each worker has little reward for working harder than a minimal amount there is little reason to work harder. If harder work doesn’t mean more reward what is the point? In a completely equal society there is little point outside of personal pride, but even that is taken away with the right (or wrong as the case may be) conditioning. In a group society it does not serve to stick out among ones compatriots. However it is possible to encourage those who wish to succeed while still keeping people economically equal if a merit based system was introduced. A merit system would reward those that put more effort into benefiting society and as such allow them access to greater wealth and have the opportunity to acquire more exclusive goods.
In such a system a person would not be competing against all other people and occupations as they do in a money economy, but instead compete against those that have similar educations and occupations. Lets take for example two theoretical people. The first is a maid who never finished high school; the second person is a doctor who is among the preeminent surgeons of the day. Quite obviously in a money economy the maid would make far less money than the doctor, even to the point where the maid may make in a lifetime what the doctor makes in a year. Although one may argue that the doctor, because of his position and education, is worth more money than the maid, but should the doctor’s children automatically have a better chance at life than the maids? In a perfect society it sounds nice that the maid’s children have the same opportunity, but in reality the doctor’s children would have access to better schools and better teachers.
Ensuring all people start equally in life should be the main goal of the system, but as a person ages the amount of effort they are willing to put in should determine where they end up. Using this system each person must be the best they can be, or are left behind to fulfill the more menial requirements of society. Those that surpass expectations will prosper while others will only look on with envy and have none to blame but themselves. Rather than money, family or connections a person’s own nature will define their life.
We know that the money is free for the Fed. It is a private bank and only it can print money without any restrictions, at anytime and by any amount. Since the money is free for the Fed, it should be free for everybody. We should not have to pay it back; there should not therefore be any debt or deficit. Thus the Fed has artificially created the taxation, periodic payment, interest rate etc. At the core of capitalism then we really have a free or moneyless economy now.
Let us examine the status of money today. We are all dealing with electronic money these days. Our employment checks are deposited electronically by our employers in our banks. We buy things using our credit cards. We pay the bills using our computers. Very soon we will authorize our credit card companies to directly deduct their money from our accounts automatically. Thus the money is just a number in some database on some computers. That number goes up and down and controls our life styles. Now we ask do we need that number to control us.
Instead of trusting that number on a computer why not we all trust ourselves and work for free? We go to our work places and work just like we are doing it now. The only difference is that we do not get paid. The computer number changes to 40 hours. Government tracks this number. We all become slaves for the society, for the people, for the government, and finally for the god for 40 hours per week every week. In return we get everything free. We go to a store and buy everything we want for free. If we want to live in a big house, we hire a contractor; he builds it for us and for free. If we want to travel; we book the flight, and travel free, stay in a hotel free. Everything will be free because everybody is working free. People will still be forced to work otherwise there will be no food or shelter.
Buddha and Gandhi have established a method of austerity and the self control of mind, body, and soul to reduce the need for money. This is a solution at the individual level. Milton Friedman has proposed the elimination of the central bank. President Jefferson proposed printing money by the government. Both Friedman and Jefferson essentially said the same thing; and their approach gives a global solution to our poverty. But our approach of moneyless economy is more profound and provides cleaner solution to all our problems.
This moneyless economy will eliminate environmental pollution and the wars. It will eventually kill the pollution of our souls by removing greed, corruption, violence, cheating, and lying. This will eliminate poverty from the world permanently. The moneyless economy will allow us to create products that we really need and nothing, like cigarettes, can be imposed on us by the investors. In fact the whole financial system including the central banks will not be required any more. We will have more people working for real benefits of the society.
For comments please write to subhendu.das@excite.com
Why would we need to work for 40 hours a week in a moneyfree world. It would be by definition a non commodity market, we would not have to produce so much consumer rubbish. We could implement all sorts of labour saving devices because people no longer fear unemployment. all people will have access to production . we would probally need to work on average 16 hours a week. check out the Zeitgeist , you might find them a bit inspiring.
As for credit cards and governments what the hell will we need them for? This will be a free world !
Nick,
I can agree with you on this, I think Subendu is getting himself in a twist. We need to get back to basics. The world is in a mess and most people don’t give a damn. Those of us that do are a tiny number and just as much driven by selfish motives. Nothing wrong with selfish motives as long as each of us accepts everyone else’s needs are as great as their own. Therefore we each have to do what we can to help everyone so that we are helping ourselves at the same time. Socialism in the head first, on the ground later. We need to build the movement by whatever means in order to get the socialism into the heads of everyone whether it takes 100 years or not. Good luck with the strike.
Cheers,
Bob
***
buy from the small entrepenure and self employed and pay cash, they won t pay tax on that that willdeplete corporate government and corporate america s bite on humanity, in time it will colaspe leaving a vacuum in which some form of change can take place
Nick9tap,
I think I agree with you. But here are my comments on your questions.
Suppose somehow we implement the moneyless economy tomorrow at midnight. What will happen then on the following morning? If we do not go to work and do our things, the world will collapse. We will need a transition period in which things will slowly change to a steady normal and eventually to an evolutionary state.
During this transition we still have to work for 40 hours. How do we ensure that we are all working for 40 hours? Government or our corporations will have to track our activities. During this transition period our mindset will not immediately change to the final mindset of moneyless being. So we will misbehave, become corrupt, destroy everything. To maintain an orderly state we have to still work for 40 hours for quite a long time, until the transition period ends, may be for more than 10 years.
How do we track these 40 hours? We track our salary on computers now, you know that probably. I have discussed that idea somewhere else in this page site. This 40 hour will replace that salary number on the computer.
When we go and buy things we use our credit cards now. During this transition period we will have this 40 hours number on this credit card to prove that we have worked. We cannot get things from the society for free without working for free to produce these things.
As the society evolves, these hours, cards, numbers will change. We will completely trust ourselves, just the way we trust our money now. At that state of mind we do not have to track ourselves. There will be no need for government. I cannot think if that state of mind can happen for all seven billion people in the world. I am sure even at steady state period, we will invent corruptions and take unfair advantages. So we may, in practice, need some monitoring and control mechanism to run the society properly.
As far as the ZeitGeist, please select a YouTube site for me that you think I should watch to understand your thought process. I tried, there are many sites, and everything is very long. But I will definitely watch your selections, and provide my comments after I study them.
I hope I was able to clarify the problems you have raised here.
Subhendu,
What we have to decide is when to have a transition. I think we must have a transition now, within capitalism, but change to co-ops instead of bosses. After all the workers in the world are working in co-operation with each other and only making good things not war things we will all then understand how a co-operative world works in practice. Until then you are right about many not understanding it and wrecking it.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Welcome to this debate Subhendu,
I am convinced. All we need do now is convince all the sceptics to go along with us. It might take some time. Also it might take quite a lot of lateral thinking. Do you have any ideas for how to go about it? Mine are up and down this page and the next.
Cheers,
Bob
***
We need a plan of actions. Bob is right we have to do both (1) convince the skeptics (2) Lateral thinking.
Convince the skeptics:
Collect all the negative ideas presented here and in all other places. Give proper, thoughtful, and convincing logic to counter all negative ideas clearly. Create a kind of FAQ site.
Lateral thinking:
Create a plan to implement this moneyless economy. Questions are – Where, when, and how?
finally, someone who talks some sense….But bobs right. How can a thread like this overthrow the elites?
Tommy asked a good question is this thread enough?
My idea will be to create a website with the mission to
Implement moneyless economy within a target date.
But also keep this thread and remain active here.
Hi Subhendu and everyone,
I think the way this will all pan out is that a group or groups will use money in more inventive ways over the next one hundred years to create the conditions (physical and psychological) the world over that are conducive to the change we here clearly already see as necessary. There are already groups advocating the change to a moneyless and stateless economy and I interact with most of them. Google money free or moneyless and see how many you can find and join their forums and engage with them until you can understand better the solution and what is holding up its implementation.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Don’t under estimate our thought and consciousness, as it is the very engine for creation, we did create our present civilization did we not?
Everything in our modern society do come from “thin air’, the causation is the power of our “thought’, so the thread we are on is exactly the cause for more mental actions, we are all part of the grass root for the next big movement, and this is to release humanity from the ego-ic selfishness, self centeredness and self serving nature, so that we all work toward a new civilization for the betterment of all of humanity.
The reason for my believe and the up beat is information is leaking from people who works for these controlling organizations that the differences within these dark cabalist group are splitting and fracturing because of the difference in their opinion. Some no longer wants to commit the crime towards humanity.
We are linked in more way than most aware, as we all work within a specific frequency and the more people’s awareness is growing the balance will begin to tip, witness by the uprising from all over the world. For those who don’t believe in metaphysics, we only need the square root of half of one percent of the worlds population to become aware and awake, then there is enough momentum to make massive changes for the rest of humanity. This is the calculation by both military scientist and the biologist Rupert Sheldrake, the dark cabals do know their time is up, as their “fear’ mongering no longer have any effect for masses of people on this planet.
I believe the change is imminent, as there are people from all over the world and who are already part of the institutions are already planning and working to make serious changes, we will be able to witness this within our lifetime.
Danny Chau has a philosophical view on the subject. I like and agree with his concepts. So I will expand along his lines. Einstein said – to solve a problem you must come outside the environment of the problem. I say in the same way, the creator is always outside the creation. If you consider the creation as the money based economic system and suffering of the increasingly larger number of people in the lower economic class, then the creator will be the central bank or the Fed. To fix the problem you must seek help outside the creation. Creation cannot change itself, time can change it, but fundamentals cannot change. I have given some examples in some other place in this page.
We cannot create a moneyless economy. We cannot destroy the central bank. It will require a bigger power, bigger than the central bank. However we must change the environment so that the bigger power evolves and brings the change.
It will come the way Danny has proposed, by internal splitting of the existing power structure. But it cannot happen in this generation. This split power must take rebirth and become bigger. We may have to wait several generations until it becomes sufficiently bigger to destroy the present creator, the central bank.
Life is precisely predefined. The birth of Hitler (and consequently freedom of India) was predicted by Nostradamus 500 years before, and also by Bible’s book of revelation (creation of Israel a reaction of Hitler) some 2000 years back. So moneyless economy (a law of nature) will also happen, but as Robert Howes mentioned, after 100 more years.
I have not presented a pessimistic view, I am all with you. In fact, I want we take some serious actions. Is anybody out there to run with me?
There is a plan to help the transistion into a moneyfree world. a symbolic 1 day strike starting when the olympics start. world wide strike 2012 you can google it get all info. surprise bob didnt mention.
Get involved , get the people thinking about it!
There is no need to mention about this strike explicitly. It is already there in this page.
I think we should all participate in it. It will give a global exposure to the idea of money less economy and its feasibility.
It is not necessary to strike for the whole day. One hour strike should serve our objective. Make sure that in your company you explain properly about this new economic system.
To compensate for the lost hour you can work for one extra hour.
The vast majority do not believe that the world can supply seven billion or more people with all that they require for the good life, so they “naturally” try to grab as much as they can in their lifetime, and leave the rest to suffer. For global co-operation to occur the majority has to have a change of mind on this so that there is enough new thinking people for the one percent to arise out of.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Bob is right and here is why. People cannot bring real changes. We can only create the environment. Real change must come from the power. It is true though that without the environment the real change will not happen.
Here are some examples. Gandhi did not bring freedom to India. He only created the environment. The real change came only when Hitler destroyed England. England then had to surrender all its African and Asian colonies. Thus the real change came from power, the Hitler. Help from a stronger power is always necessary to bring the change.
Same thing happened in South Africa; the world stopped economic cooperation with South Africa, the white government then had to surrender. The history for the black people in USA is no different. The US government, the larger power, had to fight a civil war.
The revolution in the Arab world similarly cannot bring real changes. The real economic change can happen only when we create the moneyless economy. Through this website all we can do is to create the environment and then wait for the bigger power to intervene and bring the change.
I do not think people ever brought real changes in the history of the world. Money power was always the strongest power. There may not be any bigger power that will eliminate money power. All the religious text books of the world predicted god will come and help. Maybe god is bigger than money power.
Hi Subhendu Das,
Maybe a higher power than money is on its way to help.
“Dimensional Shift: The Guidance of Jesus Christ on the Threshold of Gobal Transformation” is an e-book of about 16,000 words which describes the divine intervention about to take place very soon that is considered necessary for evolution to continue.
This 37 page PDF book has been downloaded and can be accessed via a link near the bottom of the webpage “www.ageofcooperation.com”.
The last chapter “Life on the new Earth” page 32 is of particular interest as it describes changes (including money) that we would consider desirable.
This book has given me considerable food for thought and can’t stop wondering if this New Earth could result from spontaneous evolution?
I hope you find this e-book interesting!
Regard,
Brian
Brian,
Thank you for recommending the book Dimensional shift. I think the book is written by two authors. The last chapter is written by one person, and all the previous chapters are written by another person.
I make that assumption based on the work done on thinking by the two authors. The last chapter is on money less economy. As I have mentioned in another post for you it has bugs and contradictions. It needs more work. The author was not rigorous.
The previous chapters require a profound mindset. They show that the author has been working on the ideas for long time. That is why the author calls it a dimensional shift. Surprisingly, the book is written in first person, with Jesus Christ as the name. But the book extensively uses philosophies from India. It uses the words mandala, incarnation, destiny, karma, living for 400 years, hermitage, meditation etc. Although the fundamental concept is on the Bible’s book of revelation, but it hardly talks about Bible.
These first few chapters, as you said correctly, show how the transition to money less economy will happen. This book says in the process lot of people will die. I agree.
I believe in god like the way the book does, and I also believe dramatically different things can happen too. I use god everywhere. But I am totally confused about god. Surprisingly I have yet to see any definition of god by anyone, including this book. But I believe any idea that denies or contradicts god is wrong; you will always be able to find flaws in that idea if you do a detailed research.
Regards,
Subhendu
Brian,
Thank you for recommending the book – Dimensional shift. Yes, the book is relevant to our site because it has described an implementation scheme for the moneyless economy. However, I am sure you have noticed that it has failed to describe a consistent and meaningful design of the moneyless society. I point out below some of its internal contradictions.
(1) “Your homes, your vehicles, the items of everyday use, the clothes, and the food will be given to you at no charge. You won’t have to work for it; you will just receive this luxury in exchange for the personal development that you have accepted” (Page 33).
So you get your things for free. That is very good and I agree with it. I want the same design and I proposed that also elsewhere in this site.
(2) In another paragraph in the same page the author says “Only because you will be good at so many professions, and because you like the meaningful work available, you will be granted the opportunity of producing what you need by your own hands”(Page 33).
Item (1) says you will be given things free. The author does not say who will produce them. So there is no solution for production. Item (2) says you will have the opportunity to work. This is an opportunity and is not mandatory. That means you do not need to work but you still get things for free because of item (1). That cannot be acceptable. The seed of corruption is built into the system.
I have proposed, instead, that you have to work for 40 hours to produce everything we need. And you have to work free. You get things free only if you work for free. That is what it should be. The number 40 will eventually change (increase or decrease) depending on how the system evolves over time. Chris, I think you objected to free work am I correct?
(3) The book continues “If you want to buy something for instance, if you want to go to the cinema or a theater you will use a palm-scanning device that will read information and show the actual state of credits. This means everyone will get bonus points for work done and for learning achieved” (Page 35).
This credit system is like money and will eventually lead to corruption. This is a failure by design method. This shows that the author could not rid himself of the concepts and philosophy of the present money based capitalism. I think Nick will not like this idea.
I do not know if you have already bought this design or not did you Brian? Please everybody let me know your views. The book provides a method for the Big Bang phase that I have described elsewhere in this page. I will write about it later. This entry is already too big for us.
Subhendu,
I have to take issue with you over Hitler, he and his Nazi armies and air force and navy did not destroy England. Whatever gave you that idea? They did some damage and the Nazis were beaten. You will gain few friends by being a friend to Hitler. He is seen by most people as one of the greatest criminals ever. And anything can be read into Nostrodamus. Please try to be more scientific. There is no scientific evidence for the soul no matter how many books says there is. Don’t believe what you read. I’m not saying to disbelieve it either. Just accept the unknown as unknown. We cannot know everything. What we know is that the world is in a mess. We also know that there are solutions. But to work together we have to agree on certain things and I cannot agree that Hitler was the greatest change maker.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Bob,
US presidential candidate Patrick J. Buchanan wrote (2008) a book where he basically said that because of the World War II the west lost the colonies. He said, [p. 295] “As it was, Britain was dragged into an unnecessary war, which cost her nearly 400,000 dead, bankruptcy and the dissolution of the British empire.”
Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War: How Britain Lost Its Empire and the West Lost the World by Patrick J. Buchanan (New York: Crown Publishers, 2008); 518 pages.
Bob,
Nostradamus said the following about Hitler:
“Beasts ferocious from hunger will swim across rivers. The greater part of the region will be against Hister. The great one will cause it to be dragged in an iron cage, when the German child will observe nothing.” – Page 23, Prophesy Number 24.
The above quote is taken from the book: – Preface by M. Nostradamus to His Prophecies, Accurate translation, He wrote it as a letter to his son, 163 pages.
Hister name is very close, mentioned the words German, rivers, child will observe nothing.
Considering such a precise prediction for 500 years in future, shows there is something in nature about the destiny of life, that is beyond our conventional science.
I’m not convinced Nostradamus said anything about Hitler, and so what if he had?
***
You might be ready to believe all kinds of stuff but I am not. We have a job to do and crazy beliefs do not help in any way.
***
Belief in Gods arose when there was little or no science to inform the people about the universe. Religions and other hocus pocus are just stories.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Bob,
Reincarnation is a law of nature. It has nothing to do with any religion.
Reincarnation has been proven to the scientific community by an American, Professor Dr. Ian Stevenson (1918-2007). Stevenson, an MD, was the head of the department of psychiatry at the University of Virginia in USA. He has done his research on the subject for almost 40 years.
In the following 8 minutes long YouTube video of 2008, Philosophy Professor Dr. Robert Almeder of Georgia State University, talks about the research of Dr. Stevenson. He says it is irrational to disbelieve it, describes the consequence of it, and says why you should investigate the subject.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZhMDU9GcVg
The next YouTube video, 11 minutes long and posted on Feb 2011, is from Dr. Jim Tucker, Professor at University of Virginia. The video talks about an American small child, a boy, with memory of previous life. The video describes some other astonishing examples of reincarnation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZTtU7akrfQ
Reincarnation can be classified in few different types or categories. The most scientifically convincing type is – when major birth defects or birth marks of the person in previous life appears in the present child’s body and the child starts talking about it, around the age of two, providing all the details of previous life. One such example is a boy, with a mark on chest corresponding to entry of bullet, and the bullet exit mark at the back of the body. The research, investigation, and the postmortem record verify the case. Clearly, it is not possible to give any scientific logic against such type of physical cases.
The reincarnation subject is not directly related to money-less economy. But any analysis of topics from social science must consider it to capture global views of the problem.
For more details and discussions please email me at subhendu.das@excite.com
God would indeed be a bigger power, that doesn t excuse mankinds delerection of duty in correcting injustice and correcting that which is wrong regardless of the direction in which we go
Bob,
You have raised a good problem of scarce resources. Tmsbrdrs has given a good answer to your issue. Here are some more thoughts.
The definition of resources will change when money will go away and everything will become free. As an example, which I mentioned before, if I want to live in a large house, I will hire a contractor and he will build it for me free. Now the value and image of living in a big house will completely change, since everybody now can live in a big house.
The same thing can happen for any resource. In fact all the resources we are using now have been imposed on us by capitalism. Some entrepreneur got an idea, then some investor joined him and produced the product and we all started using it. A resource like this may not be needed in future. We will use the things that we really need. Everybody may not want to get the same resource in the moneyless economy, because it is free.
I think in a moneyless economy our mindset will completely change for everything we do now and use it now. Today even our math science got corrupted by money; they will also change when we go for moneyless economy. Our education also will change. Only those who are genuinely interested will go for education. Thus the subject, content, duration, and teaching methods all will change.
Probably we cannot comprehend how profound the changes will be under the present mindset.
serious studies have been conducted in the past and the sustainable population number would be 2.2 billion, with the use of oil it may be lesss, if agrigulture were to decreass the use of machinery where practical that may assists,but those that indicate that 7 billion is not sustainable are correct. as oil becomes more depleted and unable to be retrieved as quickly as the demand we would be doomed. wars really are the wealthy people thinning out the herd to diminish the demand for foods and goods
Hello all: It’s been a while since I’ve chimed in. I think this is not the forum for Hitler or Religion, because those topics seem to distract instead of focus on the issues of establishing an environmentally sustainable lifestyle, where the earth’s resources are not wasted or concentrated in the hands of a few select groups of people. How do we change the system? That is the question. We must all become more informed. A good place to start is by reading Web of Debt by Ellen Brown. For more information see this link:
http://www.webofdebt.com/.
——————
Learn about fractional reserve banking from this link:
http://www.rayservers.com/images/ModernMoneyMechanics.pdf
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Here is a very informative video about central banking and the Federal Reserve.
A must see.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4020719354420953428
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Here are some Zeitgeist links for those interested:
Zeitgeist Addendum:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gKX9TWRyfs
Moving Forward:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
Peter Joseph’s latest radio show:
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/zmglobal/2011/06/29/62911–tzm-host-peter-joseph-guest-john-mcmurtry
—————–
To avoid repeating myself, you can read my comments above if interested. We are in transition already. If we all become informed and expand the conversation, change will accelerate. If we just listen to the nightly news and CSPAN, the system will never change. I know how difficult it is to get people to even consider a different system, but as our numbers increase, and the message gets out from many different sources, acceptance will be more likely. We should not go off on tangents that make us seem like KooKs. The facts do support our cause. We need to become informed, and stay informed. In my humble opinion I think we should stay away from mentioning Hitler, Religion, Jesus etc.
Robert, (Bob) Howes has many good ideas and is taking it to the next level by leading by example.
take care,
Bob (from California)
Bob , the only people who are going to decide a transition stage is the people, when they want a transition and it will come in the way they decide. We have many other things to work out in the time being. Such as language.
Subhendu if we work for exchange of goods as you suggest then we will not be free, we need to rid ourselves of the trader mentality and open ourselves to a mindset of giving.
Many people who read Zeitgeist and socialist ideals are put of by the conformity, and that is one of the main dangers of setting out a transition period and plan. Conformity
As for we will still have to work 40 hours a week , I completely disagree , most of our work is spent producing wasteful and needless commodity items that go almost directly into the land fill within the year. There will be absolutely no need for commodity production. Like wise billions of working hours are wasted by numbering and tagging the financial system , banking, insurance , customs , taxes ,courts solicitors accounting advertizing etc , there will be absolutely no need for this. Here is one idea of a transition , where we can end the money system tomorrow and avoid the pitfall of uniformity, where we can transform capitalism in a fluid , organic and flexible way , where we can tackle all unseen problems as they arise. http://worldwidestrike2012.blogspot.com/
But I want to take you away from that link and bring up 2 other subjects , 1 to consider and 1 where we can all make a positive contribution to a moneyfree world.
For your consideration . Language! Beyond the socialist dream! Lets go beyond socialism, lets go to freedom , freedom to all people, everywhere. Because this is a struggle for freedom not socialism, the socialist might like to hijack it as socialism , the equalitarian might want to hijack it for equality, but this is first and foremost a struggle from economic bondage, a struggle for freedom. We must define FREEDOM and speak its language
Our language separates us , the religions propagate religious dogma not god and the socialist propagate political dogma not freedom.
The use of language is very, very important, Language can inspire , can create, but by now we all know that the people are not inspired by the language of political dogma. If you wish to inspire a world of FREEDOM then use the language of FREEDOM! This is for your consideration.
Next, let us here, now start creating an FAQ about a moneyfree world.
Nick9tap,
I agree 100% with Nick. He is correct in everything he is saying; including the use of the word socialism. I do not like the word “socialism”. Moneyless economy is not socialism. Moneyless economy is complete freedom as Nick says.
But I think both Bob and Nick have some confusion about how to implement a moneyless economy. Allow me to suggest some definitions for different phases of moneyless economy.
(1) The first phase is the Big-Bang moment. This is the moment the moneyless economy starts. It is like midnight tomorrow as I have mentioned before, as an example. It is a single time instant, like an impulse. This activity may kill many people and the leaders will be assassinated.
(2) The next is the Transition phase. This will last for about 10 years as I mentioned before. This is the period when there will be chaos, looting, dishonesty, corruption, sabotaging etc. During this phase we need to work for 40 hours and use 40 hour credit cards. Nick, I never suggested exchange of goods. Lot of people may die in this phase also.
(3) The next phase is Steady State. Here we have stabilized the moneyless economy. People have realized its survivability and its benefits. All opposing forces have died or surrendered. This will take about 10 more years or maybe 20 years.
(4) The final stage is the Evolution Stage. This will last for 1000 years. It is like we are really enjoying the moneyless economy. All the things that Nick is thinking about will happen during this period. Every small person will make small contribution to fine tune and solve small problems of the moneyless economy.
The FAQ idea proposed by Nick is very good. It should be broken into several groups. Each group will explain how each phase described above will be implemented.
Most important thing, where we will all fail, is to implement the Big Bang moment. Probably you do not realize yet, the problems that we will encounter to bring this Big Bang moment.
There will be no difficulties in writing FAQ for all but the first phase. Since you have not addressed the first phase, the Big Bang moment, I will appreciate if we all start writing about it. Remember money power is the strongest power in the world. No one will be able to topple it. The whole US military is behind it. This is not going to be a revolution like in the Arab world. This is about elimination of the central bank or the Fed. It will not give up so easily. Please think and write about this Big Bang moment. Let me know if I have any confusions here.
the welfare people are set to the receiving all that giving. you are right about the insurance banking and government information collection. that currently consumes 50% of our lives, absolutely useless. if those were corrected we would have as close to nirvana as is possible in this world
Hi everyone,
We can use Jolitics to test out ideas as you will see that I have done:
https://jolitics.com/p/post/1340/
Please join Jolitics, it’s free. Put your own proposal. It might not get very many votes but those in favour can be invited to Anthology to debate it further. Then we can agree on further proposals and repeat the process. We need more minds in on this to create more potential solutions. My own proposal has not fared well but three members voted for it. Nick, these are the people. Not all of them, but a cross section certainly. We too are the people. See you in Jolitics…
The first proposal could be “What we need is a moneyless economy”
Cheers,
Bob
***
Bob,
Is this a new site? Creating a new site is a good idea. Here are few suggestions before people move to the new site. (1) We take the wealth we generated here, by accumulating them in a FAQ. (2) We invite all the people from this site to the new site. Particularly those who provided ideas, who demonstrated active participation, during the entire life of this page (3) We keep a link in the new page to acknowledge the history of the evolution.
The main reason for the move maybe to cleanup this mess that has accumulated in this site. We should also design the new page in such a way that we can reduce accumulation of mess in future.
However, as I have pointed out the purpose of money less economy is to (a) Demonstrate that this is the best solution to eliminate poverty from the world (b) It is not socialism, you can still maintain luxurious life style (c) Collecting many possible ideas for creating the Big Bang that will make removal of money power feasible.
We may not have a solution for item (c), but we should propagate items (a) and (b).
reply to tommy, the moneyless system has already been used. the american indian had no money system that I am aware of and they did live in social communities. so a tract record is established. Still comes down to the fact that with the elimination of inheritance (that will break up the monied dynasties) elimination of paper currency and returnig to hard currency removal of ourselves from the IMF elimination of priviledge by licensing government agencies we resolve a large amount of injustce and make a system that will work and be compationate
Chris,
Hard currency is a good step. Provided you define it this way – No money can be printed without having an equivalent amount of gold.
But as you know that this is not a solution. The economy can still create unemployment, transfer of wealth to upper fifth, and poverty around the world.
it isn t the money that creates unemployment, paper or otherwise, paper money is a major evil. there should never be the supplementation for the gold or silver in lieu of the paper. Beware even the gold will be tampered with by the operators. but every system will be tampered with. Like the fore father s warned us we must be ever vigilant. With hard currency and the elimination of inheritance you do indeed eliminate the oligarchy. It is the oligarchy which mandates wars, wasteful economies, oppresses working people. mandates a 40 hour work week when it should be 20 or fewer hours. It is the oligarchy which looks over the crime comitted in communities and more so in the poorer areas diminishing their quality of life. it is all those injustices which should be fairly easy to impliment the change as close to 40% of the population would welcome those corrections. That wouldn t take any 1000 years to implement, wouldn t even take 5 years.
I hear you all.
Great ideas from great minds.
We must remember that equality does not always mean the same life style.
The reason capitalism takes of is cos it allows you to put in effort and make it big. to earn a nice life.
People need an incentive to drag themselves through 10 years of learning to become a neurosurgeon.
These people MUST be rewarded for their efforts.
The system can be such that we are all born equal
(birth defects aside). and we all have the same opportunity to do well and level up.
It simply must be a merit based system.
It has to be.
Today is merit based. I just got my first job as an airline pilot. yesterday was my first day.
I am earning a better life. Thats why i am getting up in the morning.
That side of capitalism works fine but money is not required to achieve this. just lifestyle rewards.
Know that the level up system promotes equality.
it means we start equal. how high we climb is up to us.
Our new friend has some clear logic. I like that the posts are now flowing.
You mentioned going back to gold and silver.
This is still currency.
It is not needed.
what is needed is a way to show the rulers of this money world that the new system is better.
That it promotes infinite growth.
humans just have only one thing to be greedy for, money.
If we open a new system. It can start small. once it grows people can see its better and then migrate to it.
Offer the masses a way to get a good life with no money and they will flock.
Start with a poor nation that has nothing to lose.
In fact, at the moment, greece would be an amazing place to start.
The people are having mass strikes cos they hate the system.
If you were to go there and start recruiting this idea would explode!
let the goverment to as they please.
the people can just make their own leaders….
make their own system.
If they like the idea, they will loan out their buildings as headquarters etc…..
I would like to do something like this.
But i am climbing a mountain of my own already.
If someone set up a stage in one of those protests in greece with a banner “recruiting now” and got on a loud speaker, people could learn the system and leave their email address.
they could be spammed emails and meetings could be made. They could be given incentive to recruit others like in a ponzi or pyramid scheme.
You could call for people to give things that are useful to the cause. not money but things like a compound to work from.
you begin signing up people, citizens of a new age.
the local bakery now advertises that members eat free.
you guys get the idea?
it would just snowball if it got to that point.
what do you think?
Tommy,
Great ideas, and very encouraging! Congratulations on your first job!
I will post responses in many small increments, with time delays for possible interactions. I like the iterative approach Bob mentioned. But Tommy, I have to contradict one of your thoughts. Please do not mind. I should do this because it is related to the fundamentals. We must understand this clearly, to firmly root the money less economy. This post is long so read when you have some good time.
You have said “The reason capitalism takes of is cos it allows you to put in effort and make it big. to earn a nice life.”
What I am writing below is high school stuff. Assume that the total material wealth of a nation is equivalent to a pot of gold. That is, this gold represents all the automobiles, airplanes, missiles, roads, bridges etc., or in other words this is the GDP, the gross domestic product. Similarly assume that the total money available is a bag of dollar bills. This bag is the equivalent to the total money in the economy. This bag of money has an one to one relationship with this pot of gold. This bag of money can buy only that pot of gold.
By the law of conservation (LOC) this pot of gold cannot grow. This law says that the mass and energy cannot be created or destroyed; it can only be transformed from one form to another form. This bag of money cannot grow either, because this is equivalent to that pot of gold and is attached to it by the LOC.
We all know that the Fed (the central bank of USA) can print another bag of money, out of thin air. It is a private bank and only it can print money without any restrictions, transparency, and accountability to anyone. Money is free for the Fed and it can give it to anyone it chooses. Now these two bags can buy that pot of gold.
This extra bag doubles the price of the pot of gold causing inflation. If this money is allocated only to the top fifth of the population then their share of the pot of gold will increase, changing the wealth distribution. According to the LOC, since the gold cannot increase, the share of the bottom fifth will then naturally decrease causing transfer of wealth. This transfer of wealth happens not only because the money share decreases for the bottom fifth, the price of gold also increases, and thus reducing their purchasing power.
According to the LOC there cannot exist a win-win situation. When someone wins, someone else must lose. In every win-win situation, a detailed analysis will always show that there is third party who will be the loser. Thus the LOC says that the transfer of wealth must happen when someone becomes richer.
You can easily see now that printing money is not the only way to transfer wealth, the profiting and the interest charging, are also ways of transferring wealth. The capitalism is precisely designed to make that transfer happen. Wealth transfer happens only when you make money without contributing to the pot of gold or to the GDP. Thus stock market gain is a way to transfer wealth. In fact the entire financial system is a means to transfer wealth. That is because the financial system can redistribute the quantity of money.
So we become rich not because of our caliber, but because of the clever design of capitalism by the central bank.
actually what you wrote is quite accurate, and well written. you should archive it for future reference. it is probably quite important. the wealthy have quite a few schemes for removing the wealth from the working class and puting it in their hands. the montivation for change must be for correcting those methods. many people who could have easily been surgeons etc were deprived because of the methods of society blocking upward movement. besides hard currency which helps control the greed of the mighty to a degree, people need to be informed of their right to use promissary notes, (paper curency) to create a flexible system. capitalism and communisum are different words for the same thing. In capitalism one calls a corpoate manager his immediate boss and that boss funds the election which puts the government in place. in communism the boss is the government, it is just more direct, neither do the best for the producer
Chris,
Fascinating is your way of comparing communism and capitalism. In fact one author, Dr. Larry Bates an economist, banker, and legislator said, in communism capital (money, machines, and men – which is labor) is owned by the party and not by the people. Therefore, communism is same as capitalism. You may not know that the Bolshevik war was financed by capitalism. The purpose was to eliminate the dictators, the Czars or the Kings in Russia.
One other thing, why do you not like 40 hours? Why do you want to work for 20 hours only? America is proud of its efficient, hard working labor force. In money-less economy, you will see that you will work day and night all the time. That is because you will love your work so much, beyond your imagination. You will be doing what you really want to do.
I agree that in capitalism you hate working. Because people are forced to work in jobs that they do not like or the environment of exploitation that we do not enjoy. In fact I say the following:
My boss rapes me 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, in my cubicle. My body is sick, diseased, and I am exhausted. I wait for the weekends to come. The whole America waits for the weekends and probably for the same reason. On Monday I become sad again, I do not feel healed enough. I am worried if I am ready to take it for another week. – You probably know that the heart attack rate is highest on Mondays.
There was a beautiful American country music song, that brings tears in my eyes, described how sad was her working life.
Thanks for your appreciation of my previous post on the laws of conservation.
it really wouldn t be the 20 vs 40 hour work week situation, if you do the math. currently ther are 40 million productive people carrying the load for 340 million, true all is not done.but allthat is done is done by those few. for the same effect each would haave to work 5 hours a week. now i know ther are competency problems etc. but by math that is the situaion. 40 hours would require standing around the water cooler for 35 hours per week hardly enticing
Tommy,
You have said a very good point: “the local bakery now advertises that members eat free.”
Let me track that idea to implement a moneyless economy in the neighborhood of the bakery.
(1) Assume that the employees of the bakery agree to work free for 40 hours and in return they get free food from the bakery. (2) Then the bakery will have to get, say wheat powder for free from his supplier. Let us say that the supplier agrees to accept our deal and gives everything free also. (3) Then the wheat powder supplier will have to go to the manufacturer who makes powder from the raw wheat grains. Let us say this manufacturer also agrees with our deal. (4) The manufacturer will then have to go to the farmer who produces the wheat grain. Let us say that he also agrees to accept our deal of moneyless economy. (5) This farmer requires, water, electricity, and gasoline to run his farm. Let us assume that the farmer uses wind power to get electricity, and a water pump on his land to pull water. But he gets gasoline from the big oil corporation. (6) Now we have the bottleneck. The big oil corporation refuses to accept our deal. So the entire chain of plan from item (1) to (6) fails.
Oil and electricity are two crucial items for us to survive. Without them nothing will work. Thus we cannot start on a small scale. We must take a country, maybe Greece as you suggested or Libya.
ok i guess i should have said what i meant. i mean the world today allows me to become something like a pilot. in todays world i can put in effort and get reward.
this should be protected. infact, it should be the foundation of the new world.
this merit based idea and the desire to aquire lifestyle is what will take us to the stars….
Tommy,
You are always right. You will be always protected and rewarded. God is always with you. Every design is created by God. Capitalism is no exception. The role we play inside capitalism or in any other systems is also pre-planned. Everybody everywhere got rewarded. Everybody has definite purpose for this world. We have all come for a specific role to participate in a bigger plan designed by god.
In fact reward and merit will be more meaningful and satisfying in the money-less system. In a money-less system we will be closer to god. Our souls will remain untainted by greed, cheating, and lying. Holiness will come inside you.
Consider you are working in a corporation. You are going to your work tomorrow. Your activities for tomorrow are precisely planned. You know what exactly you will do during the next eight hours. The project plan has been created by the project leader. The assignments have been allocated to everybody working for your project. The complete activities and their time line is built into your project management software. During this planning phase you participated, you agreed what you will do, how long it will take, what tools you need etc. So now when you go to work tomorrow, your activities are precisely pre-planned. You do not have any room for play; and why would you play; you created the plan jointly with everyone.
Thus if you think carefully, you will see every moment is precisely planned for all of us. This is true for the entire life. A bigger view is necessary to fully accept it and I will point out later in another post.
I hope you and all others agree with my law of conservation thing. I would like some negative criticism. Only then I can improve myself. Positive criticism helps but does not improve the concept or the theory.
I don’t think this is true.
Almost all work done today could be completely eliminated in a moneyless society. Businesses are structured specifically for self perpetuation and all jobs geared towards that end would vanish into thin air. Accounting, advertising, sales, human resources, even a lot of R&D, all gone. These skills require effort to learn and it wouldn’t be as simple as saying, OK go do whatever you want.
In a moneyless society, there would be no need for 500 different kinds of cell phones, or 50 different kinds of laundry detergent. The variety of products would experience an extreme contraction because there would be no need to produce anything but the absolute best. And people would come to settle for nothing but the best.
What you would end up with are hundreds of millions if not billions of people with absolutely nothing to do. Imagine what would happen if all the people sitting at their desks dreaming of fishing suddenly got the chance to do so? Every lake in the world would be fished out in a matter of months. Imagine if every closet potter, or furniture maker, or quilter, regardless of talent, suddenly got the chance to pursue their passion? You’d see mountain ranges worth of unwanted crap produced by all the bored people who used to have jobs.
I’ve been thinking about this problem, off and on, for two years and I really don’t see any practical way to eliminate money. The real problem is how it’s distributed, not that it exists. I think all that’s really required to eliminate the gross distortions in wealth distribution, would be to institute one, conceptually simple change: Abolish all forms of interest.
Without interest, money would return to it’s roots, a simple medium of exchange. No one could earn one cent just sitting on their pile of cash and letting it earn interest. If you put money in a bank, that’s how much you can withdraw. If you invest in a company, you get your investment back, but not one cent more. Without the fantasy of unearned millions or billions, money would become much less important as a thing unto itself and would return to being just a convenient mechanism for acquiring the things you want and need.
Abolishing interest also eliminates the need for hard currencies because all money would be backed by actual productivity, rather magical financial schemes, or arbitrary perceptions of value for things such as gold.
Hi KT,
I got confused with your comments.
You started with “I don’t think this is true.” But you did not mention which one you are referring to.
Did you read the recent postings on this page? I understand it is very difficult and confusing to read this page and quickly get the latest status of the art we are developing. I think Bob should think about how to solve this problem. There must be some software solutions. Maybe we can create some keywords with links that will sequentially take us through the latest art. Or some kind of drop down menus.
There are some designs given on how money less economy will work. KT, please look for them.
This confusions are happening repeatedly, because we do not have the FAQ now. I have requested Bob, Nick, Chris, Tommy to see if something can be done to direct any one of us at the correct item number in the FAQ list.
KT, we have also a list of different phases of implementation stage of money less economy. Please look at that. What you are saying about the products and technology is absolutely true in the final phase of money less economy. But during the initial phases, that is, for the first 10 years or so, we have to do different things.
It has been mentioned somewhere in this page that in the money-less economy you have to work for free for 40 hours every week. Otherwise you do not get your free food and free shelter. Please look at these things and comment.
I will eagerly wait for your views.
I was actually responding to one of your earlier posts from July 2, 2011 6:17:18 PM EDT the one that contained this statement:
A couple of years ago, I got to talking with someone else on this thread and we actually spent about 8 months working on a site/trading ideas etc, so none of these ideas are all that new to me.
In the ensuing year and a half, I’ve come to view the problem not with money, per se, but with it’s distribution and the ways it can be artificially “grown” through interest and other financial gimmicks, like stocks.
As to this:
I just don’t see any advantage to it. You’re not actually eliminating money, you’re just replacing it with a complex system of rules and regulations that accomplish essentially the same thing.
Money isn’t the root of all evil, it’s actually a pretty slick invention. What is evil is interest and the gross overvaluation of certain skills.
KT,
Thanks for responding back.
Please read my post on June 30, 2011. That was probably my first day on your site. That describes what money is now; and how 40 hours replaces it.
After reading that let me know why this creates more complex set of rules and regulations. We have 40 hours now; in the moneyless system also we will have 40 hours. So no changes happens there. Therefore no more new rules are required also. So complexity cannot increase.
The requirement is we work free. So complex rules related to tax, pensions, banking accounts all go away. So it becomes significantly simpler. No more need for the entire financial systems.
Tell me now why this is more complex. When everything is free all rules and regulations vanishes. You cannot have anything simpler than that.
The slogan is – work free and get everything free.
only adddresses a small portion of the problems. hard currency puts the hardest bind on the oligarchy and their crimes against humanity. elimination or at least marginalize it to no more than 2% might hellp the abuse. most important and should be done at the earliest moment is the elimination of inheritance. inheritance is where the monied dynasties have kept the bind on humanity. Ther insessant demeaning methods conducting wars, manufacturing waar machines, using their government machines to harass innnocent persons and causing their havoc.
I just put a proposal on Jolitics:
https://jolitics.com/p/post/1487/
Cheers,
Bob
***
In order to lessen confusion on this site, please do a ctrl f for find and put in the date:
july 4, 2011 then simply go through them with up or down arrows as necessary. Or search on names or any key word you want to see each mention of. Simple.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Problems of a merit system
Merit given for work done
Capitalism works on merit, the more you work the more access you have to the material . Same as a system of merit.
Capitalism favours one job above another so would a merit system
How do we measure worth? A sewer worker prevents millions of people catching diseases, a brain surgeon may only save the lives of a couple of hundred people.
Who measures the worth? A hierarchy?
If someone chooses to study for a certain job it is their choice, no one is forcing them into that career , in fact they choose that career because its what they want to do. Would you prefer to study for 10 years or would you prefer to work down the sewers for 10 years ? The choice is yours.
We are all different and in a free society we should not expect greater rewards than others. A Free society is not just a transformation of trade and government it is a transformation of consciousness, away with the trade consciousness! and in with the giving consciousness . We will give our time freely, and those that others deem more value will benefit from greater social respect , one of the key driving forces of our society, of any society.
Being born gifted talented, dynamic is very lucky! Do these people then require material compensation for their luck? A merit system implies they should.
We all have equal rights and responsibility to the earth and it is each person right to express these rights and responsibilities in the way that they choose.
Freedom is the right to work and the right not to work.
nic, a socio path if told to go left will go right if told to go up will go down. they comprise more than 8% of the population by expert identification, I believe the figure is much higher. I believe tommy indicated more people will sit back and do little if rewards are not in the making for the hard work. take tiger woods, he was a little guy and as such didn t have the natural talent to hit the ball as far as his contemporarys , it is not likely that he would have taken the time and or energy to learn to hit he long ball if there were no reward at the end of the hard work. the number of people who would be the sucker to work hard for the ataboy once in a while are certainly so few in society at large that colaspe would be within a few years. you may do it yourself, you have to realize the dynamics of a population. there are alone 20% of the populaton who are satisfied on welfare. 10% are sociopaths, 5% are government employee, 10% are oligarchial absolutely none of that croud will embrace that that is nearly 50%, it is doubtful that you would have concenses of the remaining 50%, I think you would end up with less than 25% wanting to attempt that situation
Nick,
When you get everything you need for free then why do you need a merit system?
You want a corporate jet, go get it from the store it is free for you. You want a pilot, ask some one who can fly, he will fly it for free.
When everything is free there is no need for any rules or regulations. All you have to do is work for 40 hours, and you also work for free.
Please see my first post on June 30, 2011. That defines how the money less economy is designed and used.
Please let me know if I have addressed your merit issue.
be sure to join the group http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=19960438519
Subhendu Das, Do you wanna get this one?
I has this out with Nick a while back.
Its important to realize nick that you are special in this world and of the extreme few who would be happy to work all day and only rewarded with social acceptance.
Given the choice of working and having a particular standard of living and not working while having that same standard of living, the choice is simple, sleep in all day, play xbox, go fishing etc…..
me thinks its a quick road to nowhere if people have no reason to better themselves and build lifestyle options. This is no way to promote expansion of the humans into a space faring race.
We must be encuriaged to work and grow.
Mr Das? your thoughts?
Tommy,
Money less economy does not mean you do not work. From the very first day I said you have to work for 40 hours; and only then you get everything you want for free.
So, in your discussion with Nick you say:
“Given the choice of working and having a particular standard of living and not working while having that same standard of living, the choice is simple, sleep in all day, play xbox, go fishing etc”¦..”
You can see the error – not working while having that same standard of living. This is not the design of the money less economy. There is no escape from work – that is our karma.
You work free and only then you get everything you need free.
We cannot go forward to a free society if we are forcing people to work. Everyone is special! and our society should reflect this.
What right have you or anyone else to impose your values onto others? [this is known as facism]
To change the world we must first change ourselves, [think you should take a good look at yourself]
Why would forcing people into work and then grading their work into usefull, less usefull encourage people to grow? Does it work in this society? The only growth we see is materialism and inequality, and you want to apply the same priciples into a moneyfree world?
in our present society we are “encouraged” to work and “grow” grow = material accumalation be it bank balance or luxury items.
surely in a free society the emphasis will not be on material growth but on spiritual and emotional growth?
And Tommy you have NOT answered any of the valid points I have mentioned against merit systems.
In a mature debate we respond logically to points made, we dont try to quiet people with meaningless platitudes.
Nick,
In a money less economy we are not forcing people to work. If you do not work you do not get food and shelter. That is the same system we have now also.
We are not imposing our values on others also. In fact in capitalism we are imposing values. We are forcing to work on tobacco companies, military companies. In a money less economy you choose your work, anywhere you want, on any subject you want. You have complete freedom to choose your job. This is not feasible now in capitalism.
In capitalism, I want to work, but I cannot get a job. Thus in present time even though I want to work and buy my food and shelter, I cannot do that. In money less economy that will be completely gone. I will always have enough work.
Money less economy will profoundly change ourselves. Capitalism forces us to change in a particular direction dictated by the central bank. It imposes its value on us. In money less economy you decide what value you want to pursue. I am sure everyone will purse Bible.
We are not grading anybody in money less economy. There is no need for merit. Since everything is free. No rules and regulations are required.
In a money less economy, you want material growth, you can have it also. People are working free. There are seven billion people. You will always find people who will produce whatever you want. Since they have to work free for 40 hours, they will come and build your product.
I am willing to answer all your points valid or invalid, simple or complex. Please post them only one at a time, I will try to answer them one by one and as long as you are not satisfied.
But please read again my June 30, 2011 post that defines what money less economy is and how it works. If you find anything wrong there let me know. I am open to all negative questions, that is the only way I can improve my design. Negative questions detect flaws. They are very much needed.
I agree that we should not be made to work, but work should be made enjoyable so that enough of us do enough of it to create the food, clothing, housing and so on that we all need or desire. I decide what work I do right now, including writing this, but also working outside doing battle with the Japanese knotweed and brambles and all kinds of other work. I’ll be freegan shopping in the wee small hours. And I have two houses to work on before I can rent them out again to get my meager income. At present I have no income other than a little interest on savings.
Robert,
We are made to work now under capitalism. If we do not work we do not get anything now. That will remain same in the money less economy also.
Work will be very enjoyable in money less economy because you choose your work, anywhere in the world, and on any subject you want.
Now under capitalism, we do not decide what work we do. We have to work on what is available. We may have to work on tobacco companies knowing fully well that the product causes cancer. We may be forced to work on military places knowing that my product will be used to create war. We do not have choices, because we have very few jobs than the number of people looking for jobs.
In a money less economy there will be as many jobs as there are number of people. You decide what you will work on and continue working on it as long as it does benefit to the society. In money less economy every thing is voluntary, since it is free.
Most people in the moneyfree movement want to create a classless society. What tommy is suggesting is a class ridden society. further the 40 hour work malarky/ why the hell do we have to work at all, most of whats produced can be produced by machine and technology .
seems some of you kids want a moneyfree society with the same values and inequalitys as a money society.
Implementing and creating labour saving machinery that has been put on the back burner becuase of the fear of the unemployment it will make, will be one of our first prioritys.
Most people do want to do some work, in fact many people become depressed and some commit suicide when they become eunemployed. One of our amazing traits is that we need to feel usefull and we crave for social respect [hence all the bling and staus sysmbol in the capitalist society]
sorry boys a society based on a merit system will be a class ridden society with great inequality and it definetly wont get my vote or most of the moneyfree movements vote
A moneyfree society based on merit will be social/facism
Nick,
Please read my first post on June 30, 2011. There I have defined what money less economy is and how it works.
I did not say it creates a class less society. I have mentioned there that if you want to live in a big house, you can have it. Hire a contractor he will build it for you for free. Since he will have to work free for 40 hours.
If you want a corporate jet, you can have it too. It will be free for you. But remember you also have to work free for 40 hours a week. Without that you do not get anything just like now.
We cannot produce everything now with machines and technology. So at present moment we have to work for 40 hours and provide the manual labor required. I have described in another post different phases for implementing money less economy. At the final phase you will get what you want. But you cannot get now in the first phase of the money less economy. Society and technology are not ready.
While its good to discuss different ideas about a moneyfree world, its good to remeber that although many of us have different ideas, ultimately the implementation and planning will be made democraticly by the people.
Hi Nick,
But the people cannot vote democratically without being organised in some way. Do you have any suggestions as to how this might be achieved? The Socialist Party of Great Britain (SPGB) have been trying this for over 100 years without any success at all. The Zeitgeist movement is attempting it, after a fashion. My own attempts have not met with success yet (but I’m hopeful). Your strike might have a committee. Is that your plan? If not, do you have any further suggestions?
Cheers,
Bob
***
Bob, Nick
Both of you are talking about voting for implementation. Organization for voting etc.
What will be the voting subject or issue? – Replace capitalism by money less economy. Is it?
Suppose we vote and the motion passes. Then who will implement? – Government or Organization that you have created?
None of them have power over capitalism, which is headed by the Central Bank. In USA the central bank is the Federal Reserve Bank.
No one can change the central bank. It is a private bank. It is controlled and protected by money power. It is protected by US military and US laws. The US laws that protect the central bank cannot be changed. These laws are also protected by money power.
rathar than have a platform so dramatically different from the present, pick a few major issues, as: in the public eye is the damaging effects of the federal reserve and its paper money, the evil of wall street, and the plague and ineffectiveness of insurance. propose to abolish all those systems, if correction is effected and an improvement in lifestyle is noted most will welcome further changes in the system
Chris,
This site is to think, design, plan, and implement money less economy. We are not setup for alternatives or small incremental steps.
Any thing that threatens money, small or big, cannot be implemented. The money power will block it. However, you have given a good line of thinking.
The only hope is that capitalism will also fail, just like imperialism did. The question is when. It is a law of nature that everything has a birth process, maturity process, and the death process.
Subhendu,
You have only been here a few days and seem to be dictating exactly what this site is for and what it is not for. Please just put your ideas down in writing and leave others to do so. We don’t need Big Brother here. Thank you.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Bob,
You are very angry with me. This is quite natural for me; at least fifty people before you expressed their anger to me in the similar way. It will take time for me to understand all of you who were together for so many years and know how things happened and should happen.
When I write, I write many things then I delete many things iteratively, I finally get frustrated and decide enough of it, and post it. In this process what gets finally posted sometimes becomes complex, not understandable, and confusing. This is because English is my second language.
I hope Chris too is not mad at me when I wrote about the goal of the site. Actually in my first draft version of that post, I added many more items to the list Chris suggested. Then I deleted all of them and decided to stay focused to my ideas money less economy.
It is indeed a good idea to pursue many alternatives that Tommy and Chris suggested. I would also like people to explore and express the supernatural views expressed by Brian and Danny and give me the opportunity to learn more. I think people also should question my belief that (1) money power is the most powerful power (2) people’s movement cannot bring fundamental changes, (3) bigger power is absolutely necessary etc.
All I am trying to describe is some economic, physical or natural, and supernatural laws. I believe that more global and integrated views you take, you get a better in understanding of the problem. At the same time more details you go, deeper into the atomic level, you see the origin or the root cause also.
I do not know if I am acting like a big brother. First of all I am not big at all. It has been well established that I am a stupid fool and I very well recognize that. I am glad that you questioned and criticized my views. It shows that you express what you really feel. That is what it should be and only then I can improve. It is said that only negative feedback can stabilize systems.
Subhendu,
Your English seems fine, I think you have had an expensive education. Do your folks not speak English? Do you know about ordinal positions in families? For instance i am the younger brother of an older brother. Are you an older brother of a younger brother? These ordinal positions influence very strongly your personality as you grow. I have not studied it for some time. A good book is “First Child, Second Child” Can’t remember the authors. These different ordinal positions make us all different. Good thing too. But that does not stop us understanding things when they are presented correctly, in practice, or should I say praxis? I guess you are a young guy. I am not so young but I got my ideas when I was young. Please come up with some stuff that I for one would not criticise.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Hi All,
I do not want to pour cold water on suggestions and contributions posted on this blog and wish you all every success in your endevours to establish a moneyless society, but we are up against insurmountable opposition from the elite and establishment. At present we must accept that
money = power
and
moneyless = powerless
The task is to make money powerless and solely a means of exchange. The first step in a plan to achieve this must be to make it illegal to create money out of thin air (central banks) and apply interest (usury) to all money.
Here in the UK Members of Parliament and other members of the establishment swear an oath of allegance to Queen Elizabeth, and in the Coronation Oath made by the Queen she agrees to the utmost of her power to maintain the Laws of God and the true profession of the Gospel.
This raises a very interesting question ” does Gods Law make it lawful to create money out of thin air and apply interest”?
I don’t have a legal background and I am not religious but believe I’m spiritual and would welcome any light that you could shed on Gods Law.
Regards,
Brian
gods law prohibits from charging your brother usuary or interest, shock change seldom works, i believe corportaions should be prevented from creating money from thin air, however to have some fairness and flexibility in the exchange place it is probaley less of a bad idea for individuals to have the ability to create wealth out of thin air. that is generally called making a note, so that a young person who hasn t the money to buy a house out right can write a note to the person in possession that he will pay for the house over time and take immediate possession of the same. many other things need changing this is just one small item. to eliminate paper money is an important thing that needs doing immediately, there are some problems is not exchange basis at all at least unless man has a dramatic transfiguration
Brian:
I totally agree with your usury comments, but there’s nothing wrong with creating money out of thin air. All money is perception, even gold backed money.
Gold has no intrinsic value whatsoever, it’s just a chemical element and the only value it has is our subjective perception of it’s worth. Today, money is backed by a different subjective perception, the reliability or stability of the country (or countries) issuing the currency.
Uncoupling money from a specific resource was a step in the right direction because it eliminated the possibility that a small group or even a single entity could gain control of all the world’s wealth through hoarding of that resource. Fiat money gives governments the flexibility to keep their economies running with cash infusions when parts of the system get locked up. It is a delicate balancing act, to be sure, but it’s better than the old “hard currency” systems because in times of trouble, we can now give economies a blood transfusion. With hard currency, our only options would be to submit to the will of resource controller, to forcefully take, (or kill) the resource controller, or sit by and watch in horror as the patient (the economy) dies.
After mulling this problem for two years, I think the real issue humanity needs to tackle is not the elimination of money, but the creation of a rational means of evaluating work. Some jobs ARE more important than others and those that put in the effort to master those jobs do deserve extra for their efforts, but there is no rational argument to justify paying certain individuals a yearly salary what would take others 100, 500, 1000 years to earn. There is not a person alive who is that productive or that smart.
Permitting this distributional flaw, or arguing as many do that it is actually a good thing, is real problem, not the existence of money per se.
Before anything happens on the implementation side, humanity needs to decide, as a species, what rights birth confers to us. Should all life be a struggle because that’s how we better ourselves? Or should some basic things be guaranteed like access to reasonably healthy foods, at least some leisure time, basic health care etc… If we can agree on that, we can move on to exactly how to place value and how to reward individual effort without creating aberrations like Bill Gates, Warren Buffett or baseball players who earn $70 million for 5 season’s play.
Kt,
You said “I think the real issue humanity needs to tackle is not the elimination of money, but the creation of a rational means of evaluating work.”
I have answered this question before please see my post on July 4, 2011, at 11:51 am. You are still thinking in terms of merits. I have mentioned that – in the new economic system you will always get whatever you want and it will be always free. Then why do we need to evaluate people?
Subhendu: “I have answered this question before please see my post on July 4, 2011, at 11:51 am. You are still thinking in terms of merits. I have mentioned that in the new economic system you will always get whatever you want and it will be always free. Then why do we need to evaluate people?”
Mentioning something is not the same as solving it. No matter how much you may wish otherwise, some ideas have merit and some ideas do not. Some people work hard and some do not.
Without some mechanism for evaluating a person’s contributions, your “40 hour scheme,” would collapse when large numbers of people realized that all they have to do to get everything they wants is to spend their week digging holes and filling them up again. While those who spend years solving difficult human problems gain nothing for their extra efforts.
No system will ever work without some sort of mechanism for determining the worth of someone’s work. How we evaluate that worth is the question.
KT,
You have said -
“”¦large numbers of people realized that all they have to do to get everything they wants is to spend their week digging holes and filling them up again.”
World is full of problems now and waiting for us to solve them and are you saying that we will not have jobs to do in money less economy.
We need so many volunteers in Haiti, which suffered a major earthquake last year, we have tsunami victims in Japan and they need help. People are dying in Africa with hunger; they are desperately crying for help from west. We cannot go to moon to see the earth; we cannot go to stars to find aliens. We can build railroads across the globe; we have not invented good battery that will store electric energy during the night. We do not know so many things that we want and need. I do not see any reasons to feel lost that we may not have work to do in the new moneyless economy.
There will be some need for digging holes and filling them like laying fiber optic or high power electric cables. But I think I have also mentioned that the work that we do, as dedicated servant, must serve the society, people, and god. I have also mentioned on my June 30 post, that we must trust ourselves instead of that number (which represents money now) on the computer. This trust, honesty, and hard work will become automatic in money less economy. Yes we will need government, management system, computers in the new money less economy also, at least during the first phase after the Big Bang.
As I have mentioned, our mindset will change dramatically in money less economy. We cannot think of that change now under the present capitalistic frame work.
Brian,
You have said “The task is to make money powerless and solely a means of exchange”.
This is not what I have been talking about. Please see my post on June 30, 2011.
I have said money will not be there in the new economic system. It will be replaced by 40 hours.
Since money is not there in the new system, there is no need for a means of exchange. On the same, June 30, post I have mentioned you will get anything you want for free. You do not have to buy or pay anything to get anything. All you have to do is work free for 40 hours every week, in return you get everything free.
Are you, by any chance in UK? Do we have any one from Germany in this group?
Subhendu: “I have said money will not be there in the new economic system. It will be replaced by 40 hours.”
I have read and completely understand your idea, but one thing you never seem to acknowledge is that in this new world you envision, literally millions of jobs become totally superfluous. They would cease to exist. You can’t “work 40 hours” if there is no longer anything left for you to do.
Just showing up at some post-money business and declaring yourself ready to work is not enough if that business doesn’t have anything for you to do.
Sales, gone. Accounting, gone. Insurance, gone. Banking, gone. Investing, gone. Advertising, gone. Lots of other jobs, gone. What are all the people who have put in time and effort learning these skills going to do for their mandated 40 hours? Pick lettuce?
kt, at least for a first in their life they would have a productive purpose, and that would be a positive for mankind
Chris
As delicious as it is to imagine Wall Street assholes out in the hot sun picking lettuce, we would have to seriously ramp up our salad intake in to create productive work for the millions of newly jobless bankers, insurance brokers, sales people, ad people etc…
I like salad as much as the next guy, but I’m not prepared to eat to 50 pounds of the stuff per day just to give the displaced millions something to do
Kt,
You have said “literally millions of jobs become totally superfluous. They would cease to exist. You can’t “work 40 hours” if there is no longer anything left for you to do.”
We have discussed this issue before. Please see my post on July 2, 2011, at 3:20 pm.
The main idea is that – on the first day after roll over from money-based economy to money-less economy, if we all do not go to our work places as usual and do not work for 40 hours, tremendous chaos can take over the society.
Imagine what can happen electric power stations will stop, airplanes will not fly, teachers will not come to schools, grocery stores will be looted, there will be no food etc. To prevent these things from happening we have to maintain everything as it is now by working 40 hours. Things will take time to slowly change to the new money less economy. I am expecting this period will last for 10 years.
It may be possible for us to work for 20 hours and still satisfy our needs, as the society moves to the other phases of development as I have described on my July 2 post.
But I still have a feeling work hours will not reduce. Imagine when computers were not there 30 years back. Everybody thought that the introduction of computers will reduce the labor force. But it did not happen. We needed more people to do more computer related jobs. New kind of jobs will appear in our new economy.
These days in capitalism, many of us are doing over time. We cannot seem to finish our jobs in 40 hours. There are people, in universities, factories; and there are business men, politicians who are working more than 60 hours a week now. So I have doubt that work hours will reduce.
The number of hours issue can be managed, monitored, and controlled as and when it changes according to the needs of the society. But we have to work and it must be free. No work, no food.
kt, in reality now most here have talked about this matter, but those your are referring to are for the most part sociopaths, they would have to be institutionzlized, not imprisioned as it has been shown that that will not work on sociopaths, they cannot be allowed to interact with civilized as they cannot act civilized they have not the capacity. they must be exiled to be amongst those the same as they. the general belief if that they comprise 6% ofthe population I believe it is in excess of 10%. they can be easily determined before the age of 16 and should be separated at that time. actually when all the abuse is ended the workweek need not be more than 20 hours a week, a person should be able to retire before 40, i m not the most sold on the money less idea as of now, maybe as some indicated that might be in 1000 years. we do need to eliminate the paper money system now and the jobs you indicate and thus share the work load
no, paper money is the primary problem, there is nothing but fake faith in criminal persons, gold as you state can still be messed with to a point, but we know if it is not in you hands you have nothing but some one s promise which is just as likely not good as it is good. Paper curency was outlawed by the founding fatheres in the United States because they knew of the evils they had seen recently, they established gold as a currency as it kept things tied to a commodity. nothing stops people from passing notes from one to another for flexablity, you really need to study the money issue, today the fiat money system of the earth is owned by approximately 4,000 families, that s what a paper money system will always lead to, you are right on the reassesment of jobs and pay, but those things can be done by working persons and paying direct in cash to eliminate the government s from our financial lives, things will fall into place
Subhendu: “We have discussed this issue before. Please see my post on July 2, 2011, at 3:20 pm.”
OK. Read it. Nothing new. You seem to believe that something in your scheme is too subtle for people to understand on the first read. That’s not the case.
Your “Big bang” moment, where millions of people are compelled (by some authority I assume) to return to now superfluous jobs like banking, insurance, advertising, sales etc won’t survive your “10 year transition” period. In fact, it probably wouldn’t last a month. For people in these industries, there would be no functional or practical difference between playing solitaire or “doing their jobs,” writing ad copy, formulating investment strategies, etc… because their jobs have been rendered utterly pointless in the moneyless world.
When I first encountered the idea of a moneyless society, I was giddy at the prospect, as you seem to be now, but the ensuing two years have dampened my initial enthusiasm. Not because it is a bad idea, but because there really are serious complexities involved.
Take your 40 hour “Big bang” scheme. When you say “If you don’t work, you don’t eat” how exactly do you plan to enforce this? When people in extinct professions tire of the pretense that playing solitaire 40 hours per week is work, they will simply stop wasting their time and will riot for the food. I wouldn’t blame them one bit. I’ve worked my share of boring and meaningless jobs and it truly sucks. You will never persuade people to agree to this for a month, let alone 10 years.
Kt,
You may be right. If it does not last more than a month then it is better, we will go along that way. The numbers I have given are only design parameters. They are just computer variables. May change any time.
There is some hints in implementing the money less economy on my June 30 post. It says that this 40 hours will replace the numbers on our computer. This computer has our salary information now. It will be replaced by 40 hours. The management of the computers will still be with all the people who are managing it now. We will still use the credit cards which will have 40 hours written on it instead of money values now.
In fact no one even need to know that we have moved from money based economy to money less economy. Government will mange the entire money less economy secretly to start with to prevent the chaos.
All you will see, for example, that there are lots of jobs now. Any one who wants a job, will get the job. Since money is not there, you may not even need to know that you are not getting paid. You will use your credit card, you will also do not need know what is there on the credit card. You cannot read it even now; you really do not know what is there even now. So, we can just keep it the old way.
This is just one of many possible and feasible ideas. I am sure you can come up with many such meaningful methods also.
I can write a big document describing the requirements, design, implementation etc for a money less system. But who will read it. It will become a 100 page word document, with figures, block diagrams, graphs, time line, work break down structure, management hierarchy etc.
Here in this site, through this interaction we can only solve some high level stuff. However, if we want we can setup a dedicated working committee to create such a document.
Most important problem to be solved is not the design. It is in the Big Bang moment. Without any idea on how to achieve that moment money-less economy will not happen.
Nobel laureate in economics, Milton Friedman said – “One unsolved economic problem of the day is how to get rid of the Federal Reserve”. This is the Big Bang moment problem.
If we cannot come up with the ideas for Big Bang, then there is no point in discussing, 40 hours, types of jobs, merits etc. It is like who will bell the cat story. Money power is the biggest power to overthrow.
If we start evaluating work then we inadvertently create class and a class ridden society is what we DONT want. In fact it is the evaluation of work that has helpt determine capitalist society.
Also IF we did evaluate work , who would do the evaluation? If it was democraticly done then the most common job would be the most highly valued?
I am totally against the objective evaluation of the human expression
Nick,
You have said it perfectly. I agree with you 100%. We should not evaluate. I give more reasons to show that (1) it is not possible to evaluate and (2) we do not evaluate now in capitalism also.
(A) In nature we do not say apple is good and orange is bad. We do not even think along that line. We never thought that we have to compare apples and oranges. Similarly, we do not say cat is good and dog is bad; sun is good and moon is bad; winter is better than summer, etc. We never distinguish things in nature, we accept them as they are, and accepted them very honestly and sincerely. Why then we say Mr. X is bad and Mr. Y is good? We are also part of nature. Why don’t we accept each other as we are?
The main reason of distinguishing people is that those who are in power want to control us. They want to stamp some people as good to increase their sphere of influence and some as bad. And unfortunately we bought into that idea. It is them, the power people, who introduced the good and bad words in the human society.
(B) In capitalism we do not evaluate people. We just arbitrarily stamp people. Since capitalism is totally dictatorial, we can be fired if we disagree, we accepted the false evaluation done by our bosses. Not only we accepted it, we started believing it also.
Suppose Mr X is doing job A and Mr Y is doing job B. This is the normal situation in every corporation and in all work places. How can you compare Mr X and Mr Y? They are doing two different jobs. It is like comparing apples and oranges. Unless they do the same job you cannot compare them. In capitalism same job is never given to two different persons at the same time. You cannot compare Job A and Job B either. For they are two different things; again like apples and oranges. Thus when we compare we do not do it scientifically, we just use their personalities, and see who should be stamped good to benefit the boss.
(C) You cannot compare two jobs A and B. Let us say job A is designing an electronic circuit board using microprocessor and Job B is doing a graphic art work for the marketing brochure. Both jobs are in the same company. How can you say A is better than B and pay higher salary for A?
You would probably say A is hard work; it took long time to understand it. That is not correct, both persons did bachelor degrees, and both took same number of years. In fact I would say graphic art is a more creative work. It is hard for brain to produce new ideas every now and then. Engineering is a cook book approach – follow the steps listed in the books, use the tools provided, you get the result.
(D) I would like you to – please check my post on reincarnation dated July 07, 2011, 2:32 pm. Watch the videos there also. This reincarnation law says that we were all here in this world for many many life times in the past. Our all past life experiences and knowledge bases are with us. You cannot evaluate me based on just what I am doing now in this life. It will be a very narrow minded approach to life. We must take the global space time view to all problems to really understand what is going on in our planet.
Thus we can see that there is no theoretical foundation for comparing merits and jobs. It will be an insult to humanity and disservice to god to compare. We all agreed that the money less economy is a profound solution for humanity. This solution is so great that it automatically eliminates comparison of persons and their works.
Subhendu:
“In nature we do not say apple is good and orange is bad. We do not even think along that line. We never thought that we have to compare apples and oranges”
In some sort of mystical context, I suppose you could make this argument, but from the fanciest first world supermarket to the most primitive third world vegetable cart, people do in fact make billions of these sorts of judgements every day. (p.s. I know this was a metaphor)
nick9tap:
“If we start evaluating work then we inadvertently create class and a class ridden society is what we DONT want. In fact it is the evaluation of work that has helpt determine capitalist society.”
You can’t excise the necessity to evaluate and judge just because it creates difficulties in your moneyless economic models.
Subhendu:
“Most important problem to be solved is not the design. It is in the Big Bang moment. Without any idea on how to achieve that moment money-less economy will not happen.”
If I had to choose a single option from the forest of possibilities, I would vote for the gradual elimination of interest as the most important near term goal. It’s conceptually simple, could be kick started quickly through a simple vote and could be implemented as a series of descending interest caps over an agreed upon timeframe. This one change would have a profound impact on the world.
With that, thanks all for the debate. KT signing off.
Hi KT,
So you have your vote, on the Internet. Then what? How can it be implemented? Do you tell the banks to stop asking for interest on the loans they provide? Even if they agree they will get around it by some means, a service charge for instance. What we need to do is stop using money except for buying land and capital equipment etc. Everything can be created when we have the land and the equipment. all we need add is our labour and our ingenuity.
Cheers,
Bob
***
KT,
Please explain how you normally compare apples and oranges when you go to a supermarket.
Hi Guys,
We seem to be getting nowhere so let me interject. We (few guys here) are not in a position to change the whole economic global structure, so we must work, maybe for the rest of our lives in a money based economy. But by the intelligent use of what resources are available to us, right now, we can start to make a difference.
***
If we combine with others in our local areas (in the Swansea, Wales, UK area in my case) and form businesses and limited liability partnerships and co-ops and such, depending on what is allowed in each particular region, even regular limited companies so long as they have a written agreement to operate democratically and so on with the object of creating jobs (for forty hours per week, variable, depending on circumstances for all members, with all the income from each arm of the business being collected together and distributed as fairly as possible and costs for each person being lowered as much as possible by getting their needs met internally from the company shops that are either free or cheap at the point of delivery. In this way the members get access to land on which some members will grow food to put in the shops to sell to the public but free for members. As this develops and a larger and larger proportion of of the population become members and put their savings into these co-ops, the co-ops get richer and can buy more land and other property for the use and benefit of the members including their housing and work places, we’ll be sidestepping the money system to a large degree and our success will attract ever more of the world population and we’ll reach a point where we can tell our governments what to do in the interest of all the people, including closing down banks that are a pain if they haven’t by then closed through lack of business in a world that no longer needs them.
***
If anyone wants to and is able to join me here in Wales, they are welcome, otherwise, start something in your area with the most successful areas financially helping the struggling areas to get on their feet. This, I feel, is how we will make progress. What do you each think?
Cheers,
Bob
***
Hi Bob,
I hope the article http://www.activistpost.com/2011/07/alternative-markets-barter-systems-and.html ” Alternative Markets, Barter Systems, and Local Co-ops are the Lifeboats That will Save Us ” will provide you further encouragement and support in your endevours.
Regards,
Brian
Thank you very much Brian, much appreciated.
Cheers,
Bob
***
PS. Which Brian are you? I have a friend called Brian and also a brother of the same name.
Hi Bob,
I’m not sure how to answer your question “Which Brian are you?”
I have never met you so I’m not the friend or brother you refer to. However I hope I’m your friend with regards to this blog.
I’m the Brian that made my first contribution to this blog on October 3,2009 at 9.03 am. The webpage “itsjustcommonsense.co.uk” no longer exists. I felt that the name didn’t reflect my views and feelings and reissued this page as ‘ Age Of Cooperation ‘ in November 2010 with more up to date links. Re-reading my initial contribution and the above webpage tells you a lot about who I am.
I retired 18 years ago and this has meant that I can indulge myself in devoting more time to examine my thoughts and ideas. This has brought me to see things considerably differently and view what we’re been told by the media/establishment as propoganda and theater and not what’s really going on. I now watch news on tv to try and establish some undestanding of how the World and life are changing and view such happenings as the “Arab Spring” and the current “Murdoch Hacking Scandal” as positive and to the benefit of humanity and Mother Earth and that the elite/establishment are losing power and control.
I have felt for many years that the current monetary/economic system is going to collapse. By early August the USA has to increase the debt ceiling or it will default. Since the dollar is the default currency troubled times could be with us shortly and a moneyless society could be on its way.
What will the World look like at the end of the year?
I hope this goes some way to answering your question.
Regards,
Brian
Hi Brian,
I’ve read you ‘Age of Cooperation’ about two weeks ago, and I very much appreciate what you’ve expressed, it pleased me no end to find that so many are verging on the same topic – the moneyless society. We are entering into one of the most interesting periods in human history, the change which are forth coming is the reason for our existence.
Most only talks of the ‘physicality’ and voids of talking the ‘spirituality’, both are intrinsically linked in everything that touches our lives. I too are ready and watching the collapsing world which will bring necessary changes which then will benefit all of humanity instead for just the few.
We have always been the creator of our reality, what we have now is the creation from our previous unconscious thoughts, now we are done with that and the will of change from our collective awakened consciousness is enough to kick start this change we are all looking for.
Best,
Danny
Hi Danny,
Thanks. I very much appreciate the support of a kindred spirit.
Thanks,
Brian
I would be happy to do 40 hours per seven days, that’s under 6 hours per day. Even better if I can choose my work. At present my work chooses me as much as I choose it. Earlier I went out in my tipper to get a ton of offcuts of pallet (wood) for the boiler for hot water. They (unusually) had none, so I went a little bit further and got some old railway sleepers and various bits of other wood plus some spanners and sockets and a few coins from Stillman’s old scrap yard. There’s not much there now.
***
Also even better if my 40 hours buys me what £400 would not. But my wants are not great as I do not consume animals (I’m vegan), I do not consume tobacco, or alcohol or chemicals (speed etc) or hash. Not even tea or coffee or cocoa (or chocolate). I consume quite a few bananas (that I get for nothing. I grow some potatoes and tomatoes and other vegetables and some trees and shrubs. And I keep my vehicles on the road (N reg Transit tipper plus 2001 Hyundai Amica) I bought and fitted the log burning boiler system here so we could get off the fossil gas. I intend to generate electricity from wood too and harvest rainwater. I get no pay for any of this work. 40 hours credit would be nice. I’m sure we can find plenty of work for out of work bankers.
Cheers,
Bob
***
I’ll add that I would like the opportunity to do more than 6 hours each day so long as I could have use of the best equipment and a warm, dry environment to work in.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Please study this: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/05/27-5
The reference that Bob sited, on his July 10, 2011 at 5:40 am post, is written by a professor of political economy at the university of Maryland in USA.
In his article the author realized “It is by no means obvious, however, how even a very expansive vision of such trends would lead to “systemic” or “transformative” change”.
I agree with his conclusion. However the author failed to identify the root cause of the problem money is free for the central bank but it is not free for anyone else.
I think we should do something to spread this idea. Our political leaders, most educated people, even most economist do not know the facts. Interestingly, this is well known on the internet.
Many of us suggested starting small.
Tommy on July 03, 2011, 4:48 pm members eat free at local bakery
Chris on July 05, 2011, 8:55 pm pick a few major issues, and gives a list
Bob on July 08, 2011, 5:01 am to work in local areas
KT on July 09, 2011, 7:42 pm forest of possibilities
I think we should follow these thoughts. If nothing else happens, it will spread the message of money less economy (MLE) around the globe. Then Bob will be happy to find that his site has contributed.
I expanded the bakery example, on July 04, 2011 at 1:19 pm, and shown that it will lead to interfacing with big corporations. We may not be able to get free oil for our cars from big corporations. Bob hinted another issue – the banks will not waive our mortgages. Thus it seems we cannot start working free at small scale. However, you should help to solve the problems that I encountered.
Working big may also be possible. Campaigning in Greece for MLE, as suggested by Tommy on July 03, 2011, 4:48 pm, is a very good idea. How do we proceed in this case? Do we have a web based chapter in Greece in Greek language? Portugal, Ireland, Iceland, Libya are some other feasible countries.
Germany has pretty good green technology. We can start in a small village there. We will not face oil problem. But home mortgage problem will still be there. We need a MLE site in German language.
Can anyone create a multi-layer advertising scheme for MLE? That is, within a month at least one million people, all over the world, will know what a MLE is. Maybe twitter or face-book approach will work better.
We should also do something to promote the 2012 MLE strike on the Olympic day. Any ideas?
The following are two intermediate steps instead of directly tackling MLE:
(A) Eliminate the government debt ceiling. Or in other words make it infinity.
(B) Introduce secret ballot for elected representatives in nation’s capitals.
I will appreciate your thoughts. I placed too many things probably.
If you want free electricity, that is to say free of bills from the electricity company though there will be a capital cost to buy the equipment then gasification of wood is a good way to go. See: http://s180.photobucket.com/albums/x229/Dutch-John/DJ-3%20woodpowered%20power%20generator/
I’m planning to build one of these some time. I now have the equipment and materials. But not enough time right now.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Hello KT,
I am still waiting for your answer to my question.
In your post on July 9, 2011 at 7:42 pm, you mentioned -
“”¦ but from the fanciest first world supermarket to the most primitive third world vegetable cart, people do in fact make billions of these sorts of judgements every day”¦. “
My question for you on July 10, 2011 at 1:28 was -
“Please explain how you normally compare apples and oranges when you go to a supermarket”.
Many people in USA quite often mention “God is in the details” and “Devil is in the details”. I am sure there are similar statements in UK also.
I interpret these statements as
a detailed analysis of everything will reveal either truth (God) or error (Devil).
So your answer will help me to refine my ideas on money less economy (MLE).
Any negative aspect of MLE can be corrected with proper definitions and detailed analysis.
Subhendu: “Please explain how you normally compare apples and oranges when you go to a supermarket”
Normally the apples/oranges metaphor is used to imply the impossibility of comparing two dissimilar things. What I was arguing is that apple/orange, engineer/artist comparisons are actually not that difficult so long as there is some agreed upon context for the comparison.
For example if we choose general health as the comparison context, oranges are better than apples. They contain more essential vitamins and minerals and in higher concentrations than apples. I believe we can do basically the same thing when evaluating the “worth” of an individual’s contributions in various economic models and that these evaluations should play some role in rewarding extraordinary individual efforts.
Subhendu: “I interpret these statements as a detailed analysis of everything will reveal either truth (God) or error (Devil).”
That’s not quite right. At least in the U.S., it’s used to caution against over enthusiasm. Ideas/policies/etc that seem great at a high level often become intractable when you move from concept to implementation.
For the foreseeable future, I have to move on to more practical matters, but enjoyed the back and forth.
Kt
Respond whenever you have time. I know we are all very busy with our lives. This is a long post, and will require careful attention.
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On the second subject when you said “Ideas/policies/etc that seem great at a high level often become intractable when you move from concept to implementation”, you actually supported my interpretation.
Your sentence means – things appear to work at high level and become intractable (error) at implementation (details) level. Which is same as devil (error) is in the details, i.e. fails to work at the detail level.
You probably know that someone said Apple a day keeps the doctor away.
——————————————————
On the first subject, you have raised scientific issues, like vitamins, minerals etc. I do not believe anything under capitalism. Just like economics does not work, all math and science cannot and do not work also under capitalism. It is the effect of money that has destroyed everything in both math and science.
Just to give an example, consider the well known Newton’s first law, which we have studied in high school physics class. I claim this is wrong. Here is why:
Newton’s First law:
(a) In the absence of any interaction with something else
(b) An object at rest will remain at rest
(c) An object in motion will continue in motion at constant velocity, that is, in constant speed in a straight line
The part (a) is the assumption of the law. Can this assumption be correct? No, it cannot be correct. If the assumption is wrong then obviously the results cannot be correct also. See below, if you want, for more details.
You cannot place a ball above the surface of earth and leave it alone there, because earth is interacting with the ball and it will make it fall. Thus in near earth all objects are interacting with earth’s gravitational force. Therefore the assumption is invalid near earth. Now, is there a place in deep space within our solar system where there is any absence of interaction? The answer is again No. If you put a ball in the deep space, then it will face the gravitational attractions of sun, earth, moon, and all other planets. Their resultant force will not be zero. If you go much deeper, outside our solar system or even outside our galaxy, you will still find that all galaxies will have some gravitational forces acting on the ball. Thus there is no place in the universe where there is no interaction with the ball. Thus the assumption of the Newton’s first law is invalid even in deep space. Therefore the Newton’s first law itself is invalid.
If you leave the ball in the deep space, it will immediately start moving in a curved path. The path will be curved because our universe is constantly moving. Thus the total force on the ball will be changing all the time, both in magnitude and in direction; therefore it cannot go in a straight line. Thus we see that the conclusions of the law cannot be true. The conclusion is false because the assumption is wrong. Therefore the first law is completely invalid in all senses.
Then why are we teaching this subject in schools? The answer is in the money power.
Thanks for your time and response.
Subhendu,
You seem to be confused about the laws of motion. Please ask someone to explain it to you. It is very simple. When forces are balanced then an object will continue as is. How could it be otherwise? Please try to stay focused. Once the ball comes to rest on the ground it is in balance and will stay there. And in space it is only because there is no absolute balance that a ball will not continue for ever in a straight line. It is gravity that will pull it into an arc until the forces are in balance. I have this theory that our universe that we can see is only one of many and that is the reason for the red shift increasing of the outer galaxies because they are being pulled towards the outer galaxies of the adjoining universes and they are getting closer, or should I say they were doing so 13 billion years ago and by now they may well have collided and created new big bangs and new universes at the interstices of the old ones. When we see blue shift outer galaxies that will confirm the theory. Maybe not in our lifetime though.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Hi Bob,
The following statements can be found in the textbook [Ferraro, 2007, p. 8] about the Newton’s first law: “We could hardly sustain that this principle [First law] is a strict experimental result. On the one hand it is not evident how to recognize whether a body is free of forces or not. Even if a unique body in the universe were thought, it is undoubted that its movement could not be rectilinear and uniform in every reference system”
Reference – Ferraro, R. (2007), Einstein’s Space-time, Springer.
All subjects are related. That is because they are all controlled by money. It is the same money that is controlling all the people of the world. You cannot analyze economics properly in isolation with politics, science, philosophy, religion etc. They are all linked together. That is why you see so much of multi-disciplinary and inter-disciplinary researches are going on now on the internet.
I have questioned the assumption behind the Newton’s first law. If the assumption is wrong then the law must be wrong. Please help me to find any error in my statements in the previous post [July 15, 2011 at 10:27 pm]. Please analyze it and read it carefully. If you are correct then I must be wrong, and you will be able to detect the errors in my statements.
No one should trust our math and science. They have become a cover to protect the capitalism. I can only trust technology or engineering. Engineering can produce physical product that we can hold, touch, and feel. Math and science do not have that characteristics.
Best regards,
Subhendu
Brian,
I read the article you mentioned on your post on July 12, 2011 at 10:19 am.
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/07/alternative-markets-barter-systems-and.html
The author Eric Blair definitely identified the root cause of the economic problems. He said –
(a) “We deny the Federal Reserve the ability to collect income taxes to pay off the debt they generate out of thin air to enslave the country”.
(b) “I suppose if I was to go to the very bottom of it all and pick out the primary root from which the whole poisonous vine sprang, it would have to be the establishment of the private Federal Reserve Bank in 1913″.
However he is very optimistic when he said:
“The way any transition would naturally progress would probably be through the implementation of numerous decentralized markets which would then take on gold, silver, and maybe copper as a common currency mechanism (being that precious metals are the only practical replacements at this time)”.
My feeling is that history does not show that the above will be true. I have mentioned on my post dated July 1, 2011 at 10:08 am – Only bigger power, like a second Hitler or God, can save us from such large and pervasive money power of the central bank.
Unfortunately the author, Eric Blair, did not mention about the money less economy, which is so well known on the internet. That was a surprise for me.
He also did not say how we can pay our mortgages when we are unemployed. He essentially suggested Buddha Gandhi type austerity approach. That will not work for our modern day mortgage problems. We have to become homeless to survive.
Regards,
Subhendu
Subhendu,
We need to combine to survive.
the first thing that need be understood is that the oligarchy financial system is nothing but fraud in action. if you want to catch a glimps of it in action read robert ringers books, he will give some good insight into that world. Further, they as a group are not that intelligent. If you spend sufficient time to find out their errors you can beat them at their game. a recent tv expose revealed some groups of attorneys picked up on errors in mortgages in the nort east us and blocked forclosures, attorneys did not uncover those frauds. they made the mistakes, lay people uncovered those mistakes and forced action in their courts. those attorneys came in after the action and saw the process and copied to made money off the research. Shouldnt be difficult to pick up even a second defective mortgage drag them through their courts and check on whether you can beget a cheap house. It does take considerable research though. The credit card fiasco was done also by lay people assaulting the criminal actions of the credit card companies. I am aware of some who soaked those card issues of more than 60,000. but they didnt get it without a lot of reasearch and work. The federal reserve has only been a concept about a century. I hasnt been the nuisance in people lives but the last 20 or 30 years at the most. We can undo it working people just have to cease supporting it. That is not difficult to do. They are limping along at the present, just need to help them over the cliff.
Chris,
You are right when you said “the oligarchy financial system is nothing but fraud in action”. Unfortunately most people do not understand it and therefore support the oligarchy. All these people who support capitalism are therefore part of the money power; and they include millions of engineers, scientist, philosophers, and ordinary “lay” people.
It is fraud simply because the money is free for the Fed or the central bank, but it is not free for the rest of us.
The main purpose of money is to create and then transfer the wealth from the poor to the rich by profiting, interest charging, printing money from thin air, and by creating unemployment. All the wealth produced by the bottom fifth of the population is periodically transferred by creating recessions. The law of conservation concept will show that it is true [please see my post on July 3, 2011 at 7:40 pm.].
It can be shown from the publicly available data that the poor is getting poorer and the rich is getting richer in USA.
it s not really true that though the fed prints almost at will it notes and they are accepted, but you or any one else has at any time the right to negotioate a note if you can get another to accept it. we have a doubt of our fellow man and we for the most part don t have faith in others notes because of the failure of the judicaial system. their fiat money system along with insurance and banking in gerneral is used to transfer the wealth of the creators to the oligarchy, those issue are the most important to be addressed in the next number of years regardles of where we may get otherwise
Chris,
You said “though the fed prints almost at will”.
How much money the Fed is printing is never known and will never be known. This is because it is a very secret and private organization, which plays the central role in capitalism and its policy of transferring wealth. It is the only body that can print money and control unemployment.
The Bloomberg news claims [1] in a law suit against the Fed, that the Fed spent $12.8 trillion as bailout money. The GDP during 2008 was $14.2 trillion. Thus we have a very high hidden inflation. If you do not know the amount of money present in the economy then you cannot compute the real inflation. All the inflation data presented by the government are therefore fictitious.
Roger [2] writes “Of all the losses suffered during the current recession [of 2008], one of the most notable (and well deserved) is the loss in reputation suffered by today’s macroeconomics textbooks”.
[1] Pittman, M., & Ivry, B., (2009), Financial Rescue Nears GDP as Pledges Top $12.8 Trillion (Update1), Bloomberg, March 31.
[2] Garrison, R., (2009), Mainstream macro in an Austrian nutshell, Auburn University.
One approach to implement money less economy is to introduce true democracy in nation’s capitals.
By true democracy I mean the following. In Washington DC, for example, which is the capital of USA, whenever legislators (i.e. elected members) will vote for some policies the vote must use secret ballot system. This secret ballot can be physical papers or electronic.
You probably know that the secret ballot is not used now in any of the capitals of the world. This has been done in this way so that money power can know who is not obeying the money power. That is, suppose I paid one million dollar in campaign fund for the election of a senator, then I would like to see that the senator supports my views on some particular policy. If he does not then I will try my best not to elect him next time. Only way to ensure the success of my investment is to know his vote.
Note that the government in USA is very open. Every activity is very well documented using video recording, computer data, emails, physical papers etc. There is hardly any secrecy there. So, for all practical purposes we can know what our elected officials are doing, and what their views are. But unfortunately the voting has been made public.
A true freedom requires secret ballot. No secret ballot, by definition, means no democracy or no freedom.
If we do not have secret ballot, then money power will come as lobbyist and try to twist the arms of the elected officials. The senior members of the house will try to force the junior members to go along their ways; otherwise they will not be offered the memberships of various powerful committees. The president will force them to vote along his ways. Thus public ballot system has distorted the democracy of every country.
When I give my vote during general election time, my vote remains secret. This does not bother money power. That is because both party members are funded by the same money power. It does not matter whom I elect, none of them care for me; they care only for the money power. If my elected representative cannot cast secret ballot, then my vote becomes public also. Thus I cannot have true democracy.
We trust our elected representatives. From their presentations during election campaign I decided who is better suited for the job they are looking for. We hire them for that job, we trust them, and their decisions. There is no need to monitor them during their work activities. Most of us are not even interested to know what they are doing. So, we must device a system where they can work freely. The only way to provide that environment is to give them the power of secret ballot.
A small step to introduce this secret ballot system is to introduce it at state level, like in California in USA. This can be done by placing this item as a proposition during election time. I am sure it will pass. Slowly all states will join.
Once the secret ballot is implemented at the capital, then a proposition can be introduced to eliminate the central bank. I am sure under that environment the legislators will remove the Fed, thus eventually implementing the money less economy.
But since money power is so big and so pervasive among all of us, I have a feeling this California proposition will be killed at some stage.
The following time I learn a weblog, I hope that it doesnt disappoint me as much as this one. I mean, I know it was my option to learn, but I truly thought youd have something attention-grabbing to say. All I hear is a bunch of whining about one thing that you could possibly repair should you werent too busy on the lookout for attention.
For: Many social places “¦.
You said “but I truly thought youd have something attention-grabbing to say.” We have defined very carefully the money-less economy (MLE). It will be helpful if you can point out at least one flaw in it. We will fix it in the next round with inputs from you.
You have said “bunch of whining about one thing.” Yes that is very true though. I am desperately looking for a solution on how to implement MLE. Let me know if you have any ideas. (See FAQ 2 below)
Can we repair as you said “you could possibly repair”? For one individual yes there are solutions in this blog. See Bob’s posts. (See FAQ 3 below)
I will try to guess your reasons for disappointment and add some FAQ, hoping that it will answer your frustration, for now.
I am also available by email: subhendu.das@excite.com
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FAQ 1: Is moneyless economy (MLE) an utopia?
MLE is really meaningful and practical. You will be surprised to know that our present economy is actually a MLE in disguise.
Who prints the money now? It is the central bank (CB) of your country. It is a private bank, and your government does not have any control over it. The CB can print money as much as it wants, whenever it wants, give it to anybody it wants, and nobody can stop it. Thus the money is free for the CB. Therefore the existing economy is really a MLE. Everything else in our present society is artificial and manmade.
See more on this blog.
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FAQ 2: Can we implement a MLE?
No, we cannot. Money power is very strong. All large corporations, all rich people, the central bank, other banks, the government are all supporters of the existing money based economy. Most importantly, 90% of the population believes in and supports the money power. It cannot be removed by any popular movement.
The Nobel Laureate in economics, Milton Friedman, said this about the central bank: “One unsolved economic problem of the day is how to get rid of the Federal Reserve”. Federal Reserve is the CB for USA. Thus we have no solution.
See more on this blog.
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FAQ 3: Can we live like a moneyless person in the present system?
As an individual surely you can. Gandhi and Buddha have taught us how to do that. But that is a very hard life and it is not the right solution for the modern society.
If you have family, kids, house then you should not become homeless and live like them. There is a better solution for the mankind. The MLE is the only way to go.
See more on this blog.
Try this instead: http://www.facebook.com/groups/111548332285267/
Cheers,
Bob
***
Dear Friends,
I have added a list of FAQ on money-less economy at the site:
https://createmoneylesseconomy.wordpress.com/
I did not do a good job there. This is my first effort of this kind.
I do not even know if the site works or not.
Please visit the site and let me know if you want to add any new FAQ.
It summarizes the ideas that I have learnt from your site and your comments.
Best Regards,
Subhendu at:
subhendu.das@excite.com
There are 2 fundamental kinds of economies:
“¢scarcity
“¢abundance.
In a scarcity economy, things needed and desired by people are so scarce that not everyone who wants a particular thing can have it. In an abundance economy, things needed and desired by people are so abundant that everyone who wants a particular thing can have it.
Money, barter, whatever some system of fair exchange is useful in a scarcity economy it provides a (usually) peaceful and (hopefully) orderly way to determine which people get scarce things. In an abundance economy, money is not useful there’s no need to determine who gets a particular thing, when everybody gets it.
Human society has had, probably since its prehistory, and continues to have, predominantly a scarcity economy too many people, not enough things.
Technological progress tends to reduce scarcity. What only a few wealthy people could afford when it was made by hand by a few skilled artisans, can be had by practically everyone when it made by an efficient, automated factory. Jewelry, books, and computers are all examples of this tendency.
Members of a class of people, “the wealthy”, tend to be aware of the importance of scarcity in preserving the comfort and enjoyment of their lives relative to “the poor”. People in this class tend to try to prevent things from becoming too abundant. Due to the influence their wealth give them, they are frequently successful. The restricted production of crops, energy, and consumer electronics are examples of this tendency.
IMHO, an abundance economy in which everyone has what they need and desire is to be preferred to a scarcity economy, in which they do not.
To change our current society from having a scarcity economy to having an abundance economy, however, is not a simple matter of choosing not to have money. In a scarcity economy, money is needed. Eliminating it by law, etc. won’t work out of practical need, people will seek to and succeed in finding replacements for any kind of money that is banned. The failure of pure socialist governments in many nations is an example of this.
To change from a scarcity to an abundance economy, I believe scarcity itself must be reduced nearly to the point of being eliminated. 2 main obstacles to this exist:
“¢Technical challenges some scarce but useful things (such as solar cells and hydrogen fuel cells) are hard to make in large quantities
“¢The will of the wealthy as described above, wealthy people directly oppose reducing the scarcity of many things.
A couple of common objection to the viability of an abundance economy are:
“¢If people can get everything they need and want without spending money, they will have no incentive to work, nothing will get done or manufactured, and there will be scarcities
“¢If the amount of a thing a person wants is not limited by the amount of money they have, many people will take extravagant quantities of things (eg: hundreds of cars, thousands of guitars and stereos), and there will be scarcities.
the above was written by CraigD and posted at http://scienceforums.com/topic/3696-moneyless-society-would-it-benefit-society/
My response to the common objection is that we are the creators of our own realities. We are beings of great power – able to manifest all of our needs – according to our thoughts and beliefs. If you want to manifest something wonderful, that is no threat to me or statement of my inferiority. It is nothing more than a statement of what you like enough to manifest.
As to people not wanting to work – I say that I readily work on those projects that intrigue me. But even if I don’t want to work – I am still the creator of my reality. Whether I have food, clothing, and shelter is up to me to manifest for me and my family. the same is true for you.
when we allow others to “think” for us, as our culture today demands, because thoughts are the engines of our reality, we disemppower ourselves. We give them our power and then expect them to take care of us in return – but they do not take care of us. They take care of themselves and demand ever-more of your freedom of thought – forcing you to remain enslaved to their pleasures while keeping you ignorant of that fact.
Very well put, Thank you Gail.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Thank you Gail, you sound if you’re coming from another planet from the way you use your words…..
I very much appreciate your input, I’m totally with you on the belief of our powers and our power of creation, only many are beginning to ‘see’ and to ‘understand’ that all of humanity are souls ‘whom’ have ‘chosen’ to incarnate in duality to ‘learn’ just that, life in total restriction and in total limitation. The goal is to ‘wake’ up under pressure and to realize that we all live under masses of illusion, and the accumulated experiences from many lifetimes in such dense and harsh condition would propel our spirit to another level never achieved before, as I believe that the creator god itself is on a quest of continue process of infinite creation, and that each and every single soul IS that creator god.
We are all ONE and the same and this realization is ‘beginning’ to ‘hit home’ with more and more awaken souls, when the journey is over (life is a game), we will meet and greed each other in the spiritual domain once again like a long lost friend and we’re there to reunite and to exchange our life’s lessens and journeys.
For the non believers, please do not get upset with what I’ve said above, as I’m sure one day you too will come to the same conclusion as me and many millions of other selves picked up on this journey of life that we’re all in.
Our world is definitely changing, and this change is beginning gathering momentum, this will continue until our desires are meet and that is fairness for all of humanity. The energies of the old, which is self serving and selfishness is dying and it is to be replaced with energies of collective unity consciousness, the evidence of the occupying wall street moving is only one of many that has sprung up world all over.
We are all here to witness this historical change taken place before our very eyes, in order to learn more about our truest nature of our spiritual being, we have to ‘jump’ beyond the walls that has deliberately constructed to keep us ‘dumb down’, as we are much much more than just a ‘thinking’ brain sitting inside a skull, run a body and somehow have ‘developed’ consciousness and begin to ‘reason’ for itself. None of our history nor education ever tells us that we are the sum and the part of all that IS, in truth, we are all connected to the source of ONE, and that is the Divine Consciousness or the Universal Consciousness, as our words at present cannot fully about to express what our mindset in 3D could describe until we to shake our believe that we are just a simple minded human being.
I’m not a nutter as some of you may think I am, I’m just like you have travel a long way since my childhood and believe me, I’ve gone through all the same questioning and doubt just like anybody else has, just that I ‘got’ it sooner than most.
As I’ve said all along, everything is interconnected and intrinsically linked, we cannot create the ‘perfect’ society without first waking up to the fact that we are all this same soul, same consciousness but experiencing ‘separation’ of the ‘self’ from an infinite perspective.
Danny,
I realise you mean well but what you say means very little to me. I am pragmatic in my thinking and my actions. However, I wish you the best and am keen to see the outcome of your thinking. Do you have any other presence on the web? Do you interact on any other forums? Do you have a blog or anything?
***
Please read The Evolution of the Idea of God by Grant Allen to understand why I think all notions of God are human constructs. And if there is a God it is not a knowable God.
Cheers,
Bob
***
There is now clear-cut scientific evidence that we can end war today, if we want to. It doesn’t cost a penny and doesn’t use a single weapon. It involves nothing more than group meditation and the group does not have to include the whole, or even a majority of the people. One percent of a body of people can reduce crime and violence by 16% while at the same time improving life quality by the same quantifiable amounts. Government and major universities around the globe have conducted studies verifying this. So why don’t we have peace? Because peace isn’t profitable. Meditation isn’t profitable. War is.
In that same body of knowledge is evidence that we can end most illnesses, which are now thought to be symptoms of chronic stress that we impose upon ourselves when we live by a set of rules (worldview) that is inconsistent with how reality really works. So why is no one talking about this marvelous new body of knowledge that will make us all healthier? Why isn’t the U. S. N. I. H. (National Institute of Health) broadcasting the results of their own studies? Because wellness isn’t profitable. Illness is.
Not yet studied by science, but something that I have proven to myself to complete satisfaction, is that we are as safe as we want to be. Others have tested this and also found it true. When I put myself in a place of peace, no thug or no army of thugs can harm me. Sounds incredible, I know, but I know that peace is a power by and of itself, and that it is a power that is available to each and every one of us, thus to the collective.
Why hasn’t all of this knowledge filtered down to so many? Why aren’t the governments of the world that have studied this talking excitedly about it? First and foremost, they know that if they bring this knowledge to the attention of the people, that equality will be restored a frightening concept to the powerful.
They withhold the information and do not reveal what the evidence is now showing (though politicians use the power of thought to get elected – just as athletes use it to perfect their abilities). At the same time, if peace threatens to overtake us, rather than show this evidence that has been gathered, they will point out all of the people put out of work by the dismantling of the military-industrial complex. They will promote fear that is caused by nothing more than absence of available knowledge.
Right now, the U. S. Dept of Education has as its mission statement that it exists to prepare students for global competition. It does not exist to prepare students for life. It doesn’t exist to foster harmony that comes through proper education. It doesn’t even exist to educate. Competition is a mild form of war that has no place in a Dept. of Education. The U. S. Dept of Ed. is, according to its own mission statement, a corporate subsidy. It trains people so that corporations don’t have to. It is really a Dept. of Indoctrination that is well served by our enforced ignorance. As such, it withholds information that it doesn’t want known (such as the above that is understandable by even a young child), and it promotes teaching of outright lies about American history so that the people cannot see the exact and identifiable point when power stopped flowing from the people to government and it started flowing in reverse with unequal treatment for most. (A coup d’etat in the form of a Supreme Court decision called McCulloch v. Maryland that set us up as a war-based economy because it dealt with the establishment of an unconstitutional national bank that found its greatest profits came from interest-bearing war funding.) The U. S Dept of Ed has effectively turn us into commodities. We have been carefully taught that the irrational is the new logic.
Even the U. S. Dept. of Commerce doesn’t exist to help people like you and me establish small businesses that suit our talents and our interests something that requires knowledge, not money. According to its mission statement, it too exists to promote global competition.
Why do our government bodies focus so strenuously on competition? Why does government enjoy pitting us against one another? Why the focus on that which is not peace or prosperity?
Because it diminishes us in our own eyes. Because ignornace keeps us in fear. A people who are afraid are powerless. Fear is the antithesis of power.
This knowledge of the power of thought is the same knowledge that a man allegedly named Jesus talked about, two thousand years before quantum mechanics and the discovery of the unified field of consciousness confirmed his teachings. But the priestcraft that is an ally of the kingcraft works very hard at preventing this knowledge from being understood in its proper anti-religious context. Churches gain a distinct advantage when they promote fear, as all of the churches of the Abrahamic Tradition do.
We who have discovered the illusion of the perception of disconnectedness can begin the transition into a moneyless society as soon as we find onoe another and then reach enough people and show them how they are “functionally” uneducated while showing them the rewards of properly educating themselves in areas where knowledge has been withheld or where they have been fed lies.
Knowledge is also power. It is a subset of the power of peace. Peace is not what we have learned to call peace. In George Orwell’s “1984″, the people chanted “War is Peace, Ignorance is Strength, Slavery is Freedom”. A vast majority of those alive today believe this as well as evidenced by their words and actions. For as long as most do not recognize this obvious truth, money will reign supreme. Money serves the lie.
Those who see beyond the illusion of disconnectedness need to find a way to come together with a purpose in mind. Thanks to the Internet, this is now possible for the first time in human history.
And for those who think that I tread too closely to religion, I assure you that I do not speak of religion. I speak of the power of the individual, amplified by our power as one being through the unified field of consciousness that has been scientifically proven to exist.
Please tell us more Gail,
Please get right down to the nitty gritty.
Cheers,
Bob
***
there may be truth to what you say but there is a sequence of events which would have to be followed if it were to ever happen. the top 10% that control everything are not going to just admith they are evil and wish to stop their evil, the bottom f20% are so drug infected, ignorant and incapable they will not join in the effort, the people in the middle are extremely busy fighting the two ends and the few that understand the problem are assaulted by big governemnt to prevent the ground swell. All socitial problems can be traced backk primarily to banking, finance, insurance, and police judicial system operated by the legal begles, to colaspe their system provides the open door to do as you indicate, to correct the leagal system all you need do is eliminate the monopoly of law practice so that no lawyers can represent people and move to get lawyers off the bence, the finance and insurance can colaspe by people just using cash for purchases, with that the finance people loose their grip on society, may take 5 years but with concerted effort it would be possible
Chris,
I wonder if you have noticed squiggly red lines under some of the words as you write them. This is to indicate a wrong spelling. Please take note of these and make corrections before submitting so that we can all understand your words correctly. Also, you seem rather pessimistic about change to a better way of living. I suggest you start off by telling yourself that the job can be done, all we (I/you) need do is figure out how. Then take the first step then the second and so on. The control that the top 10% have over us is crude and can be thwarted by clever use of the system. I have my way and you could develop your own way. Many are doing it their way. You could join any of those who are already doing it. Just decide which of the groups you want to join. I will be starting a group when I am ready. Not quite ready yet. Where are you by the way?
Cheers,
Bob
***
louisiana, if it were possible to improve this system we are currently oppressed by I would be ready to impliment it immediately. but we are so far from that today, you would have to be able to slip some small bit through now to give the people some idean that it does in fact have a chance. For instance we know police commit more than 50% of the burglaries in the US and I doubt that things are much different in other lands. If we were to say at least find a way to mandate that they cannot be heirs to stolen property by requiring all property no returned to the rightful owner destroyed and that further the all victims be restored to previosu property by the fund that pay policemen. They then have an obligation to do their job investigating crime. I know here they never investigate, only fill out report. If the message were to be blasted throughout the world, then it might be becoming of this and other governments to have to do this. if they ignore the blast, you then know the monumental task that faces you.and if you then cannot find end run around that block, then all is lost
I’d love to, Bob but I’m not sure that anyone will be interested. The way to a moneyless society involves a wide array of interconnected ideas, and on their surface, some seem totally disconnected from the central idea – though they are not. (Much as, on the surface, we seem to be wholly autonomous individuals – though we are not.)
For example: I don’t think that we will be able to begin movement toward a moneyless society until we learn that our definition of time is in error – and if our definition of time is in error, so is our understanding of everything else that is even remotely attached to it.
We are like the people who were alive in 1491 – the year before Colulmbus set out on his famous journey. Then, only a tiny few owned land or were certain of food – at least until the next army came over the hill. No one dared sail too far from shore for fear of falling off the edge or getting lost at sea. This limited opportunities. For the common person, opportunities were extremely scarce. In fact, scarcity was all that existed – which is why the church was able to assume such a central role in society.
But when the new world was discovered, whole new opportunities opened up and propserity exploded exponentially shortly thereafter. So did knowledge. One little changed belief changed the world.
Conventional wisdom has it that we are living in a universe, but science is suggesting that this is not the case. We live in a multiverse – a very different thing. When we realize that reality is not a flat, Euclidean experience, opportunity and prosperity will abound, just as it did when it was discovered that the earth is not flat or domed. there is a whole new world that is being explored by only a few – and money doesn’t work in that world. It has no value there. It’s here – now – all around us, but if you don’t see it, you can’t play in it.
In this multiverse, time isn’t a single event that marches ever-forward. Time itself is multidimensional. Things have been proven to be in two places at the same time. Things exist in the present and they also already exist in many probable futures. Things can have multiple pasts. Particles don’t exist as particles until they are observed. This is all very logical to me, but it is so contrary to conventional wisdom that people tend to see it in an arena of complexity rather than simplicity. that’s because they have learned to call lirrational thought patterns “logic”.
Then again, perhaps I shouldn’t begin with how we misunderstand time, thus limit our own powers. Should I begin with a course in the real American history – complete with the links to proof of my claims (only now available because of the Internet)? Should I offer a lecture on Constituional Law? How about the basics of quantum mechanics? How about the theory (that I belive I have proven) that the first chapter of Genesis in the Bible is really the schematic for the Great Pyramid of Giza, and a geometric rendering of the multiverse and an explanation of its workings spoken in the language of geometry? The world view that supports a moneyless society is supported in large part by hard, scientific evidence – along with some amazing coincidences that need further exploration – but where to begin?
I doubt that this forum is the best for this idea. I was thinking of opening up a web site so that I could get it all out, but until I found this site yesterday (because of a book I heard about at an “Occupy” meeting), I thought that I was the only person in the world working out the details of how to put together a moneyless society. (I do love solving problems and learning is my life’s work)
I think that I have put the details together, but have not found anyone willing to take the time to read about science or time or history. The idea needs articulation and peer review, but I have not paid anyone to certify my knowledge in the many areas that I have great education in, so I have no credentials. (Education is free for those who want it, but universities operate in a money-based environment and those who promote self-education are a threat to their very [financial] existence.)
Just don’t know what to do with all of the knowledge that I have amassed and connected. Any ideas on how to get it out there and market it as an idea – exposing it to criticism and support as well?
Thanks Gail,
As to how to reach the people with ideas in the world as it is (in order to change it). Not easy, but if you play the system and start small and grow exponentially then there is a chance of getting to all the people, eventually. By the way, by multiverse, do you mean universes beyond our own (which is what I think) or hidden universes in different dimensions (which I cannot accept without evidence)
Cheers,
Bob
***
Quickest way to visualize a multiverse – using actual science.
Take a photon and split it in half. This makes two smaller photons. But now you have more than two photons. You really have three photons. The first photon that was split in half still exists. From its perspective, it exists in two different places atthe same time.
How do we know that? Recently proven by someone in Switzerland (though I don’t think at CERN, when you split a photon and send the two parts down optic cables in oppostie directions until they are miles apart, you can adjust the spin of one of the mini photons and the other will instantaneously change its spin. How did the information get from one photon to the other in zero time? It got there because the “event” was also occuring in another (unseen) dimension.
Look at it another way. Split a photon, sending each into separate boxes where their trajectories are manipulated through the use of mirrors that allow them to reunite. The reunited photon has experienced two separate pasts. You, as an “outside” observer, are able to see this, though if the photons are self-aware, we have no idea of how they perceive their realities.
this is all consistent with thermodynamics.
Look at Schroedinger’s equation for mathematical proof of invisible dimensions (more easily understood through his thought experiment called The Schroedinger’s Cat experiment). Put a cat in a box with a divice that is guaranteed to kill the cat at some UNKNOWN point in the next 60 minutes. During that 60 minutes, the cat is both alive and dead at the same time for the entirety of the 60 mins. You can open the box at any time during the 60 minutes, and the possibility of the cat’s being either alive or dead remains a 50/50 chance for every portion of that 60 minute segment. When you open the box, you are in whatever reality that exists for you when the box is opened, but another reality (dimension) also exists – as the unseen. The universe splits in two and both realities continue on their merry way – neither being physically visible to the other.
Consider also the twin slit experiment. Shoot a beam of light through a narrow slit. Look behind the slit and you will see a band of light aprroximatiing the size and shape of the slit. Now place a second slit beside the first and turn the light back on. You will see a whole array of bands of light. These bands are called wave patterns. Now – place a device behind the slits to measure which slit the light came through – and the bands disappear. How did the photons know that they were going to be observed?
This is all evidence of extra dimensions
There is more. This is just the starter. Plenty of evidence for those who are willing to look for it. Time is not at all what we think it is and there certainly are unseen dimensions at play in our realities. The finest minds in the world today agree on that. No hokus-pokus required.
I understand everything you said here Gail, I think you’re the person to help Bob to open up to the understanding that we are just a human being with limited perception. It is because you have the required knowledge to explain the esoteric knowledge in scientific terms, which is not difficult for people whom are ruled by their hearts, but it is hart for those who ruled by their minds.
What we are about to witness is the change of consicousness with vast majority of humanity, as our Morphic field is growing exponentially toward the unity consciousness, fact that few yet to realize that the earth’s frequency have changed since the early 80′s, from 7.8 hertz to the present 14 hertz, this is known as Schumann Resonance.
What this means is we are definitely moving away from the older dark and negative energy, unforturnately most of the information are outside the ‘normal’ channels and are outside of the ‘wall’ deliberately constructed to cover and to conceal truth from the well indoctrinated minds. But since the energies and vibrations are now running high, more and more people are waking up from their sleeps, this includes the minions that once works for the dark cabals are also coming into the light. Disclosure will bring truth and knowledge to the masses, this growth is now affected millions and is evident by the avalanche of the OWS (occupying wall street movement). People are now aware that the Federal Reserve is a private enterprise, so it is a matter of time before this fraudulent organization will be ceased by demand, this will come from the outcry of the public and the congress will have to yield to the pressure and to act accordingly.
The writing is on the wall, the light will defeat darkness, the whole exercise of life in duality is so that we will grow in our spiritual resolve. On top of this is that we have been helped by our space brethren from outer space, there is going to some shock to people whom has little awareness that we have been observed, manipulated by the dark alien forces and until recently we are also getting a lot of help by benevolent humans from other galaxies and worlds. One may wonder why would ‘they’ be interested in our affairs, it is because when we only to think and to reason with our 3D mindset, we could never fathom out their ‘intention’, or at least not until we move up in our spirituality and to find that all life in this universe are all come from the ‘same’ source, all things are interconnected, and when we rise high enough to understand this, then all we have is love and respect for all life forms.
Where does this heading towards? I believe the present world economy is to be replaced by another ‘temporary’ monetary system which will be backed by ‘gold’ and other metals of value, and until when we are able to setup abundance program with advance technology (provide by both our hidden technology and by our more advance space brethren) we would then do away with money altogether. We don’t have to wait too long for all this to happen, we will see the manifestation to begin within the next few weeks or months.
If you are to start a website or a blog, I’ll be the first to subscribe, do let me know when you’re ready.
Danny Chau,
You have said it right “People are now aware that the Federal Reserve (the Fed) is a private enterprise”. But that is not enough. People also have to know how the Fed is doing it. In addition, we have to know that money is free for the Fed.
The Fed is the central bank of USA. Here is one method that the Fed is using. US President Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809) said the following: “The Central Bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the principles and form of our Constitution…if the American people allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power of money should be taken from the banks and restored to congress and the people whom it belongs.” However, I will not accept his solution. I will push for money less economy (MLE).
You also point out that “I believe the present world economy is to be replaced by another ‘temporary’ monetary system which will be backed by ‘gold’ and other metals of value”. I would not recommend that. We have evolved into a better position towards the MLE. If we understand how money works now, we will see then that the MLE concept is actually embedded in capitalism.
Our paychecks are deposited electronically in the bank. We buy things using our credit cards. We pay our credit card bills electronically on the internet. Very soon we will not be involved in transactions. Money may be automatically deducted from bank accounts and given to credit card accounts. Therefore we do not need to see any currency notes now. We may as well start thinking there is no money involved in the above process. For, we really do not know what we have in those computer databases. It is now just a simple matter of changing those computer numbers to 40 hours. The 40-hours come from the number of work hours per week. 40 is the standard number in USA for a full time employee. This switch over can automatically give us MLE.
You have raised the point of managing resources. You said “until when we are able to setup abundance program with advance technology”. On the internet this system has been called the resource based economy (RBE). The RBE also includes MLE. But I do not think that the management of resources will be necessary.
In MLE many presently scarce resources will become abundant. For example, people now want to live in a big house. That is because, the house gives a status symbol in the society; it is also an investment. The price of a house increases and we can then sell the house to make money. But in MLE the houses will be free. Eventually no one will like to live in a big house. For, status will not be attached to a big house any more. People will become sensitive to environment and would minimize waste. Thus the resources of house building materials will become abundant. The same thing will be true for many products that we use now. Our mind set will completely change under MLE. I do not think we have to worry about resource management.
For more information please examine the FAQ at – https://createmoneylesseconomy.wordpress.com/
Scarcity has been introduced artificially by capitalism to make money. The RBE may be a way to distract us from our goal of moving towards MLE. These days in USA we do not say used car, we say pre-owned car. RBE may also be such a term for MLE. People are afraid of using the terminology MLE.
If we bring all 7 billion people and make them stand side by side, then they will probably not fill-up the Texas state of USA. The world is much bigger for 7 billion. God has given this world free to us. No one should have any rights to take things away from us and make it scarce. God will eventually bring someone to save us and restore the truth and respect. It will be a violent one as your book said.
Hi Subhendu Das,
I do think that we are on the same page, again it is the use of ‘words’ that got most of us ‘tangled’ up on this forum. When the present monetary system collapses (soon I hope), then for a brief period to be replaced by a monetary system which is to be based on ‘precious metals’ until the MLE is setup, this is only a suggestion and I’m all for the better if we could jump from our present system directly to a MLE.
I have book marked the link you send me and will get back to you once I have time to read through it.
Best of wishes to you my friend.
Danny
Thank you for your comments Danny, but I hope that you do not misunderstand me. I am not ruled by my heart or by my emotions if that’s what you mean. I am a fierce defender of logic and I require it of myself and those who wish to change my opinions (beliefs). I do not see scientific information as esoteric in any way. In fact, the use of the word esoteric is rather frightening for many to hear. For me, it’s frustrating to hear. It’s very hard to reach someone who believes that knowledge is esoteric. This means that there is a problem. Communication is nearly impossible.
For an atheist and a theist to communicate, (and I am neither) there has to be a common language, and perhaps I can help bridge the gap between you and Bob, but it will not help to insult Bob by saying that he is not open to understanding when you have not made the effort to speak in a language that Bob can understand. That’s not fair to Bob, who is, after all, only asking for evidence of what you assert. Supporting claims with evidence is the way to communicate ideas effectively.
Think of it this way. Let’s say that I am so allergic to chocolate that I have no memories of ever having tasted it. You, on the other hand love it. Describe it to me. What does chocolate taste like?
You cannot communicate the taste of chocolate from your dimension of into mine, unless there is something else I have tasted that approximates it closely enough (and I don’t think that there is). You can try. You can say that it reminds you of a childhood memory when “¦, or you can say that it is as satisfying of sex (though it is not). You can say that it is creamy when it is in a candy bar, and I will think that a stick of butter is creamy, but then you have to say that the two don’t taste the same. You cannot force understanding into my mind. It defies the laws of physics to suggest it. We live in different dimensions.
Ultimately, all of this means that we can only talk to ourselves. We ALWAYS talk TO ourselves when we talk AT others. Logic dictates that nothing else is possible. The laws of physics demand it. But we can communicate when two people have the same basis of understanding which is why science and math serve us so well. There is no mushiness in math. (Math always speaks truth it can speak of error, but it does so truthfully.)
You believe in some things for which you do not have evidence. If you want your worldview to be accepted, it is time for YOU to learn what you have to learn to be able to communicate your worldview in such a way that the Atheists of the world will understand. We need one another theists, atheists, and others if we are to walk through the veil together and achieve the moneyless society. The only way to reach Bob is with evidence and that may not even be enough. I do not know yet.
How much evidence does Bob want before he is satisfied? (Bob, how do you like being talked about in the 3rd person? Hope I’m not offending. It is not my intent to offend. If I do, please let me know and I will immediately apologize.) If he wants complete, 100% evidence, then he already knows that he will never see it, and you can’t make him see it, because he will be an existentialist believing that everything including proof – is happening in his own mind, thus denying you and me our own autonomous existences and discrediting anything that he sees or hears. If he, like me, wants a substantial burden of proof met, such as the proof that supports the “theory” of evolution, then Bob and I will have no problem understanding what you say if you give us the information in that context.
For now you speak of light defeating darkness in a great battle. I do not see such a battle. I do know that there are an infinite number of frequencies, but I do not see frequencies as either light or dark. I do not believe in evil. Good can exist very well without it and I can offer you a different explanation that makes far more sense than evil or darkness. I can offer a logical argument and a cohesive worldview that does not depend on any external god to fill in the gaps in my understanding. I think you would find it most helpful (and beneficial to the whole of your life) if you were to find a way to articulate your worldview in scientific terms. Then you could be the lightworker that I think you desire to be but you could be an effective one.
Thanks for the suggestion about a blog. I think that I will set up a website that lays out the plan that can take those who dare enter therein, into a moneyless society. I’ll let you know when it’s set and will happily chat with you there on a whole host of New Age ideas that can easily be translated into science-speak so that you can communicate more effectively with a wider audience.
Again, I appreciate your feedback.
Gail,
I don’t mind at all you speaking of me in the third person. I think what you are saying to Danny needs saying to him in the way you are saying it. I hope he understands. I am all for science, and I wish we could have full proof of a thing, but am happy with reasonable evidence. I’m always ready to go with new evidence. I have my own theory about certain things but little in the way of evidence. For instance, on the origin of the universe in all its glorious three dimensions plus time. Plus similar universes outside our own. See:
Robert Howes posted the following on July 16, 2011 at 5:11 am.
Cheers,
Bob
***
To Bob and to Gail,
First of all, I would like to say that I have zero intention to insult anyone here, let alone Bob who I’ve always has shown appreciation and respect for his ideals and his being. Like you have expressed for me Gail, that you are the ‘better’ person to communicate with Bob than me, because of your analytical mind.
I ‘see’ that we are all living in our separate parallel universes and we constantly having to communicate with other selves via words we use and not all conform to the same standard use of language, on that part, I know I still has a lot to improve in order for me to express to ‘different’ mindsets. I know some people don’t mince with words while others are able to get the message across with all kinds of words and gestures, so while we are multidimensional beings but are restraint and restricted by the limitation of the use of our words or mindsets.
I am trying to provide the ‘evidence’ to you Bob, but finding that we are at the age of information, the idea behind my belief system is a amalgamation from the entire knowledge spectrum, which to me holds ‘true’, it is like a challenge to me to find a way to recollect my thoughts and place them in an order that could be logically understood by you and all those whom are interested.
You see Gail, I’m totally agree with what you’ve said so far, and yes we do in truth only talking to ourselves, as all are a projection from within our consciousness, as we only existed in our consciousness. So all that seem external to my mind are but ‘reflections’ from within my mind and my consciousness, to me, the entire universe is never outside of me.
What we consider to be scientific is to people with less understanding of the mechanics of science is to be of magic, but since we are still in the ‘early’ stages of the scientific discovery, what seem magical or esoteric will become science ‘fact’ in the coming future. Again to me, what seems impossible will become possible in ‘time’, as to me, my evidence is that we are in fact LIFE itself, we ARE all that IS.
The denial of our divine nature is the stumbling block to be able to perceive more information or for us to reclaim or to understand who we are, as we have always been told and indoctrinated by our ‘authorities’ that we are not worthy and our religion tries hard to impregnate us that there is a higher force or authority call god, this is all part of the our ‘game play’ to enable us to learn as part of our life’s process.
The funny thing is when it come to our beliefs, to me, I already have my ‘proof’ and this may well a combination from many experiences, so how can one make ‘proof’ to another person whom lives in an entirely different ‘universe’? So I come to accepting and trusting others beliefs until ‘they’ wanted to ‘change’ that very reality, as I too have been through such a process.
For instance, I was a complete ‘perfect citizen’ prior to the 9/11 attacks, I was in another world before that happened, thinking that our government are all acting benevolently on our behave, now looking back I was just plain naive and I still ‘see’ that many are still in that mindset. I have since gone through masses of awakening and now never says never and I’m totally open to any kind of possibilities and probabilities.
If I say to you both that I have ‘witnessed’ a huge UFO that appeared above the car my father was driving when I was 19, it was around 7 :30pm in the evening and we were heading from Sunderland (UK) towards Middlesborough to make our deliveries (my father used to have a grocery store in Sunderland). We drove through a stretch of a dual carriageway without lights and all of a sudden the bonnet on our car light up as daylight with multiple colours, so naturally I looked up and right above the car (approx. less than 200 feet) was a huge metallic disk shape craft with lights around it’s rim. I look at my father while he too slow down the car and looked up, then I ask him what he saw and he simply reply it’s a flying saucer and as I watched for a while longer, the disk then shot up a few hundred feet before taken another maneuver and shot itself out of sight.
I have since ask the question of what has this to do with our life here on earth, or what has this to do with my spiritual development, as I have been asking the question of my origin since I was 7, and nothing around me then to tell me anything about where we came from or what happens to us when we die. This has been the quest of my life, and during this I also been well indoctrinated and conform by our ‘society’ and become a ‘person’ as prescribed by the ‘authorities’.
By the journey to awakening really happened after the 9/11 events, since then I have opened my mind and my ‘eyes’, and learned that one has to first ‘believe’ before they can ‘see’, it is very much different to the seeing is then to believe.
Since life IS a journey, it’s nice to be able to share our thoughts as this is what life is about. I also come to understand that most people are still very much in a confinement by the education, culture, religion and the society they’re in, we were and was (I believe) was the few who believes that there are ‘better’ alternatives then the one we’re in. From all the still on going OWS movements, more are coming to the realisation that we are indeed running a crazy system that only benefit the few, so what we’re witnessing is the ‘change’ that the Mayan’s and plenty other famous Prophets has predicted the ‘end time’ scenario.
Here is a link to channeled message (fact that we are indeed multidimensional beings, and that some are more sensitive and are able to access other dimensions and are able to communicate with beings from these dimensions), from these messages over time, we get to ‘see’ the greater picture as our world develops.
http://www.galacticchannelings.com/english/index.html
There are hundreds of websites dedicated to information which the mainstream media would not (at least for now, they too are in the process of change), one of the more notable is the call for disclosure of UFO from the governments, here is a link to one of the most active:
http://www.disclosureproject.org/
They have plenty of videos on Youtube with witness testimonies on line.
Once we have time travel technology disclosed, there will not be any need to live in a city, as traveling will be at an instant, when the disclosure of zero point energy, cold fusion etc. are released, then we wouldn’t need to use fossil fuel, nuclear fuel or coal. When we concentrate on robotic, then lots of menial boring but necessary jobs will be replaced by advance robots. I do believe we have all the necessary technology and know how to feed and to house all on earth, what is lacking is imagination and will (at least for now). No more wars, no more bankers, no more corruption because of money, it is all possible to me.
Our job is first to ‘be’ that we wish to ‘be’, and that is first to have the total believe that we ‘can’ make this and to manifest this to become the reality for all of humanity. That is is completely feasible to achieve, as our thoughts and our imagination is the power house of creation, don’t underestimate that we are going through our spiritual upgrading as we speak, we are moving from the 3rd dimension to the 5th (while 4th is the bridge). We are in the mist of change, a change that we all have been waiting for, hence I have complete ‘faith’ that our ‘same’ ONE higher self has install for us all. Be sure that everything happened only happened because it is for our grow in consciousness and in our spirituality and it’s not about how much we make or how much we hoard.
I maybe getting a little bit long winded here, but without expressing our minds in this fashion, we cannot get our points across (again, only for now, as we are also upgrading our consciousness and we will be able to function our telepathy once the upgrade is finished and we will be able to communicate with our minds).
It’s ok if you don’t accept what I’ve said above, or to think that I’m mental or crazy in the way I think, that OK too, but just like each one of us do think that we are saint and other’s are not. Truly, I so appreciate that everyone is on the journey of their life, and each is a deity in their own right, no one is higher or lower, as each are as unique as one another and yet we are all one and the same.
with love, light and respect.
Danny
Hi Bob,
I may not be the person to give you the proof you require, but here I found a video which I hope can give you the explanation you’re looking for:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y5bXdx5UrE
Enjoy!
Best,
Danny
Bob, What are you trying to accomplish by insulting and demeaning Danny and Me?
You ask Dan for evidence and when he/she is unable to provide it,you discount what is said even though science is far more consistent with Danny’s worldview than your own. Life is indeed a multidimensional experience – and the universe is not a Euclidean, 3D universe as you take comfort in believing. Science shows that it is not unfair or unreasonable to say that Danny is the god of Danny’s reality and I am the god of mine and you are the god of yours and we (combined) are also a god. That is what the evidence implies.
You ask me for evidence, and when I offer you that evidence, you can’t be bother challenging your own erroneous beliefs about what science says that life looks like. You prefer to hide in your own ignorance rather than resolve a problem that requires us to see the world as it exists as oppose to how we want it to exist.
Society cannot go in a different direction using the knowingly flawed theories that got us into the predicament that we are now in. Willful ignorance is a HUGE part of the reason why we are in the plight that we facen as a species.
If you are not interested in fixing the problem – but are only interested in undermining others – why are you here? Do you like to troll?
Given that you are uninterested in facts because you have already made up your mind, your treatment of Danny and me is unreasonable. If you are unwilling to look at the evidence, you should stop asking for it.
As a matter of fact, please show me evidence that your 3D worldview is correct – because I am unaware of any.
Danny,
I am sorry that I offended you.
I wholeheartedly agree with the bulk of your perception of reality. It is a view supported by the science that you need to know about in order to use your divine nature more effectively – and for you to spread the word about how powerful human beings are if we choose to acknowledge (and use) that power that is of our divine nature. It will be easy to change the entire system as soon as people embrace reality. I look forward to sharing what I know with you..
I do not disagree with your belief in aliens. I, myself, have seen too many UFOs that could be nothing but UFOs, and I know too many who have also seen such things.
I disagree with you on the periphery – on matters of lightness and darkness. The disagreement might be semantic. I don’t think so, but I’m not certain. But the differences are few compared to the similarities. I can lead you through thought experiments that demonstrate that evil is a perception based on your beliefs and I can introduce you to a new way of looking at that which you call evil. This knowledge will enhance your power because it removes your sense of vulnerability from your worldview.
I can even show you how to reach through the unified field of consciousness so that you can use your innate psychic abilities. this will make communication easier and show you that your sense of being in the world of duality is really a result of your belief – and that you can erase that perceived prison by simply having a better understanding of how to communicate with your own greater being.
When people recognize that they are all one and of one and as one – they will no longer look outside of themselves for ways to solve personal and social problems. Then – when we correct the inside ( irrational thought patterns that are falsely believed to be logical) we can begin devising rational economic systems. I’m not sure that those on this site are ready to hear that though.
Don’t let anyone – not even me – undermine you. But at the same time, keep an open mind, because I suspect that what i have to share with you will surprise and excite you. I’m going to try the link at the end of your post to see if that will allow me to contact you directly (off-site).
No apology is required Gail, I didn’t notice any offense made, by you or by Bob. I only ‘see’ that we are speaking ‘true’ from our heart, we just simply exchanging our mind and an expression from within our consciousness.
It’s great that we could actually able to ‘share’ our thoughts and views without ‘conflict’, or at least I don’t ‘see’ any conflict in any shape or form, as we are free to express our views. As you said that we are wholly responsible for our ‘thinking’ and our ‘being’, so I choose to ‘be’ calm and at ‘peace’ with myself.
One thing I wanted to clarify is it must be the word that I’ve used so that you have perceived I used to express ‘evil’, in my understanding at present, I have by past the opposite forces such as good and evil. I only ‘see’ duality in terms of consciousness, as in my absolute, there is no right and no wrong, as all experience leads to only one end result, and that is awareness and awakening to the acknowledgement of the divine self.
I also noticed the word you used as “your own greater being”, is a similar to the term “higher self” I normally use when describing my/our higher divinity.
I would love and I’m eager to learn more from you on the ‘unified field of consciousness’, please send further information or links to my email address which is dannychau7@gmail.com.
I would like to think that I’m at total peace (which I am) with myself and my other selves the whole of the time, as I’m only ‘seeing’ reflections from within my very own mind scape and my very unique universe.
with love and light,
Danny
Chris, you said, “For instance we know police commit more than 50% of the burglaries in the US and I doubt that things are much different in other lands. If we were to say at least find a way to mandate …”
There is a direct and provable causation between crime/violence and education. I am not speaking of high school diplomas or college degrees here. I am speaking of education in its truest sense.
We live in a scarcity-based society. That is the cause of crime. We have been indoctrinated into accepting that as a necessary component of how life works – but it’s simply not the truth. Information has been withheld from us to make us more malleable – which serves the powerful very well. You have also been told lies to keep you subservient (through irrational fears). Truth alone will set us free. It is our ignorance that is keeping us in this scarcity-based economy. That’s just fact.
An abundance-based society is based on what we have learned about how life REALLY works. You are a being of great power. Given this, when you know your power, and have grown confidence in it, there is no need for others to do without in order for you to have more. When enough people discover this, we can easily move into a moneyless society. It is a natural evolution. It may not make sense to you now, but that doesn’t make it untrue.
Laws won’t fix the problem. Laws such as those you suggest only exacerbate the problem. The USA has the highest percentage of people in jails of any country in the world, and you want to increase that number when all of the evidence says that the more educated a people, the less aggressive they are?
well that would be true if all were above average intelligence and moral character, that is not the case, cat 4 and cat 5 intelligence is not trainable, and you cannot raise the IQ even 1 point, you are dealt with what you are born with,you can lower it by drug use, and that is being noticed now, estimates are that blacks using crack will drop another 5 IQ points in the US in the next 50 years to become the lowest on the face of the earth. Further, you are not taking into consideration of the socio path, it is not an illness but a conditon, the socio path burglarizes kills and destroys becaue it entertains them, they feel they are doing a public service. that will not change, the only safe bet for the civil is to identify them early on and separate them in some fashion. Further the addictive personality, it is not likely that they would just become non additive. Mental health experts who have studied that maladdy agree that their affliction will always be ther for life. That is a group that in addition to other just need to be in assisted living conditons. My personal perspective is that in the Us 100 million people need to be placed in supervised living conditions, if it were to be done early on as Dr. Hare is roughly suggesting, we could easily cut the imprisonment containment in half. Life would be better for all. I do not believe with trouble peoples lives those troubles will just be eliminated. If so you would need to do an experiment in some institutions, government would certainly award you a study amount in the millions to try and prove it, because if it would do that it would indeed be profound
Gail,
I have reread all that I wrote to you and Danny and cannot fathom what you are talking about. Please specify where I insulted or demeaned you or Danny. I made a constructive criticism to Chris about his awful spelling. So please, if you are going to have a go at me, please specify the exact reason why. By the way, I don’t have to prove the three dimensions to you, you already know about them, but I do not know of any others, apart from time, that is, but you claim that time is other that that which I understand it to be. I am scientific in my outlook and will look at any scientific evidence. I’m not saying I will understand it, especially if it is a mass of mathematical equations, but if it is spelled out in simple terms I will try to grasp it. Your attack on me seems unwarranted and makes me wonder about your stability. Have you read Kelly on personal constructs? You might gain something from it. We all might. I hope you don’t take that as an insult, it is not intended to be such.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Hi Bob,
I’m sure you’ll like this video – is a conference about free energy in Zurich back in 2009.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=178TJujE5oY&feature=player_embedded#!
Best,
Danny
Thanks Danny but I have seen the same info on another video without the German interpretation. This one is too long and I am only interested in the science. I am not interested in any false science. Show me something more solid and I’ll be interested. By the way, since Gail has not responded to my last post, do you understand what she meant?
Cheers,
Bob
***
Can’t understand why she had such a reaction, I didn’t notice any lack of respect in your tone, beats me too?
Have you heard of Benjamin Fulford? Here is one interview regarding the banking system:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R8Yl5LldhY&feature=player_embedded
Best,
Danny
Bob – it wasn’t your tone. What you say is VERBALIZED in a friendly enough way.
It was that you dismiss ideas with the request for evidence, but when evidence is offered, you have no interest because it’s not worth the effort to investigate.
Why then ask for evidence? What’s your motive in asking? Surely your requests are not meant to uplift others or encourage them to articulate their ideas more clearly. It couldn’t be motivated by a desire to find a way to create a moneyless soceity. What’s your motive?
I came to this site hoping to participate in a valuable conversation, but where it’s just a place to post unfounded opinions, I had to find another place that is more interested in informed opinions while it is more respectful of others’ time and knowledge. I’m interested in working with others to find a solution, not to diminish and confound others.
I’m logging off this site. I do appreciate the opportunity to practice articulating my message and I thank you all for allowing me to.
I don’t know if Gail is still here. If so, Hi Gail, Let me say that there is evidence and there is interpretation of evidence. Not the same thing. Also there are post grad students who in chasing funding have to come up with new theories all the time, or else they don’t eat. Most of these theories have to, logically, be false. But they get the funding if the mathematical equations appear to work. Few of us are able to refute them, so the game carries on. I am not into games and I decided to change the world, as I put it when I was 12 in 1960, 51 years ago. It mattered little to me then how many universes there were, and it matters little to me now, it is just idle speculation (on my part). My main concern is to remove the causes of poverty. Money seems to be a major cause of all our problems, if not the only one. Therefore I have developed new systems to replace the money based systems that don’t work for the majority. My systems will work for everyone, not just a few percent of the people. I am not about opinions, I am about actions, as you would know if you had observed me and not just read a few of my comments. You don’t know me but you could if you came here and observed me at work.
Cheers,
Bob
***
By the way, everyone, you can study me at work from the comfort of your own place by following this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WiCopendebate/messages
Cheers,
Bob
***
Gail indeed, does appear to have left.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Hi Bob,
I have forward your last response to Gail and here is her reply to you:
As to Bob’s response, you may tell him:
I know how to end poverty, crime, homelessness, hopelessness, etc. So does the U. S. government. Many governments and major educational facilities around the world have collected the evidence that shows HOW to end our social ills while simultaneously growing social benefits. But the solution is not implemented because not only is it free, but it will end the current economic order of things. But for as long as people are only willing to say – I want to help, but I want to do it my way in spite of the conflicting evidence that is well-established – then “I” can’t be effective in MY mission – that I became aware of in the summer of 1954. (I’m not a grad student. I’m 61 years young.)
It matters very much whether we live in a universe or a multiverse. Knowledge is not unconnected. Ideas do not exist in their own autonomous worlds. What works in a universe does not work in a multiverse. ($$$) It matters very much that WE are not only individuals, but we are part of a living, self-aware greater whole – and we are very powerful beings (gods in our own right) and we are even more powerful at ending social ills when we use the now-proven unified field properly. It matters very much that Americans are GROSSLY undereducated (no matter how many degrees they have) because it matters very much that it is our thoughts and beliefs that imprison us in poverty and violence. Money is not the cause – it’s a symptom.
We can change our habitual thoughts and self-created belief structures THAT ESTABLISHED AND HOLD IN PLACE the social ills that you speak of. That’s a choice and we can choose differently. But if we cannot get THAT message out, you will not be able to reach those you want to reach because they cannot hear you.
People are too afraid to believe you or even understand what you are saying. The priestcraft and the kingcraft have terrorized them into submission. You use the same techniques they do to undermine the value of individuals in their own eyes. For as long as you maintain the established and INCORRECT definition of who and what humans are, you are working against all that you are working for. You are building an illness into your framework – and if it is ever established (doubtful) it will end just as clearly as America is dying because you are missing an important piece of the puzzle. This missing piece makes your structure unstable, and it will have to collapse in on itself because it cannot work forever. Money is a symptom of the problem that created it. It is not the cause of our problems.
A disempowered people cannot empower themselves without the tools that they need to do so. When someone is drowning, that is not the time to try to teach them how to swim or even write them off as irrelevant (your logic about the grad students is not at all logical by the way. Math doesn’t lie).
Fist people need a life raft. Then they need what comes next. I am the life raft. You cannot succeed without those like me … And there is very little time left.
Gail
Hi Gail,
So what do you want of me?
Cheers,
Bob
***
Via Danny, presumably.
I would like Gail to spell out how to end poverty etc. That is what this blog was set up for as I understand it. How about it Gail?
Cheers,
Bob
***
For those who have not read part two, follow this link:
http://anthologyoi.com/blogish/beyond-the-socialist-dream-a-money-less-society-part-ii.html
Cheers,
Bob
***
Each carrot I grow is one less carrot I need obtain from a capitalist for money. Same applies to each bean, each potato and grain of wheat. The same also applies to each house I build or each car I build or rebuild. In fact the same thing applies to everything I make for my own use. And the same applies if I work alone or with others. The big difference is that we do not get division of labour if we each work alone. We need to co-operate in order to provide for all our needs without buying from the capitalists. Is this not so? Are not all the things we consume produced by us, the workers? Do the capitalists produce anything that we consume? The capitalists lend us money or lend our employers money so that they can get a living, a return on investment, without having to produce anything. Yet they consume plenty. They are drones, and we don’t need them. They need us. Without income from us and products from us they will have to join us and become producers too. And why not?
Cheers,
Bob
***
i am able to build a house from scratch, rebuild a car from scratch and nearly every tool etc in between I can weld steel etc etc. etc. but their system is set to destroy every one outside them. I have personally had in excess of 300,000 of theft and vandalism within the last 3 years, they use their street people to steal and destroy property when you are away and there is no way that you can be on top of every thing 24 hours 7 days a week, every law they make is intended to control and destroy every one not enslaved and producing profitably for them. Unless you develop a method to destroy those who commit crimes against humanity, there is no way to implement a better society. the problem is far more monumental than most are dreaming
Chris: You are right when you said – “the problem is far more monumental than most are dreaming”. Yes, money power is much bigger power than the power of imperialism. A third world war will be necessary to get rid of money power. A second Hitler must be born to rescue us.
Right now I only have minutes to spare before I move the firewood I got yesterday from where i tipped it so I can get my tipper out to go and help a hoarder friend move some of his collected items before the housing people come to steal it all from him, and this is what we must do far more of, help each other to alter the odds. I too have had much stolen in the past including just recently, but we must not get paranoid about it we must combine our strengths so that collectively we “can” keep guard on our wealth 24/7/365.
***
I call this a flexi co-op. A co-op that caters to all the needs of its members so they are not alone against the odds. I want others to join me and I have set up the beginnings of it by buying land and houses. I have four houses and three pieces of land. I have industrial land, agricultural land and housing development land. (quarter acre, 6.25 acres and 40 feet by 60 feet respectively.
***
I have plans for a flexi co-op but as yet no people to make it come alive. If others will join me we can become extremely successful and able to take on capitalism exponentially over time until there are more people living outside of capitalism with its wars and stupidity that are living with it. Then we can end it once and for all. Are you all with me? By the way I am based in South Wales UK. robertcircle1@yahoo.co.uk 01792 792 442 What have you got to lose but your paranoia?
robert, that is exctly the opposite thing to do, all people have a right to exist is this world, you and your hoarder firend and as many decent people need to gettogether and not onlyh stop the invasion of rights of people by housing people come over but push to the point that the housing people no longer have jobs and find thier court system and file charges without payment but under authority of the intenational human rights commission. flood your government with paper work to give them something to do. yielding as you did is showing that no progress is made or makable
Hi Chris,
David and I stood up to the housing association people and only allowed them to take bags of crap. They backed down completely and we now have a further two weeks to sort out Dave’s flat. No need for any paperwork at all. We didn’t yield. We stood up to them and they backed down. Dave has now sorted through the stuff on my tipper and we will take the best stuff back to his flat after we tidy it up. It really was bad there but once we clear the clutter the housing people will spend a heap of money on the flat to make it nice. I will make sure of that. Dave, on his own is no match for them, but together we are more than a match.
Cheers,
Bob
***
In his book, “The Best Thing That Money Can’t Buy”, Jacque Fresco, who founded the Venus Project, envisions a global civilization in which science and technology are applied with human and environmental concern to secure, protect, and encourage a more humane world for all people.
I begin my response with a reference to The Venus Project because Bob referenced it in his very first post to me, and I have read Jacque’s book.
It’s an interesting idea though incomplete. If it were complete, I believe that it is largely a workable idea when technology catches up with it. The problem is that the economy is failing NOW before technology has reached the point where it has to go in order for it to work. Mr. Fresco admits that The Venus Project cannot even get off the ground for as long as we live in a money-based society meaning that it has a fatal flaw. Mr. Fresco has not touched on HOW to get us from our current money system to the moneyless society.
I understand why it is incomplete and why the author doesn’t see the flaw. Jacque Fresco is an atheist.
Don’t stop reading here. I do not say that as an insult and I am not an evangelist. I am neither an atheist nor a theist. You can call yourself an atheist or not, but just as the religious zealots are blind and closed off to the real workings of life, so are most atheists. What I have to say will sound rather like a god-concept but keep in mind that it rejects the notion that any god has any power over you, your choices, or your consequences. It rejects heaven and hell. It rejects high priests and others who scare you into submission so that you will hold yourself in an inferior position of subservience. It rejects the idea that humans are mere mortals. We are powerful beings, and in that respect, we are all innately equal.
In his book, Jacque speaks of the people’s right to develop a religion or philosophy, if that’s what consensus dictates. This shows how little he knows about the value of thoughts and beliefs, for philosophies and religions are nothing more than belief structures. Belief structures form prisons around us, and because we believe in the legitimacy of our beliefs, every action that we take is consistent with them. This is true on the level of both the individual and society as a whole.
Look at the evangelical christian community and compare the behavior of christians with Buddhists, for example. Behaviors are very different. Behaviors are different because shared beliefs are different. Beliefs form the substance of what you perceive when you look out on your reality. Beliefs are thought constructs. This means that thoughts are powerful things.
If you can control a person’s thoughts, you can control his life. Control a person’s thoughts and you can readily create a situation where the controlee WANTS to become a slave, and he will even loudly proclaim that his slavery is “Freedom!”. He will work very hard to protect his slavery from anyone who wants to set him free or who attempts to convince him that he is calling freedom something that freedom is not. I am speaking of our own society here. We do call our slavery freedom and reject (as a society) any notion that threatens our desire to have others think for us thus manipulate us through the use of fear.
A person who is self-aware is less likely to have his or her thoughts manipulated. That person has come from the place where society now rests. That person has let go of the prison bars that he or she was clinging to so desperately (the belief) in order to hold it up, and he/she has no interest in returning to slavery. That person has discovered that humans are beings of great power if they understand how to use thoughts and beliefs to literally create their own realities.
There is a growing number of people around the world who are already creating their own realities. They take thoughts and literally manifest their desires. It’s an easy enough thing to do.
1. choose what you want to have in your reality. Writing it down helps the process.
2. Take 15 20 minutes every day to pretend that you already have what you want. Feel the joy or appreciation that you will feel when what you ask for arrives but be sure that you are always thinking and emoting in the present moment. If you think/emote about something that WILL happen, then you will never arrive at the specific dimension where what you created already exists. (Life is a multiverse. Scientific proof will come later if you desire it)
3. Don’t obsess on what you are doing. That prevents the manifestation. Let go of the thought so that you can allow it to come to you naturally.
4. Expect what you want to arrive. When a thought about what you are waiting for appears, just tell yourself that you are on your way to it and release it.
5. Do not try to manifest a solution to a problem that is currently consuming you. You need to have distance from such a problem so that you can see the beliefs that you hold that caused the problem to appear in the first place. There is a far-easier and much quicker way of resolving current problems. So as you start, choose “things” that you want. I would suggest that anyone working on creating a moneyless society not try to manifest money. Hard to manifest things that you don’t want.
I can’t begin to tell you how many wonderful things and situations I have manifested through the use of this power. I’m not alone. There are MANY of us trying to get others to help themselves to the unlimited abundance that is ours for the taking. Scarcity is a myth. Our scarcity-based society is built around a myth.
A person who understands just how powerful he/she is, will not kill someone for money in order to buy drugs to numb themselves from the pain of living in an insane society (that calls slavery freedom for starters) that requires the individual to believe that they are powerless and vulnerable so that they can be manipulated through fear.
Your individual power includes the power to keep yourself safe. When you understand how to achieve a state of peace, there is no thug or no army of thugs – no matter the weapons at their disposal that can harm you. In fact, when you know how to achieve a state of inner peace, you have the ability to lift the thug out of his insanity if only temporarily which is how you remain safe because you do not have power OVER others (that they have not granted you). You only have power WITHIN your own reality. But there you are oh””so powerful
Social structures with power hierarchies insist that the want of one is less important than the want of the many. In our culture, the one MUST bow to the will of the many or be put away in a prison. But that hierarchical social structure will crumble as soon as the people WITHIN it realize that they are powerful beings equal in every meaningful respect and they have become adept at using their innate power.
Life is not one-dimensional or even three dimensional. I am not an autonomous being, nor are you, nor is the thug. When I am interacting with (relating to) others, we are part of a relationship, and that relationship is as alive as you are. It is an intelligent, sentient being in its own right. It passes information from one to the other from WITHIN itself. This is as true for a society “being” as it is for Bob, Danny, and Gail.
It is ONLY THROUGH that other-(INNER)-dimensional relationship that ideas can possibly be transmitted. Words are not effective communication devices, unless you are speaking in the language of math. Example: Describe the taste of chocolate to me. I’ve never tasted it.
Words cannot communicate effectively because you live in your dimension of reality within which, you are the absolute god capable of creating anything and everything that you want to create using the method just given. I am also the god of my dimension (reality).
When we realize that we are not the limited beings that we have “BELIEVED” that we are, we can come together to bring peace to the whole.
In the 70s, a popular Maharishi suggested that if groups of people were to join together to meditate, that they could effect peace in a region. This theory, however strange it sounded, was actually tested using scientific methods. The initial test took place in Israel / Lebanon during one of its wars.
Data was collected before, during, and after the war. It looked at things like how many munitions were made, how many bombs were dropped, how many war-related deaths occurred, how many new jobs were created, how many new patents and business licenses were issued. It looked at police records and records from fire departments, hospitals, psychiatric facilities, and notices of social activity from newspapers and other such information that would allow a set of data points to be graphed.
Then, about 1,000 people in both Jerusalem and Lebanon would come together twice a day (10AM & 4PM) to mediate. Just meditate. The numbers of people arriving each day varied. Sometimes there were only a few and sometimes there were very many. The graph showed that on those days and periods of days where many gathered, violence on the streets and in the war was drastically reduced while at the same time, things that benefit society were increased by the same percent.
The university that published the study in a peer review journal caused quite a stir. It actually made people angry. In fact, it took two and a half years for the journal to even agree to publish it because it had so many scientists look at it to confirm that precise scientific methods were established. It then prefaced the study with a statement saying that what the study showed was so antithetical (counter-intuitive) to all that we knew about life, it encouraged others to conduct their own studies which immediately began occurring.
One such study took place in Washington DC where mediators were able to reduce crime, violence, traffic accidents, house fires, visits to hospital emergency rooms and psych centers, etc by more than 24%. That’s when the government got involved, conducting its own study, and learned that we can indeed end war and ALL violence and poverty using nothing more than group meditation.
There are now more than 600 published studies confirming this. I read recently that the number is over 1,000 now, but as the author didn’t cite a source, I’ll just stick with the more conservative number. Even at 600, there are more studies done confirming this than there are studies done to prove that aspirin will take away headache pain. Not a single study has disputed the original findings.
We know how to end war. Just get people to gather in groups to meditate. We don’t need ALL to meditate, nor do we need MOST to meditate. If only one percent of a city’s population gathers to meditate regularly, negative social factors decrease by 16% while positive social factors increase. Meditation, by the way has incredible personal theraputic properties too many to mention here.
The problem then becomes: What do we do with all of the people when there is no longer a need for the military industrial complex or the health care industry or even Wall Street (that is really part of the military industrial complex)? In fact, we are ALL part of the military industrial complex because we have a war-based economy. Even the waitress in the corner diner and the garbage collector and the retired senior are part of this war-based economy. Without war everyone is out of work which is why governments keep us in an ongoing series of wars. Wars produce profits that create jobs — when greed (which is a symptom of fear) doesn’t corrupt the process. A people with no jobs have no money so they cannot consume. They will naturally find another method of exchanging goods and services. This is a threat to those at the top of the power hierarchy.
If you know that YOU are a powerful being, then the question is far less relevant. Your needs will be taken care of because you know how to have your needs (and wants) met. It’s a simple enough thing to do. If you know how live in a realty where you are safe, and we know how to protect our country when we have dismantled the war machine, we know that we, as a nation, are safe from other countries who are still aggressive.
A people who understand just how powerful they are do not need governments dictating behaviors to them, nor do they need churches defining immoral values. They will understand that behaviors are a form of communication, and that as we do to others, we very literally do to ourselves as we invite consequences into our realities because we do, in fact, create our own realities whether we are aware (conscious) of that or not.
When we, as a society, are willing to become more aware of who and what we are and what thoughts and emotions we allow into our lives we can take “conscious” control over the realities that we create.
Fear is the great Satan. It causes us to cower. BUT, when you take conscious control over what you create, fear is no longer there. You know what you are creating and you are expecting it and it comes to you. A person who is not afraid cannot be manipulated.
This is an extraordinarily short brief on a philosophy that has the ability to end all human suffering. I hope that it is complete enough to be understood.
We are like a people in an airplane that we know is crashing. I am suggesting that if this information gets out soon enough, and if enough people test their ability to create, that in short order, we can retake control of the plane. We can have a controlled landing rather than a crash that kills many.
Once we have control of the plane, then those who want to work on putting together a moneyless, earth-friendly society can present their visions, if that is even called for but if in that vision there is a hierarchy that REQUIRES even one person to submit to the authority of another, (save an infant from its mother) it will fail. Why? Because such a vision runs contrary to who and what we are as humans. When I submit to the authority of another, I diminish my own powers, and I need the fullness of my powers in order to create my reality according to my own like-ness. I will not call slavery freedom and I am willing to face the consequences of my own decisions (having pre-ordained those pleasant consequences because I am the powerful god of my reality).
In a world where people know their power, there is no fear. Greed and corruption, money and power over others are all symptoms of the fact that humans do not know who and what they are. Fix that, and hunger, unwanted homelessness, crime, violence, willful ignorance, illness, most psychiatric disorders, ultimately, all social ills will simply fade away and very quickly at that. No need to go to war against poverty (because any war perpetuates the problem it seeks to eradicate). The social ills simply fade from our awareness. We are no longer creating them.
Thank you Gail.
Cheers,
Bob
***
In meditation visualize with joy the people coming out rejecting the economic chains that divide them agreeing to share freely the fruits of our planet working together in co-operation
Visualise sister and brothers all over the world
Make it happen
I forgot an all-important step in manifesting things in your reality:
6. Do this daily until you receive your desire.
Time varies. I’ve had some wants fulfilled in less than 10 minutes. Others a day or two. For reasons I can’t explain, most things take 28 days, but that might well be because I expect them to take longer. Beliefs are important. Others things take more time, but this only happens when I’m not ready to receive now, and in this instance I usually stop visualizing after a month.
For example, the house I live in. I was in another state (living in and traveling in motorhome) when we decided to settle down and grow some roots. I wanted my back yard to resemble the scene I was looking at. Then I wanted so spend a month in Memphis because I love the Mississippi River – so we went there, then as it got colder, we came to my present state, found our house, and bought it (with money). But I’ve received much without $.
for the most part I believe you are explaining positive thinking and many have written on the same, it does work within the confins of your immediate surroundings and most here probablely are well past that point already, it will not stop a sociopath for there effect on you life, it will not solve the larger problems with society, it will not change the operation of the law, judicial , insurance, finance , banking operation,those are the largest problems in every ones life and what really need solving, it in the end run will require those broken unrepairable human debris of abuse to be imprisioned for their crimes against humanity and or to be defeated militarily or just executed. we can t save everyone and we must eliminate those who would not extend human right to others
Chris in response to your post of 11/5 at 9:33AM
I am not speaking of simply “positive thinking” where I can psyche myself into seeing different outcomes and then working toward them. I am trying to express something much more powerful than that.
Yes, we do have the ability to protect the self from a sociopath that’s how I discovered how to place myself in peace to cause violent sociopaths to run away. When I say that I am powerful, I mean that I am powerful. You cannot harm me without my consent.
When I was considerably younger, I saved myself from what was going to be a rape by stepping into a place of peace. At the time, it confused me why he simply walked away. But when I married a sociopath (because they can be very deceptive to those who do not know how to use the unified field that I had never heard of when I married him), I put that piece in place.
He was a very violent man, and I had tried to use the police, the courts, the church, my friends, and any other resource that I could find to get help. All (but my friends who did offer help, but were then punished for it) asked what I had done to upset him so much that he did what he did. The problem was always mine and he was never asked to accept responsibility for what he was doing. One day, he told me that he had played long enough, and that it was the day that I was going to die. I believed him. He had never said those words before, and he was drunk enough that I believed him. Not wanting to die in terror I found a place of peace and was determined to remain there. He picked me up by my shirt and tried to thow me out the 2nd story window onto the asphalt driveway below, but his aim was off (because of the alcohol?) and I landed on the bed. This infuriated him. I remained at peace. He again picked me up by the shirt and threw me to the floor but I didn’t fall violently to the floor. I fell in slow motion. (I realize that that sounds unbelievable, but it did happen) There was only a gentle meeting with the floor and I remained at peace. He tried to hit me with his fist, but he missed. I remained at peace. He backed up and said, “what am I doing”? The assault stopped. He let me leave the marriage and he did not come after me, as he had done so many times before.
No one will ever harm me again. I know how to protect myself.
As to the rest If I want to have something let’s say just for the sake of argument a special kind of ice cream or a grand piano, and I don’t want to go out and buy either, I can be certain that someone will appear at my door with that ice cream or someone will offer me a piano (and the full-sized, mahogany grand piano in my living room is certainly a constant reminder of my abilities). That’s not positive thinking. That’s creating my reality.
The reason why it will stop all of the social ills, is that we get what we ask for and we ask for things in a multitude of ways. Yes, I can visualize things into my reality, but there is more to it than that. I cannot harm you without harming myself. I cannot steal from you or kill you without destroying my ability to create the fullest, most abundant, rewarding, and inspiring reality that I can. An essential morality is built into the worldview where we are the creators of our own realities.
Behaviors are a language and that language expresses our beliefs. Beliefs form the fabric of our realities. If I hurt you, I am expressing a belief in the benefits that I believe I will receive from harming you. But I also have to live in fear after that, because I will have shown myself that I believe that people are inherently dangerous and worthy of being feared. This BELIEF will change my behaviors, and with those behaviors, you don’t really want me in your reality. In that case, I am a threat. It’s the same with dishonesty. If I fail to be truthful, then I will doubt anything that anyone says. When I learned to be honest, I became able to see (through their words and actions) who is to be trusted and who is not.
I will only treat you with respect if I respect myself. Nothing else is ultimately possible. I will love you if I am able to love myself. If I can’t love myself, I don’t know what love is.
A person who is afraid of losing something or everything will behave in a very different way from a person who can simply manifest a new and better thing than that which was given away. (The person believes in the scarcity principle, will guard possessions and live in fear. A person who believes in abundance has no need to live in fear of others’ taking that which I have manifested. It’s not really relevant to a productive or rewarding life. First of all, I am safe, but if someone really wants what I have manifested, (the hard way to get things), they can have them. But the consequences they will pay would be far harsher than the consequence that I will pay by simply manifesting newer and better.
For all of the “morality” that churches and governments use to keep us living in fear, and for all of the police, jails, and armies that keep us cowering, there surely is a lot of war, crime, and violence in our society.
If you believe that these social ills are a necessary component of human life, then you will not work to show others how these are not necessary components being unable to see that they are not. You will not work to show yourself that this is not true.
You would cleanse our society of those who don’t agree with you but the thing is they do agree with you. They too believe in scarcity. Cleanse them from the face of the earth, and it will be very little time later before you are brought under the microcope because you do not have a political lobby to defend you and you are perceived as a threat perhaps because of what you say or what you do. History is full of such examples.
There is evidence coming out of various prisons that are using meditation to see if it affects the behaviors of the most violent in the prison population. The benefits are undeniable according to the wardens who show statistical evidence of significant reductions in “reportable” behaviors, increased observance of empathy for others, increased volunteering to help their inmates and prison staff. These people are lifers who used violence to express their anger and frustration, but because of meditation, have come to terms with what they have done to themselves and their victims You see, as we do to others, there is always an amplified consequence in our own lives.
There is evidence coming out of inner city schools that instituted meditation programs as part of the daily routine. Bullying stopped. Gangs who used to hang around, left the school area. Grades went up. Teachers began enjoying their jobs again. The school became a community and divisions seemed to disappear. There was no longer the “popular” kids clique. Mutual respect among all was obvious.
There is evidence coming out of the offices of social workers who brought people in to teach prostitutes how to meditate. They began to feel safer while on the job more able to determine which clients to accept and which to reject. They began looking for alternative “careers”. This was only with the addition of meditation. It didn’t even involve teaching these girls how to literally create their realities.
If we can tell people HOW to get to the point where we are ready to begin a moneyless society, we can achieve it. It will simply make sense.
gail, excuse me for being the proverbial doubting thomas but if more than a few of you are currently doing this how come we have a world in far more chaos that even 25 years ago. I would beleve it if I saw more of the effect you beleive you see. If the notion is that evil people are then repelled by you and thier direction onto another, are we then really solving our problems? if this would work wouldn t then robert be able to get dave 10 time the value of the stuff he threw away from the housing people. I would not be ever looking for handouts from other people in sympathy, I would like to get stolen property back from theieves and government people who are secondary thieves, that would be results
Gail,
What does control of the plane mean?
Cheers,
Bob
***
Gail,
Are your ideas similar to those of Wayne Dyer? I have his books but haven’t read them for a good while.
Cheers,
Bob
***
I think there is too much talk of Hitler here. Ctrl + F, hitler finds 20 instances. I don’t think we need another Hitler or any other mad leader, we just need to work together to solve our problems.
Cheers,
Bob
***
well, now you are making some break through, understanding the problem is half way to a solution. you have acted in a manner not in the best interst with this housing situation, but all is not lost, now, whales and the us are two separate entities politically deriving their being from two diverse rising, now, how in the world is it then that a vile sub orginazation as a housing authority exist there and the same tries to operate likewise in the united states, from where does this emanate from that is what has to be addressed and then mortally attacked. there is a site named free keene new hampshire, one man has been addressing that issue there, if fact i believe he may be in jail at the present on the issue, marc stevens, who in my opinion is the foremost authority in the united states on law is assisting in that fight his site can be found on you tube also, your point indicates without a doubt that the entity you yielded to has nothing to do with the government of whales than the units here have to do with the government here. If the dealing is with some foreign body, where do they get there power imposing there desires on a free and independent people. you have a claim against those indidivuals they have no protection from claims and you need to do some action against them, if nothing more initially as to locate where they live and get pictures and file a claim internaionally against their person and property and give them a claim affadavit. if the people in that area are apprised of the issue there have to be anumber of people who will endorse you affidavit. Government people are slaves of the illuminati, if a force is presented to them they will in time yield, recently in californiz within the last 3 weeks 8 county sheriffs have taken sides with the people and against the governemnt, and will no longer do the bidding of the government in those victimless crimes. what a person acquires for themselves is no business of a government entity or any other fictional creation, or the operatives of the same. I would list the complaint as they were casing the property for further theft at a later time.
i think the thought is that because the dictator form of government is more efficient at getting things accomplished and that there is so much that needs to be done, that the name is used in place of dictator for efficiency, not that any one wants to pick up the historical bad vibes emitted from that time. If you do want to change things you have to realize you will not do it by trying to convince those who oppress that they are evil and are doing wrong, the definition of a socio-path is in fact that they believe they are the benefactor of their oppressed, even when they kill them. dialogue is nearly a waste of time, it is somethime beneficial as other onlooker gain infomation
robert, further, your incident indicates that with those housing people there and here that some entity has infiltrated both the government of the united states and whales doing the very same thing, that otherwise no similiar situation could exist, the legal therory is as in this country, called the smoking gun theory. a gun shot is heard from the other room, you walk into the room from which the sound was heard and joe is holding the smoking gun. you didn t see joe fire the gun but with the circumstances we all know that joe committed the murder. it may be coincidentl and conclusionary, but you have valid charges against those people as foreign operatives and the committing of a crime against people
Chris,
I wish I could understand you. As I said, problem solved. By combining Dave’s rights as a tenant and my work on sorting the physical problem that Dave had caused himself we got the extra time we need to properly go through Dave’s stuff so that we can keep what is worth keeping and get rid of the rubbish.
***
I don’t see any other problem. And this teaches all of us how powerful we are when we combine our strengths. if just two of us can beat the forces of oppression at this level then more of us can beat it at higher levels. And if we keep believing in ourselves we can beat it at all levels. It is as simple as that.
***
I can supply a more detailed explanation of what we need to do, but I’d rather just get on with doing rather than explaining. Doing is the main part. Explaining is only valuable as part of doing. Otherwise it is lost opportunity.
***
Now Dave and I have to go to my store and pull out his stuff and go through it all, but we can do that any time. It cost me over £25,000 to set up my store and it makes me no money and I let Dave use it for free and he helps me in return. He helped me yesterday get roofing materials up to my other store roof to waterproof it, and he will help me some more in future, and I will help him some more. As others join us we will help each other and grow. You could do the same in your own area, or you could join together here or elsewhere. The time is now. Opportunity is knocking.
Cheers,
Bob
***
because you yielded to an oppressive oligarchy admlitting you have no standing or rights, whether anything needed sorting and or disposing is only the decision of the owner and according to their time frame if any or not. it does give quite a bit of understanding to the blog though as it indicates that nothing will ever change because if you are so willing to do all the oligarchy ever ask of you then everyone knows well they will always reply to the offer to change to a moneyless society with a no as it is their cash cow amongst other things. then again, if you would spare the life a a ruthless criminal as gadaffi then all these other behind the scenes, you shure would never be able to move to anything better much a money less society
Chris, we did not yield to them we played them at their own game and won. They won too so it was win win. This is what is needed. An end to war in which everyone loses and a start to a new way in which everyone wins. Those who rise to the top in a bad system did not create it, and they usually do bad things simply to retain power. This aught not be possible, but it is. And shooting Gadaffi has not changed the world. He could have been put to work in the service of the people of Libya. Now he can’t be. Do you want to be the shooter? killing is bad for the killers too, even if their shooting is as soldiers in armies. Ex soldiers suffer greatly for as long as they live. They blame themselves and feel guilt and shame if they allowed themselves as soldiers to kill or injure others. I don’t think you are vegan or even vegetarian are you? am I the only vegan here? Am I the only freegan here?
***
If we all work together we can beat the oligarchy and change the system so that no-one has to be a member of the oppressors, or the oppressed. People do not set out to be oppressors, they slide into it. In an oppressive regime someone has to do the dirty work. I’m just glad it is not me. Aren’t you glad it’s not you?
Cheers,
Bob
***
Cheers
one of the larger problems in the world today is the excess number of people, traditionally the oligarchy used wars to thin the herd, it is suggested that some of the virus are being used likewise to thin the herd, i don t have a problem with getting rid of evil people, i don t see that retraining any criminal element has any measure of success, no is it worth the time. The question in thinning the herd is who gets thinned. I believe the defective are the one to be chosen. I therefore have no problelm with the excecution of kadafi or any of his followeres. If they remain they will be nothing but obsticles to overcome. And too often they will effectively inhibit reform. I do agree with the illuminati that the 7 billion need be reduced to 2 billion to effectively have the resources for the remaining. I have a problem of who is in the group of the remaining 2 billion.
There is a book called “Peace Pilgrim”. It is available for free or with a donation (which is used to publish books and offer them for free to those who cannot pay).
A non-religious retired woman was reading the words of Jesus, when she wondered if what he said was true. Can we go out into the world with no worldly goods and survive in a pleasurable way. Wanting to test the thesis, she headed out to the Appalachin trail one spring morning with only a toothbrush, a pen, some envelopes, and two stamps. That fall, she knew that it was true.
The followiing spring, she left her home and never returned. She travelled around the country talking about the power of peace. She did that for more than 30 years – carrying nothing more than the barest essentials that she stored in two pockets that she sewed onto her shirt.
she ate when she was offered food and accepted a bed when it was offered. When these things weren’t offered, she ate berries and slept under the stars – which she came to prefer. She beame known as the Peace Pilgrim and was soon known simply as Peace. Soon she was in-demand, and was asked to speak in many, many places.
Her mission was to show people how powerful they are through the power of peace.
My mission is to show peole how they can have what they want when they want it.
Both use the same principle.
I don’t know why my last comments said that it was a reply to Bob. It wasn’t. It was merely a posting.
Hi Gail,
It doesn’t say that, that is a link at the bottom of my piece to enable the reader to reply to me, just as yours has reply to Gail at the bottom. Anyway, so how do we learn to use the power of meditation, especially if we are not into meditation or not comfortable with it? Can we get others to do it for us, for instance? I got a very nice piano without even wishing for it? What I want right now is the piston and cylinder for my Zetor 5745 tractor that I bought online some weeks ago. I wonder if it will arrive if we all meditate on it? Or for that matter, if we don’t?
Cheers,
Bob
***
If you follow the steps I offer, whatever you want will appear – whether you are willing to pay for it or you want it to come to you free. That’s how it works. We do not have to come together to meditate on what we personally want. In fact, that would be counter-productive. If you already bought it, then it will appear anyhow. Your aggressive and insulting question is unnecessary and counter-productive to finding a solution for a moneyless society.
YOU are the god of YOUR reality — we are not. YOU are responsible for what you have or do not have — we are not. You have a responsibility to yourself that no one else has. If you do not have something that you want – even if you think that it doesn’t exist any more, then that is only evidence that you don’t want it enough to create it. That’s not MY problem. It is clearly YOURS though. There is a reality where we are equal and all of your hostility is wasted on everyone but you.
You can criticize and belittle me all you want, but that doesn’t bring anything to you – nor is it possible to hurt me because in MY reality, you are pretty irrelevant. My interest is in getting a message about science-based facts out to as many as possible, not defending myself against your ignorance. The message wasn’t even meant for you, but your reply gives me another opportunity to clear up confusion for others who may read this.
In fact, if you believe that what you want won’t appear, it won’t. You have to keep an open mind if you want to manifest your desires. Only this will ALLOW it to appear. You don’t even have to beleive it. Just keep an open mind as you follow a few simple steps.
Group meditation is different than personal reality creation. It’s difference because it works on a group level. It works because it appeals to the want of the group. A group meditating in peace do not want to be joined by those who do not believe in the possibility of peace, though it makes no difference whether you do or not. Those people like you (now) will not be able to access the place / feelings that allow peace to appear. It’s quite unlikely that they would want to waste their time participating in something that they think is a waste of time. In fact, they would probably so look down their noses at those like me that they will be outside telling people to laugh at those who have scientific evidence that proves that we are bringing forth the very things that you are fighting against while you are loudly professing (without evidence) that your idea is better.
But – to touch upon your core objection – the facts are there. Legitimate scientists have proven it. So your scoffing does no harm to me. It only harms you. I do not CHOOSE to give you power over my reality – or in it for that matter.
YOU have the right to design any life that you want. THAT is YOUR choice. You can live in as angry and mean world as you want. You can’t harm me because I have the right to design the life that I want and you have no power in my dimension because “I” am the god of MY reality, just as YOU are the god of YOURS.
Gail,
What was all that about? Why are you so angry? I think you are reading into what I am saying a whole lot of negativity that simply is not there. You are leaving me confused. I can sort out what I want for myself, but I want world peace for everyone. Money gets in the way of peace because war is profitable. War will not be profitable in a moneyless world. It will be seen as a terrible thing by everyone. You seem to be projecting your anger onto me for some reason. I suggest you read what I say with a bit more charity and stop seeing me as an enemy. I am not your enemy. I am not anyone’s enemy. I would not have had Gadaffi killed, for instance.
Cheers,
Bob
***
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Time check in UK right now… 17:11
Chris-
I don’t think that we can avoid war any more. Time has run out. It’s the obvious answer to the world’s problems.
Right now, we have a war-based economy. The global economy is war-based. You may think that when you go to Walmart to buy some shoes that you are not supporting the war effort, but you are. All jobs support that war efforts that are financed by the central bank.
Ideally, if the few keep reinvesting the $$$, jobs are created (though less and less over time) and consumers can keep consuming. Now, where the few are keeping the money and not reinvesting it into the economy, there are fewer and fewer consumers.
Take away enough consumers and those made poor will be mighty expense to house, clothe, feed, and keep warm this winter. It will be necessary to start riots and wars so that our numbers can be reduced. That’s how war-based economies traditionally work.
Of course, we could have a plague. That would work just as well. But they are too often to easy to cure before enough people die, and they create their own problems.
Of the 5 billion that you want to do away with, can you begin listing those that you would anhiliate? I assume that you will start with politicians. Are you on the list? Am I?
The following video says that the world is deterministic. Einstein believed in it. Thus the birth of a so called criminal can be predicted and therefore a criminal cannot be bad. However the video also says Einstein was wrong. Quantum mechanics says there is uncertainty and you cannot predict it. Einstein said god does not play dice. I agree with Einstein. Quantum mechanics says you cannot predict it. That does not mean existence of absolute predictability is wrong. We cannot predict because we do not have the technology to do so. We use probability only when we fail to do it accurately. Quantum mechanics is all about probability.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFLR5vNKiSw&feature=related
Thus good and bad words cannot exist. These words were created by people in power to control rest of us. In nature nothing can be good or bad. We do not say – apple is good and orange is bad, dog is good and cat is bad, rain is bad and sunshine is good. We have accepted the nature just the way it is. So we should not say Mr. X is good and Mr. Y is bad. We must accept them as they are. We are all product of nature. Thus there is a need and purpose for every kind of people. Don’t feel bad and frustrated, and waste your energy, and the calmness that you have acquired through meditation.
Nature has another interesting law {birth process, maturity process, death process}. For everything in this universe this law is valid. Imperialism was born, matured, and then died. We all take birth, make our contributions, and then die. The banks (money) were there all along for more than 2000 years. They have evolved into central banks and capitalism now. It is time for money to enter its death process. The capitalism has shown us the possibility of moneyless economy. It is difficult to predict when and how it will happen. But the owners of central banks will not give up its power so easily without a violent war to complete the death process for money.
Hi Subhendu,
So what is the next step?
Cheers,
Bob
***
There is NO population problem! There IS a management of resources problem.
There is ample resources to give all people what they need and more. The current projection for world population is a leveling off at 10 billion within the next 50 years then a decrease in population. Dont be a victim of right wing extremist properganda that will justify mass murder as a way of population control………….its just crap.
nick there certainly is a resources mismanagement problem as you say, and that is why though like robert cleared out property of daves to appease local government, I doubt that dave thought all of that was garbage, things recycled or put in landfill prior to their full exhaustion are certainly mismanagement of resources, I do know though likewise the Us us currently overpopulated, it creates a scarcity of property which makes it unaffordable to working persons and scarce for those under their luck. overpopultion makes the environment unsave biologically for all, it is the same on the range 8 cattle per acre all the food is existant to feed and keep cattle healthy, the 9th steed, everything that animal eats will have to be drawn in for consumption, we are over grazing already, if the available petrol were not in adequater supply we would be in deep trouble at early stages the question is how to address the problem. war is the least favorable.
The quality of this thread become very doubtfull.
Gail [I speak with much experience] , dont waste your energy explaining anything to Bob, he will not accept anything that is not in his beleif system, when he is forced to acknowledge truth , he grudgingly admits it but the next day he reverts back to his usual ignorance. As far as intelleget, logical debate goes Bob is a complete time waster. His motive for being of sites that allude to socialism or moneyfree world is to promote his business idea for a co-op, that in his imagination will spread global and helrald in world socialism…. On many sites he will write that a moneyfree world is impossible. Gail some people do not respond to logic and its a complete waste of time to interact with them.
Hi Nick,
I agree with your eugenicist view on the world’s population totally. But I would ask everyone here to be loving and be peaceful, as we are spirit souls all on the same journey to mature our consciousness, no one is above nor below another. I see that everyone has the potential to change and to grow no matter how stubborn one may ‘seem’ be, don’t forget that we’re all too still growing and I too would love others to give me ‘patience’ and ‘time’ to mature in my own time.
I ‘see’ that everyone here is on the same mission, and that is to create the next shift in paradigm, and this is a moneyless society. I ‘see’ that each one here is already ‘contributed’ to the ‘idea’ of this up and coming ‘golden age’ for humanity, because we are intrinsically linked in more way most of our scientist has yet to realize or dare to admit. The very fact that no matter who says what, it is the simple fact that there is more and more people are coming to the same ideal and realization that our current economic model is but to fail as it is no longer serving it’s purpose. We are after all do operate on a collective unity consciousness, only it is now more visible than in our previous history, just instead of the fear of the past we’re now coming into the light, but we are still moving forward and upward as a species together in unison.
The momentum is now well underway, I suggest you all to have more patience and DO believe and DO project how our world would be as we ARE the creator and the architect of our ‘reality’. I suggest we all to let go of our struggles with our ego-ic mind and to accept all a part of the whole which make up the collective we know as humanity. We do need to first to ‘be’ the ‘change’ that we wanted to ‘be’, and if your interest for a moneyless society is for the betterment for all of humanity, then you are already manifesting the love for all humanity, I’m sure it is not difficult to go the next step to accept people as they are and allow them time to grow, just as we too need this ‘space’ for our own growth.
Love and light to you all. Namaste
Namaste Danny Chau,
You must have some friends from India. Namaste is the informal version of Namaskar. I am from Calcutta area of India, which is West Bengal. East Bengal has become Bangladesh now. Namaskar is used as a common greeting in West Bengal and in Calcutta (Now Kolkata). The word is usually pronounced with two palms touching, held near chest, and with a slight bow.
Namskar = Namo + Swa + Akar. It is a Sanskrit word. Namo = I bow to you. Swa = God or He or Him. Akar = shape.
I bow to god who has taken your shape. We are all part of god. That is same as god is inside all of us. That is what Indian philosophy is all about. So God is in your body and I pray to you to honor Him.
But Indians have forgot these values. Capitalism will probably give the last blow to destroy all values of India.
Namaskar,
Subhendu Das
Nick,
If you are going to spread lies about me, please provide links to where I have said a moneyfree world is impossible, for instance. A moneyfree world is what I have been advocating for the last fifty years or more. No-one would listen to such crazy talk in 1960. Few do now, but i was one of the pioneers of such thinking. So please keep your lies to yourself.
***
By the way, I do not have a belief system. I am ready to take on new ideas any time. I take Gail seriously and I do not understand why you or she might think otherwise. She could be right, she could be wrong, who knows? Time will tell.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Hi Bob,
As you said it here, you are a poineer and your thoughts has instigated the ‘moneyless’ movement along with many who has the same idea, rest at that, you don’t need anyone to ‘confirm’ your believe. I suggest to take ‘any’ attack with a pinch of salt and to forgive all acts of ‘unconsciousness’, for we are all on same path of growth together.
I believe in positive energy of exchange and in time all will mature and would respond with love and respect to all.
Just to let you know I appreciate the existence of this blog, as to me this is the evidence of the change in our consciousness.
Best,
Danny
Bob,
You said you got the idea of moneyless economy (MLE) around 1960. I thought the idea originated in 1986 from the Star Trek movie. I got the idea (on 2009) independently while researching on central bank. Then I found it was already well known on the internet. I felt little sad, but this happened to me many times in the past. Eventually I have created a law of conservation of memory – you cannot invent anything, you can only transform other existing ideas to a new format. Example – Wheels, Engine, Chassis all put together produced a car. But the components were already invented before car.
Would you please let me know about the details on how you got the idea around that time in 1960? Could you remember any links to any kind of paper, report, TV program etc. that talked about MLE around or before that time? What would be the oldest origin of the MLE? Does anyone know about the history of MLE?
Hi subhendu,
I read a number of my father’s books, like the Age of Reason by Tom Paine, and I was poor and wondered why some are poor and others rich, and I came to the conclusion that money makes us poor. Money makes the world a poorer place. It makes very few rich and only in certain ways. As I got older and became a motor mechanic I saw that cars were made to rust away, and reasoned this was so they could sell more cars. So money was to blame for this stupidity. There are so many instances of such money stupidity. But money is now needed to be used to pay our way out of this madness. Without wise use of all resources including money we will not succeed in uniting the people, and a divided people is a conquered people. I don’t properly remember my thinking when I was 12 in 1960, but it was very different from everyone around me, and it was in flux and still is. I think Robert Owen got his ideas from Paine, the same as I did. Only Owen did not admit it. But Paine did not speak of a moneyless economy, that was a conclusion I came to on my own.
Cheers,
Bob
***
A view point on Wars:
The war in Afghanistan started on October 7, 2001. In the middle of this war the central bank planned a meeting in Bonn, Germany, started printing new currency, and by Jan 2, 2002 replaced all old Afghan currencies. The PBS news reporter Margaret Warner asked the advisor to the new central bank in Afghanistan why it was so important to change the currency at this critical war time.
The Iraq war started on March 20, 2003. By January 15, 2004 all Iraqi currencies were replaced by new currency and the central bank was installed on March 6, 2004. In the middle of Iraq war, the west has installed the central bank, without even telling the people what they are doing. Nobody in the government of Iraq, which was not even there, realized what happened to their money and power of their people.
Now we know why we went to war against the Muslim countries. There are at least 10 books on the conspiracy theory of 9-11. And probably one million people have read them by now and believe in it too. It is quite possible that 9-11 was engineered to create war to install central banks. War drums are beating against Iran and North Korea. These are the only two countries where we do not have the western central banks now.
It may be quite possible that the maturity process of central banking system has not ended. Therefore its death process cannot begin now also. We may have to wait for now. I have a feeling that once we have central banks everywhere, and the world domination is achieved, then there will be no more wars. But all people will be poor and only 1% will be rich, just the way it was in Soviet Union.
Then we must do something about it Subhendu. And quickly. As long as we let them do what they want they will keep doing it. But we are far greater in number than the one percent. We are 99 times stronger than they are, but we must organise. And we must finance the changes, not just write stuff on the Internet. I am already doing this, but I cannot do it alone. Who will join me in taking action at the financial as well as the theoretical level? If they can use money then we can use money also.
Cheers,
Bob
***
as far as I can recall only china has refused to join the world bank, repeatedly and with threats, they are also because of it one of the most stable finanacially in the world, I believe venezuela participates in world bank but only marginally
Yes Bob, I also want a quick action. But I cannot support anyone or any activity with money. I need money for my own survival. I cannot physically go and join Occupy movement (OWS). I tried their website but it is difficult to track things there, it appears.
It seems you have some ideas that you want to take action on. Please let us know what you have in mind. I am ready to join you in whatever way I can.
(1) My idea is to join all websites of OWS of all countries and spread the ideas of MLE (Moneyless Economy). Start discussing one person at a time and convince them. Pursue them to investigate the FAQ on MLE. Address their issues one item at a time. I am doing this also.
(2) We can also help OWS to see that the city and police do not go against them and remove them from their camps. It is very important to help them to survive the winter period. I think one sub group in each OWS place should focus on cleanup activity of the land they are occupying. Creating a dirty and unhygienic environment giving the opportunity to remove them. The Oakland, California case is an example.
(3) The Oakland movement did one very good thing to protest. They created city wide strike. We can create also such strikes at least once per month in all cities where OWS is active.
(4) We should also talk to all members of the parliament or congress and educate them about the central bank. I believe that 90% of the politicians do not know the central bank and its activities. If they can be organized then the OWS may become successful.
(5) We may also focus a specific country, like Greece, Libya, Egypt, Ireland etc. Put our all energy on that country to change it. MLE is not known very well. Resource based economy (RBE) is more well known. But I think RBE is a ploy to destroy MLE movement.
(6) As you suggested we can do something to get financial support for OWS. We may hire a fund raiser to acquire monetary help. This is necessary. How long these people can survive on their own?
I’m in the process myself, I widely spread my belief in the moneyless society – first as an idea to most whom are trapped in mind that there is no better alternative. It is until the awareness of the vast majority who can ‘see’ that they’re nothing but ‘slaves’ who scrabbles for a ‘wage’ that can hardly keep them going for a month, as all the costs were ‘designed’ to keep them at bay, so as long most thinks that they are ‘trapped’, they WILL BE.
I’m a believer of our innate connection via the ‘morphic field’, this WILL grow in momentum and will eventually has the opposing effect of ‘mass hysteria’ to ‘mass awakening’. Look around our world right now, the Zeitgeist movement, the Disclosure Project and many many more groups and organizations has sprung up all over the planet, all for what? CHANGE… to me this IS the writing on the WALL, we are witnessing the very CHANGE is now taken place and gathering speed.
I can tell you that we will ‘see’ the change within our lifetime (at least I know I will).
To Bob, nice to see you are asking for peoples money again Bob, you really are a con artist arent you. So Bob you dont remember the big argument we had earlier this year on the WSM forum about you and your belief that we cant live without money….or simpol… well according to you, we cant live without money untill we have given you our money to implement your plan [which you plagerised from the venus project.]Bob circle, pull the other one!
Yet more lies from Nick Tapping. I’m not asking people for money, I am suggesting change needs financing and I have written about how it can be financed and not a penny needs to come to me. In fact I am financing the change in my area from my own funds. So keep your lies to yourself Nick. You don’t know me and you misrepresent my ideas. You don’t seem to have any ideas of your own. Even your world strike idea isn’t yours. Not saying you claim otherwise. How is it going by the way. Many strikers on board yet?
***
For an idea to work it has to have elements of the society it is trying to change. In this case it has to be jobs based so that participants get paid, otherwise they will remain loyal to the old order that we want to see the end of. I have already explained about buying land on which to grow our own food and distributing this free of charge to members and the public (through free food vegan cafés) as well as creating what I now call flexi co-ops to serve as many needs of the group and surrounding population as possible. So where have I said anyone should send me their money Nick? I have asked for volunteer help in the past but have now given up asking since so few are able to give their time freely. I now realise that I will have to pay others for their time, even though I am trying to bring in a moneyless system.
Cheers,
Bob
***
That is the biggest lie of all, that I plagiarised the Venus Project, since I formulated my ideas , like the circle city idea, decades before I knew about the Venus Project. And there are only superficial similarities anyway.
Check your facts Nick.
Cheers,
Bob
***
to Chris the answer is better management , when we leave management to capital economics we are doomed…… look you mention petrol…. where I live in England it is cheaper to drive into town than it is to use public transport….. how crazy is that ? wheres the economics in that?. Again I repeat there is no population problem only bad management………..sure places get overcrowded but why ? because of capital economic nessesity. People go where the money is, where they hope to suceed financialy.
Nearly every developt nation has a falling population, many countrys like singapore, australia, taiwan are trying to persuade their citizens to have more babys….madness , money makes us crazy…. well lets give all our money to bob and make him emperor
I agree, the monied elete are terrible managers of assets, but other than the individual, you and I and the other individuals no other entity has the ability to rightfully watch the assets of the earth. I do still believe we have overgrazed the earth and that resources as far a restorable resources are severely strained. not all poverty is caued by that quite a bit is by poor distribution process but some is by overgrazing
The first recorded idea about a moneyfree society comes from the WSM , world social movement approx 107 years ago
[bob should know that as he is a regular user of their forum]
if anyone is bothered , you can check all bobs posts on the WSM forum as for his statement that he came up with a moneyfree society himself …. well its laughable.
Bob i have nothing to gain by lying, i dont put out false info
Bob you just wrote,
“Who will join me in taking action at the financial as well as the theoretical level?”.
I think thats asking for money, and time and time again you have been asking people to help finance your co-op idea. I really dont see how you can deny these things!
Bob you are a con man and a liar and I think everyone should know that.
Nick,
I never said I was the first to invent the moneyless idea, I said I came up with it in 1960 long before I knew anyone else had the same idea. I didn’t get it from anyone else or a book or anything, it was simply a logical conclusion to a logical fellow. But you might struggle with logic, or think that I do.
Cheers,
Bob
***
firstly i am sorry for bringing down the quality of a quality discussion board. I will no longer talk about Bob , the facts are here on the internet for anyone bothered to find out about Bob.
More important is what we can do NOW to bring the moneyfree debate into real time and space.
at this moment the Occupy movement has spread to all continents of the world, and is permeated by the moneyfree movement . I urge all of you to give the Occupy movement your support , not just on the internet but in real time. also the Anonymous movement, which itself is heavily involved not only in the Occupy movement but also in the moneyfree movement is growing and will also benefit form your support.
since this discussion started the social movement has changed radiccally and the moneyfree movement has grown enormously, the possibility of the moneyfree movement to go mainstream is fast becoming a reality.
Please show your support for these movements and help bring this discussion into real time and space.
Nick,
You cannot tell the difference between me asking people to give me their money and me asking them to invest in their own futures. And if I had asked anyone to give me their money do you think they would do so. I’m not so foolish as to think they would. Unfortunately, so far, too few are investing in their own futures in any meaningful collective way that I have suggested. I have invested in my own future by buying land and properties and tractors and equipment, and I’m suggesting others do the same for themselves. That is not giving me their money is it? All this certainly is on the Internet in the WSM forum and many other places, and anyone who understands plain English will see that I am urging other to do what I am doing but collectively, in their own regions, or here collectively with me. I will help them financially in any way that I can. I will help them get rich if they want as I have done so (to a limited extent) and as I helped my friend Mike Sosner to do (to a less limited extent). In other words Mike has done better than me and that is because I spend too much time at the computer, as I am doing right now.
Cheers everyone,
Bob
***
Do we have a resource problem?
While standing straight, one person occupies a floor space of 2′x1′ = 2 square feet, approximately. Thus if we bring all the people of the world in one place they will occupy 7×2 = 14 billion square feet. One square mile is 5280×5280 = 27878400 square feet. All people will therefore occupy 502181 square mile of earth. This is less than 600,000 square mile of land. This is smaller than the state of Alaska (663,267 sq.mi) in USA or a country like Iran (636,128 sq.mi)
In summary, if you line up all the people of the world they will not fill up the largest state of USA. Thus the world is too big for all of us.
[I read this idea of measuring population in some document several years back.]
Subhendu,
I guess you have your tongue in your cheek. However, just in case you are serious, we need space to grow our food and also trees to take carbon out of the atmosphere (three acres each)(21 billion acres total)and even without that we need enough room to lie down.
Cheers,
Bob
***
FAQ: Do we have to manage resources in MLE?
It seems this question has become a problem area for MLE. Everybody is asking this question and we are getting distracted. I answered the question in the following way. Let me know if it works.
Yes, we have to always manage our resources, just like we are doing it now.
At present, if one million rich people try to buy corporate jets, they may not get it. They will have to wait in line for the manufacturers to produce them. Same thing will happen in the MLE also. If everybody wants something that is scarce, then we have to wait in line.
However, in MLE our philosophy and psychology will change. Since everything will be free, we may not try to get them as we are doing now. There will be no special economic or status symbols attached to corporate jets or luxury cars etc. Because anyone can have them, at any time, and they will be all free. So we will no longer remain a consumer society. Nobody will continuously advertise on the TV to go and buy something. We will buy only what we need.
As a result of changes in our attitudes, the demand for our resources will also change. Many resources which are scarce now can become abundant again. On the other hand, many things we cannot produce now, because of scarce manufacturing facilities. That will be gone too in MLE. We can start a duplicate factory, hire more people, buy capital assets free, and start to manufacture there. Also anyone will be able to start producing things we need. There will be no need to wait for banks to loan you money. There will be no need to convince venture capital companies for your patented ideas.
The environment in MLE will change. If it is cube now, it will become a sphere then. The ideas that are valid in a cube will not work in a sphere. It will not be a good idea to extrapolate present problems and constraints to a new environment. That will not work and will create confusions.
Most people are focusing their energys on making money. while they are not doing this they spend time on the computor. A minority of us get on the street , often abused and violently assaulted by the police. While the computor is a great way of communicating, real change takes place on the street and is counted by our numbers, this has been seen all over the world.
I urge all of you who have the means [like bob] to show your support on the streets and not to much spend time navel gazing on obscure websites such as this.
OVER GRazing,….. if we all demand to eat BEEF every day then we will have over grazing problems,
THE Elite do NOT manage our resourses , the elite SELL our resources and it results in 5 million people starving to death every year , billions more suffering in poverty that we in the west can hardly imagine , they create wars, over production of non essential items and are literelly the SCUM of the earth!
We are organizing we are going GLOBAL . WE are doing this without the need to invest & save money for dodgy business deals.
We will not buy ourselves a moneyfree world , the same as we will not achieve an end to war by going to war. We will achieve a moneyfree world by demanding a moneyfree world.
subhendue , yess that is way far off, because, you not only need area to grow food that land needs to lay fallow for at least every 3rd year and then other land needs to take its place, when disaster strikes, land in other areas need to take the place of the devastated area to minimize effect, already the stratosphere is suffering to a minor degree and probablly less than 15 % of the worlds population have airconditoning, probably can never accommodate even 25% of the current population without major devastation to quality of all life on planet. if 50% of the population began using auto transportaion the heat from exhaust could be devastating, not to considering the consequences of paving the necessary roads, the space the people stand is nothing compared to the house footprint on the planet. if ther are to be recreation areas etc addition area far more in consequences are requred. further as the seas are nearly overfished and species are eliminated food supplies would be in short demand. oil while somewhat pelentiful, as more demand it will be diminished moreso.
Chris,
Sometimes we feel lost when we think about 7 billion population. I tried to give the opposite impression when I said everybody does not even fill up a country of size Iran. At present we can fit 90 Irans in the world. Per person we can have 229 sq ft of land (= 57,491,000 sq. mi/7 billion).
I think per person based analysis is probably wrong. I cannot point out exactly what is wrong, but somehow does not seem to be right. We are all interacting simultaneously, always together, physically and mentally. We are never isolated. Community approach has evolved and should continue in future also.
When India had 500 million people everybody in the world thought that the country would starve to death. Today India has three times the population and it is exporting food. If you travel across India you will find vast stretches of land, miles after miles, wherever you look, are empty.
Israel was almost a barren land but now it has become green and self-sufficient in food production. Investors are buying lands in Africa for mass scale food production to feed the world. Los Angeles was almost a desert 50 years back, now probably 30 million people are living around the area, and it is quite green. Water comes 500 miles away from San Francisco. China is populating the occupied Tibet, snow covered and deserted, by sending millions of Chinese by newly developed train lines.
People have produced food in almost all types of land all over the world. I am not sure if we have to think about food shortage problems. After all we are not planning to abandon everything we have created during capitalism. We will build on it under the completely democratic MLE system.
We do not have food shortage now, why do we think we will have in future? The shortage that we see now are man made and are required for the survival of capitalism.
well, 200 sq foot barely makes a good size bedroom, you make my point clearly thanks
Chris , we cant live our capitalist/consumer lifestyle without screwing up our world. Even the UK prince charles is in a agreement with that [see his latest speech].
Not only do we need to change the system , we need to change the lifestyle the system encourages, [that includes our diet].
I was under the understanding 1 and half acres was what we needed each to provide food for ourselves not 3 acres, but I suppose it will vary depending on what we grow and the quality of the soil.
Our present mode of housing is way way unecological and unsubstainable and the housing legislation accross Europe make it almost impossible to creat sustainable dwellings. The most effecient, economical , sustainable housing would be to have the majority of the dwelling under the ground , creating natural insulation and saving space. We need also to look at, how much living space we actually need. One of the most qualititive times in my life was living in a small caravan and one of things it taught me was how little space we actually need.
Really in many ways it comes down to better management, sustainable living Vs Genocide and forced population control. what would you choose?
yeah, the eletists want us to live in total desperation so that they will have more to waste foolishly
nick, first to build underground anywhere is expensive and the technology is not well proven, some areas it is next to impossible. the places it can be done, greaT, COST is the big stopper, any thing that would change has to have som wide spread approval. oligarchy will not submit to any change. women will few accept change, young will not readily accept change. older poor may accept change, older well off will not accept change, obstacles are great
Nick,
Glad to see you are getting to where I was in my thinking in 1971. The three acres each is for fuel as well as food. As vegans we only need a fifth of an acre each. Meat eaters need far more. One cow needs an acre, one horse needs two and a half acres. Not saying anyone should eat a horse. Just for comparison. I was putting the idea of living underground back, as I say, in 1971, but there were few takers. Only one in fact, Dave Graham’s son Simon who was, I think, 14 at the time. So I modified my thinking as I do every time I run up against reality. I now support a building style that is part over ground and part underground. That keeps everyone happy. To change the world we have to have a plan that does that, keeps everyone happy. And we have to facilitate the change, in as many ways as we can think of.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Bob there are several reasons why i dislike you immensley, one of them being your very patronizing manner which i feel terribly offensive , yet i doubt you even realise how patronizing you are.
I havnt just popped out of the wood work and started thinking , while you were a wage slave I had already opted out of society and taken the road of freedom and rebellion. while you are discovering chopping wood and communual living , thinking you have invented it , ive been there done that moved on. God save us from twats like you.
Who is this God fellow, then?
Whoever he is I don’t think he’ll save you from anyone. You’ll need to save yourself Nick.
***
By the way, what was your plan? How’s it going? It should be way ahead of mine since you’ve been there and done that, ah but you moved on, you didn’t stick with it did you? That’s important too you know. Decide on a path and stick with it. See where it leads you. You strayed and it led you to me. Maybe try a different path?
Cheers,
Bob
***
The word, ” my ” is a possessive! it implies it belongs to me. According to Bob I have come around to “his “way of thinking. I don’t believe a practical , logical idea like building underground actually can belong to one person. Interesting enough that Bob in his realm of writing has never mentioned building underground before, then, as soon as someone mentions it, its his idea [lol].
As recent as the beginning of this year Bob was arguing that a moneyfree world will create over population! His logic being that people have small familys because they cant afford big familys and as socialism would bring about an abundance of goods, people would breed more. Despite contrary evidence that poverty and scarcity creates larger familys and the more affluent [greater access to goods and services] a society is the smaller the family.
Victim of myopic thinking, “Bobs” idea that we need 1 and a half acres of land just for fuel per person is just as ridiculous as his idea that creating a moneyfree society will create a population explosion. Most of the human inhabitants of the world live in hot and temperate climates and do not need the amount of fuel as those living in a cold climate such as ~Wales. BUT more importantly, we have at our disposal technology which means we don’t have to sit around carbon fires to keep warm , wind power , solar power and much more free energy technology will become available when we have kicked capitalism into the bucket. Also with a little imagination we don’t need 1 and acres each to feed ourselves , food growth can be layered and stacked, we can grow crop literally above other crops giving us even more room for wild habitat and other life forms [probably Bobs idea too]
Bob you keep asking me how im getting on with the strike project, i think you keep asking me this as a way of belittling me and my efforts and to some how prove that you are better than me. Bob I rarely indulge in navel gazing and do not plague forum members with continual references about myself and what I am doing……….. i.e. how im chopping wood and fixing my tractor etc etc etc you are so so self indulgent in your writings.
You know ,cos i told you that the reason i am helping promote strike 2012 is to use it as a vehicle to promote a moneyfree world, and since you ask @strike2012 [i am the account holder] has nearly 21,000 followers, thats 21,000 people and organizations i have reached out to in the last 10 months. I m also involved and supportive of the anonymous and occupy movements. And maybe next year i will move onto and grow into other projects.
Bob you are over 60 you have achieved absolutely nothing with your life , you sold most of your life to the work place and now occupy a tiny piece of land struggling to be self sufficient, spending years trying unsuccessfully to start a co-op which in your insanity believe will take over the world. You are a sad , lonely bullshitting old bugger who will die a lonely death.
Nice to hear from you Nick. I asked you about the strike thing because I genuinely wanted to know how it is going. I am glad you are getting a good response to it. And I am glad the occupy thing is going well. All these expressions of a desire for change are good. However, until we combine our talents in ways that will support us without having to go to capitalists continually to have our needs met we are not much further along. You might fondly believe that the people can simply take over capitalist farms and factories and everything will be well in the world. But wishing does not make it so. It only could make it so if the overwhelming majority of people in the world wished it at the same time and organised for it. But that is unlikely in the extreme without organising first around other things that people need, like food and fuel. And Nick, fuel might be more important in colder countries but it is also needed in hot countries too. Not just for air conditioning either but for powering the machinery to we all need, unless you want us all to go back to muscle power, along of course with wind and water power. And I did not say a moneyless economy will cause bigger families, I merely suggested the possibility. Moneylessness does not automatically solve every problem. We will see. I merely like to look at all the things that could go wrong and see if we can think of ways around problems before they arise. You seem to think I am against moneylessness. It is what has been driving me all these years. If I had only thought of getting rich I would be a lot richer now. I don’t see the point of you attacking me on every forum all the time. You don’t know me. We have never met. So why don’t you just lay off? Do your own thing. Leave me to do mine. I think we should have a vote. All those who think it is okay for Nick to keep attacking me please say so. Those who disagree please tell him to stop.
Cheers,
Bob
***
robert i, believe your belief is somewhat more objective here, if any change occurs you have to present that which middle income productive people will see as acceptable to them. the wealthy will never accept any change to what they see as their cash cow, you can count them out of the picture, the lower element have nothing to offer nor for the most part the intelligence to accept any change. if left to a vote they will sell the vote for a hand full of beans. certain ly every one is aware the g -8 summits, g-20 summits etc, are the monied elete, they are your objective -the enemy. it is dealing with them that you are aiming for. I believe most working persons would be open to change to cause justice to occur throughout the system they are oppressed by. not lawyers, banker, financiers, insurance industry etc, will oppose change, but sometimes a carrrier of news can break through a system and move things in the proper direction. In the united states sometimes a politician will try a public meeting, now what they do is have it mid day when working people cannot attend, of course unless they take off work. I ve done that to their consternation,. they do not like real issues, and issues of justice will inflame them ,, but that is good to give a good example of an issue to thrust forward is: compel state to reimburse for all burglary theft, vandalism, etc, since police reward themselves with stolen property and the victim is left damaged. Now how can they present to the public they are against justice? you have them in a corner, further you would then compel police to effect a job they have neglected for years. the reason lawyers like crime is it provides them with work, this is your enemy, if the police have to effect their job, it puts attorneys out of work and you are starting to effect your change. as the attorneys have to find productive work you will in time possibly gain an ally. it would still take years even if thousands would start this now. but better late than never
Chris,
Thank you for understanding what I am saying, not everyone can see it. Capitalists need workers more than workers need capitalists or capitalism. Workers can create a moneyless world but there is no actual organisation yet as a vehicle for that change. This is what I hope to create, but I cannot do it alone. I will do what I can but no-one should wait for me, just the same as no-one should wait for the overwhelming majority of workers to become socialists the way the Socialist Party (of great Britain) is waiting for.
***
I urge you all to do your own thing. Get involved. It is no crime to make money in this money system, but put it to good use. The best use is in bringing about a money-less, money-free or simply a free system in which we can all prosper.
Cheers,
Bob
***
there may be a method of achieving that, the primary move should be to get governement entities to have open public meetings, allow them some amount of freedom initially, then later hit them with truth and findings, i ll elaborate more at some future time
nick, but isn t your objective to die penniless like bob
As an excuse for self indulgence here are a couple of sites with photos of me and my messages
http://cheezburger.com/Shadowking64/lolz/View/2667633152
http://sedgemore.com/2009/04/city-spectacle-thrills-the-masses/
Which one are you Nick?
Cheers,
Bob
***
Solving the housing problem:
Hope this is not confusing.
EARTH:
Surface area of earth = 57,491,000 sq. mi.
In sq. ft this is equal to = 1.6 * (10 ^ 15) sq. ft
Population = 7 billions = 7*(10^12)
ONE BUILDING:
Floors = 100
Homes per floor = 25
Sq. ft per home = 4000
People per home = 4
Total people per building = 4*25*100=10,000 = 10^4
ONE HOUSING UNIT:
Give some extra land for parks, roads, business units, shopping areas etc.
One building = 25*4000 = 100,000 sq ft. of land on earth
Extra land = 4*100,000 = 400,000 sq ft.
RESULT:
Thus 400,000 sq. ft accommodate 10,000 people.
WHAT FRACTION USED:
To accommodate 7 billion we need = 7*(10^12)/(10^4) = 7*(10^8) housing units.
Land required = 400,000*7*(10^8) = 2.8 *(10^14) sq ft.
Fraction of the earth used =[2.8*(10^14)]/[1.6*(10^15)] = 17.5 percent
THE FACTORS THAT YOU CAN CONTROL:
Square feet per homes (4000), Extra land (4), number of floors (100)
The example shows that it is possible to house everybody in 10% of the land on earth.
Let me know if you find anything wrong in my calculations.
CAUTION:
Remember, in Money-less economy (MLE) everybody is free to build their own homes in their own way. Government should not create such a plan as discussed in this post. Since homes will not have any status symbol in MLE, people may want to build just enough for them. Thus the land requirements can significantly change. This calculation is to console people who are worried about the housing feasibility for all of us.
Subhendu,
At present there are about 266,918 square feet per person on the land and twice as much on the sea. So let us say half the land should be left wild and half cultivated and/or built on, 133,459 square feet each. So that is how much land we can use for a variety of uses per person. No need for high rise at all, if we distribute ourselves equally over the globe. No need for more than five levels. Only after five levels do we need elevators. Up to five levels we can use stairs or ramps. Ramps are better for wheels of various sorts. Ramps are better long and shallow, so we need to build long rather than high. A long building has another advantage that we can take advantage of, that it can be used to close off an area of land where we grow our food. We can encircle an area of land equal to the needs of the occupants of the building and this will protect the land from the animals that would otherwise feed on our food crop plants or cause other problems to those tending the crops (such as tigers and snakes). We can clear the land of such creatures without harming them (ahimsa) before starting to use the land once the building is complete. The animals can continue living in the larger area of land outside the food crop zone.
***
You say anyone can build their homes in their own way, but I would question this. we do not want inferior homes like those in Turkey that are right now lying on the bodies of the dead that were crushed by them. We need homes that do not kill us. There are simple ways to build safe homes but there would have to be some kind of control to make sure homes were built to certain standards. Don’t you agree? Also, by building in the way I suggest we can house everyone very well on less than one percent of the land we use, which is only half the total land.
***
I think your figure for the surface area of the Earth is wrong. I get 201,061,932, almost four times what you get. I used the equation 4pir2 (4 times pi times radius squared) And since your starting point seems to be incorrect I have not looked intently at the rest of it. In your system, if we have tower blocks (with some food grown vertically) the bulk of the food would presumably be grown in fields as it is now. How would you protect the crops and the workers?
***
Please check my figures for mistakes.
Cheers,
Bob
***
High rise residential buildings under construction:
122 floors – in Dubai – United Arab Emirates
117 floors – in Mumbai – India
Existing high rise residential buildings:
91 floors – in Melbourne – Australia
89 floors – in Dubai – United Arab Emirates
Thus we have the technology for design and maintenance of such structures.
Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_residential_buildings_in_the_world
Bob , thank you very much for the condracending, totally unnessersary lecture on the need to get ourselves organised. Now even those of very limited intellegence will surmise from my posts that i am involved in organisation and have little need for a lecture of the need for organization….Wake UP BOB , its YOU who needs a lecture about the need for organization, ITS YOU that wont work with other people , ITS YOU that doest do anything apart from trying to propergate your co-op collective overtakeing the world idea, and although years have past unfruitfull for you and no one has joined you………yet you still refuse to help other organizations, more often than not on the grounds that YOUR idea is better.
Get a life BOB, get real , look in the mirror!
And Bob stop bloody lying too me, if you dont want me attacking you stop bloody lying stop condrasending , start taking responsibility for your words.
You asked me about strike2012 because you believ3d i wasnt doing it and that all had failed and so you could score some sort of twisted points from that… yet you deny it and yet the simple proof is in your post, read it ;
By the way, what was your plan? How’s it going? It should be way ahead of mine since you’ve been there and done that, ah but you moved on, you didn’t stick with it did you? That’s important too you know. Decide on a path and stick with it. See where it leads you. You strayed and it led you to me. Maybe try a different path?
and Bob althouth no one has written in to ask me to continue attacking you.. no one has written in asking I desist from attacking you . And each time you are condracending and lie I will attack You
Nick,
It was you that used the term “moved on”. I simply quoted you. I haven’t been following the Strike 2012 and didn’t know how it was going, so I asked you. Who better to ask since you are the person organising it? I still doubt it will have the hoped for result, but I could be wrong. But there is a danger that anything resulting from any sort of street action will have no real substance and will not go on to give the people what they need. I am trying to get people to understand what they need to do to rectify the problems thrown up by the present system. Socialism might be the answer, but socialism is a long way off and we have to create an intermediate system to get us there. One that will feed us without us having to go to the capitalists all the time for all that we need. By the way, you can call it lecturing, but I don’t know what you know or what the other members know. I write for everyone here not just you. You started attacking me and my ideas as soon as you could when you first joined the WSM forum. This might have been because you were being attacked and you wanted to divert attention from yourself. Also you noticed that I was being attacked and your wolf like instinct kicked in. You saw me as an easy target and stuck the knife in and you have continually twisted it to make yourself look good, even though you say some pretty ridiculous things. I never thought the 2012 thing had failed. How could it since we are not in 2012 yet. Yes, I expect it to fail. That is I expect it to not get the sort of support it would need to achieve its stated aim. And I think if it succeeded it would create a flawed system that could do more harm than good. But as an expression of a desire for change it is a good thing. You tried to talk me into supporting it many months ago. And when I didn’t give it the support you wanted you started attacking me over it. Well I could do the same but it would be counter productive. If I fail to get my ideas over to others it is my fault. I will have to approach it in a different way. You think my ideas are crap. That is your prerogative. I think your ideas are less good than mine. That is my prerogative. But you think you can criticise me at the personal level when you don’t even know me. Well carry on. See how much I care.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Bob:
Land surface area of Earth:
I did not compute the land data I used. I took it from the Internet.
Following sites show almost the same number:
http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/8o.html
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/DanielChen.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_outlying_territories_by_total_area
Let me know if there are any other problems.
Sorry, I forgot to collect the source first time.
Bob,
When you wrote “You say anyone can build their homes in their own way”, I actually meant something else. There should always be national level rules and regulation just like we have now in all countries. I am not proposing to abandon everything that capitalism has given us.
When someone will try to build a house, then that person should hire a contractor. Since contractor is free in MLE why would you not hire one? The house building contractor is a specialized person; we should always use their skills. They will follow the civil engineering codes.
Building house is a complicated technology. We have not mastered it yet. You can see on TV every year so many houses in USA get burned down in fire, completely destroyed by flood, tornado, and hurricane. So USA also does not know how to build houses.
In USA capitalism wins whenever a house is destroyed. So the building designs are done to benefit everybody except the home owners. Every time a home is burned, the insurance premium goes up. The insurance companies make more money. The contractors get lot of jobs, they make money. The more building materials are sold, so the manufacturers make money. Fire fighters prove their need for existence and jobs. Home owners end up in larger debts, so banks make more money. Thus it is in the interest of capitalism to make poor quality products in all engineering processes. If you make a product that would last a life time then there is no money to make.
Capitalism is very dangerous and destroys all human values.
Thank you Subhendu, I now understand you better.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Bob , i said before you are waste of time becuase you do not listen. You just sent a me a post lecturing me on the need to get organised, you addressed that post to me. And now you are saying you were writing it to the other members. what is it with you ?
And why have you failed yourself in any attemp to organise? yet you decide we are in the need for lecturing on the subject?
I have never been able to have a proper debate with you becuase you always deny that what you said was what you said, or/and you pretend what you said had a different meaning.
2 of the outstanding attributes of most people in the money free movement is their alliance to the truth and their ability to accept the responsibilitys of the actions.
you fail miserable on both these fronts.
you cant even take resposibilty for what you say!
You are an embarrassement to the moneyfree movement.
You lie that when i first come on the wsm forum i started to attack you. when you returned to the WSM forum early this year I had been a member for 7 bloody years and the rest of what you write is pure fantasy.
you were attacked for 2 reasons
the biggest reason is you wasted peoples time. many good people would spend so much time patiently explaining things to you [like to a small child]. AND then you would totally ignore it , like you never heard or read what they said. You were wasting our time
Secondly you were attacked cos much of what you said was rubbish
Bob and you are missing the point strike2012 can not fail , myself alone have already spread the moneyfree idea out to 21,000 people accross the globe…. how can that be deem a failure , to me and to logic coming to a socialist reality dictates that first we need the numbers, we need people to start thinking and desiring socialism..
how many people are you turning on to socialism ..you have probally turned more people off socialism than you have on to it.
Nick,
Is money-less economy (MLE) same as socialism?
I do not know the definition of socialism. I did not live in a communist country also. What are the major features of socialism? How MLE and socialism are similar? What are their differences?
Subhendu,
Since Nick hasn’t replied to you I will answer you. Yes, the type of socialism of the WSM/SPGB is the same as MLE/RBE. Why not join the WSM forum and debate it there? Go to:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WSM_Forum/
See you there maybe.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Bob,
I tried to join WSM, but it did not work.
I may have some registration problem with Yahoo.
I will try later again.
Nick,
I am trying to turn people on to an intermediate step since socialism now is a step too far. I have made myself very clear on this. But the workers have made themselves clear by their inaction and lack of any sort of support that they agree with capitalism or any system that will pay their wages. So I have given in to their desire and will try to create paid positions for as many of them as are willing. At the same time I will inform them of various alternatives so that they can choose differently if they desire. Anything less is no real choice at all. We cannot eat pie in the sky.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Bob what you believe you do is not the point.
what is the point is [to me] that in the last few days , you addressed a post specificly to me, specificly in response to one of my posts..lecturing me on the need to organize, and when i pull you up on the obvios fact i dont need that lecture, you then cant even admit that the post was aimed at me but say it was aimed at other members.
futher in your next post you tell other members that as soon as i joined the wsm forum i started attacking you, which is a blatatant lie and you dont mention why you were being attacked [ie, every thread you joined you would twist around into an argument for your business co-op]. You failed to admit that I along with other long term members of the wsm forum actually left the forum cos we just coulnt stand the continual spamming from you on your desire to get people into your co-op idea. You also havnt mention that you had been on the wsm forum, as well as the world in common forum a few years previosly and had to leave both those forums becuase you had upset so many people.
Further why havnt you apolagised to me for address a post to me lecturing me on something i obviosly dont need to read? why havnt you apolagised to lying about me ? Why havnt you apolagised about you condersending post to me that congratulate me on coming round to YOUR[???] way of thinking?
Nick,
Why don’t you give it a rest? You are trying to portray me as evil incarnate and yourself as whiter than white. It simply isn’t so. I don’t know why you don’t just concentrate on solving the problems of this murderous capitalism that kills and maims millions. How many have I killed or maimed? None. Get your priorities right. I come on the forums to let everyone know it doesn’t have to be this way, that there are things we can do to save ourselves from the mayhem, but you concentrate more of your ire on me, when I am not the cause of the problems. The factual inaccuracy of what I said about when you joined the WSM forum might be obvious to you but I searched for the posts in question and couldn’t find them. But I remember that you were being attacked for what you wrote (as most people are there) as soon as you returned to that forum after a break. Is that more accurate? There are at least two sides to every story and we have heard yours. Now please either back up your claims about me or provide sufficient links so that readers can check for themselves. You certainly are not whiter than white. Nor are you an innovator. And the world needs innovators. Nor can you spell, but that is a minor matter. (more important in translating posts if anyone has difficulty with English or does not speak it at all). And do not forget that you started this row on this forum, as you have started it on other forums. I criticise ideas not people. You criticise people. It is like criticising capitalists instead of capitalism. Capitalists are just those who are successful within the capitalist system. They didn’t create capitalism. Some of them might be awful, terrible people, but so might some poor unsuccessful types. What are we here for, to criticise each other or to come up with solutions to the terrible problems that confront us all?
***
And by the way, I did not leave any forums, I am still there.
Cheers,
Bob
***
For anyone interested in my activity on another forum, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/worldincommon/message/8995
Cheers,
Bob
***
For anyone interested in Nick’s activity on the same forum, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/worldincommon/message/11084
Cheers,
Bob
***
bob firstly if you dont want to communicate with me then dont adress messages to me.
Secondly , I always get attacked on the wsm forum and i am proud of it. The SWm forum is a lively forum for debate the wsms members are mostly marxist and socialist , I am not !
I have never, never claimed to be an innovator.
The world needs all sorts of people , dreamers poets inventors workers singers , do you think you have more importance than me due to you being an innovator ? Are you an innovator?
backing up my claims.. heres an example.. you addressed a post to me in response to my post,lecturing me on the need to organise. i critised you for it, remember? you then replied that the post was aimed at the other forum readers.
anothe re example anyone can fish up themselves if they are bothered, bob obvoiusly you are
Time is one of the most precoius things that i have …I wasted littelly hours on you during our last debate on the wsm , to get you to understand some simple logic , when you finally agreed with what I said, i thought WOW! it hasnt been a waste of time . Then . you little shit , the very next day, after a little emotional out burstfrom , you returned to your previous posistion.
Further that,is your habit , to refuse to take resposiblity for what you say .. you always turn the subject away
Its very hard to forgive you for wasting my time.
Dear Friends,
Would you please comment on my solution approach for the housing problem?
Basically, I wanted to say that there is no crisis at this time.
My posts on this problem were:
November 11, 2011, at 3:21 pm
November 11, 2011, at 10:33 pm
If you agree with housing solution, then I will do some research on food crisis problem,
and see what I find.
Regards,
Subhendu
your housing solution does not take into account the human factor, single family dwellings with the large distance between them work best becaue even in our own families as ben franklin after 3 days fish and guest both stink. to form a civilization we have to take into account that 1 out of 4 persons belongs in a supervised living conditon, disabled elderly, mentally incompetent, chemical dependent, extreme sociopathic behaviors, severe mental iq impairment, and of course criminal and criminal insane. all those groups will by nature be in housing that would take minimal space, to not diminish quality of life all others should have the option of normal or diminished living quarters and it would change throughout their life times as when they are in child bearing and rearing ages and later in life when the are not even entertaing at home
Subhendu,
Please obtain copies of two books: Human Scale by Kirkpatrick Sale, and A Pattern Language, by Christopher Alexander et al. And read them both from cover to cover and absorb everything you read there. You will then see the world very differently and make different plans. At present you are following the bigness idea that Americans have run with for so long and so disastrously. 122 stories is not human scale, nor does it fit any useful pattern. Five floors is enough.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Thank you, Bob and Chris, for your comments on my solution for the housing problem.
The housing example shows that we can pretty comfortably house all the people of the world in only 20 percent of the land on earth. We have the technology now to do that. I show the existence of one solution. There is no need to provide all the details to NULL the hypothesis that says “WE HAVE A HOUSING CRISIS”.
I did not try to address your problems. All I wanted to establish is that – we do not need to think that we have population problem. The approach shows that there exists a meaningful solution. It does not need to provide all the details that you are looking for. I am not thinking of build a city that will address all kinds of housing problems for all kinds of people. That was not my objective.
The resource based economy (RBE) people want us to believe that we have a crisis in food and housing due to huge population. So they want to shift our focus from MLE to RBE, although the RBE includes MLE. I am opposed to the RBE distractions. I want to say MLE is sufficient and is capable of handling present problems that capitalism has created. That is, we do not need to worry about resources.
Once we establish that MLE is meaningful, feasible, and has solutions for all major problems, then we can go out to convince people and start doing practical things that Bob and Nick are doing.
Subhendu,
Yes we have the technology, but now we need the money too. It might sound nonsensical to use money to get rid of money but I cannot see any other way and I will pursue this line of thought to its obvious and logical conclusion. I don’t know about the others here. I doubt we all see things the same as each other. So may the best idea win.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Bob likes to reproduce the illusion and falsehood that we need money, so many of his posts repeat this message , which is totally detrimental to a moneyfree world and the moneyfree movement in general.
While we [in the moneyfree movement] are argueing that the need for money is an illusion Bob is reproducing and reenforcing the idea that we need money
We already have the technology and we already have shit loads of money! so why havnt we moved to a money free world…. because of the economics of money!
What we DONT need is idiots telling us we need money, what we DO need is the message that the money system is un needed and detrimental to our humanity and our earth. What we do need desperatly more than any money in the world is to get the moneyfree debate into main stream society. We can all help in this [not by arguing the need for money as Bob so often does]
What the hell is Bob on about… may the best idea win, its not a fXXxing competetion, where is his logical conclusion he preaches about….. the reproduction of the illusion that we need money
nick, so if there is to be an opportunity to make any kind of change you have to first notice what the achiles heal of the current system would then be. it is the nipping at the heal of the same that will in time cause others to start to ask questions. the current system is based on injustice, many with huge excesses are doing evil unjust things to warrant them to have that which they should not. Now to take an instance, in the US. latest presidential election they decided to adopt the socialized medical system, good idea or not, they made a dramatic move and had an extreme uphill battle, now, if instead you look at the system from simple view of justice in which no one could reasonably object to your goals then you have no battle and move in the direction which would then make more sense. so instead of a dramatic full system change, the proposal would then be: the individual robbed at the local store and shot or severely injured was a damaged person because of the failure of society to protect the civil liberty of this individual. that injured person should then not have the obligation of their hospitilization, lost wages, etc. etc. therfore society by our latest bill shall propose that the victims of these crimes shall have full restitution by the state for the injury. later the proposal could include the labor of the peppetrator used to reimburse also the injury. insurance is the stronghold as well as banking of the oppressive oligarchy. it s to nip away at there abuses one at a time on the populace, they will not do so on their own and the change is to place political correctness that they will not chime in against what is common sense decency
We [the worlds population] does not need money , and while Bob keeps waffling on about how we need money on moneyfree movement web sites he will indeed be a subject of peoples wrath, who are [afterall] doing the best to pull away the illusion that we cant exist without money.
Perhaps , bob is just using his words poorly, perhaps he means that if individuals have money then they can put that money to good use by promoting a money free world, I have no argument with that, i use money for web hosting , for getting to protests etc. If Bob is saying this [ and not promoting and arguing the need of money], if he is actually saying we can use money to help promote a moneyfree world then he can be eligible for the medal and honour of stating the obvious.
But , I know that Bob actually means we [the human race] cannot exist without money untill we exist without money? bob is creating and reproducing the myth that we need a monetary economy… good old Bob , inovator, rebel and revolutionary extrordanair
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSoA8qQW2uQ something for Bob and all others wishing to start communitys
Thank you for your input Nick, much appreciated. Will spread this message far and wide.
Danny
There is one huge problem with what Nick Tapping is saying, and that is how to buy the land we need for communities, without money. Those who own land at present, including me, will not give it away for free. You can come and make use of my land, for free, but how many other land owners will give you the same deal? If you pop along to the land auction when there is some land for sale near you, as I did, and put your hand up, as I did, and if you make the winning bid, then the auctioneer people will want 10% of the winning bid immediately and the balance 14 or 28 days later. I bid £25.000 for a quarter acre of industrial land seven years ago, but I didn’t have £25,000. So I had to borrow £11,700 to top up what I had. For seven years I have been paying £209 per month to pay back that loan and next month will be the end of that. If I had not borrowed £11,700 I could not have had the land. It is as simple as that. I also bought 6.39 acres of farm land in Devon for £16,000. I borrowed most of that from a friend. I was able to pay him back after my father died and left me about £28,000. (£150,000 between me and my three brothers and one sister) minus the solicitor costs. Plus his house which we two years later sold for £70,000 (which was also divided five ways). So I got about £14,000 of that. These might seem like huge sums to those here who just about scrape by, but they are peanuts compared to the trillions that will be needed to sort out the world’s problems. We do not need money to live, but we do need what money will buy, that cannot be had for free. I am willing to put my money where my mouth is. Nick can’t because he doesn’t have any. Oh and the land in Devon, I sold it for £20,000 and bought 6.25 acres of similar land for the same amount, but closer to where I live now. This is what we need to be clear about, that in a moneyfree world we will not need money, but in this present money world we need money to have a reasonable lifestyle and we will need a shit load of it to make it possible for everyone in the world to live well without money. Those who disagree with me can move in with Nick. Unlike Nick, I can distinguish between the present and the future. I have my head in the future but my feet on the ground in the present.
Cheers,
Bob
***
I would like to know, from each person here, how do you think this moneyfree world can come about? Does anyone have a solid plan of action that is scalable and realistic. I have shown you mine, so show me yours.
Cheers,
Bob
***
You show me yours…. bob you are worse than an pubescent , more infantile and I realise that you have a real big ego problem that or you are totally in delusion, probably both.
Bob your scattered brain idea of a plan is never going to get off the ground , no one is stupid enough to go into partnership with you and no one could bare working with you or for you, let alone live with you.. which is why, and because, you are a lonely, lying old man.
If we are to achieve a money free world , i doubt very much it will given to us by government or business. I can only foresee it happening by a general consensus of the world population.
We will certainly NOT reach that consensus by making statements such as “its impossible to live without money” [one of bobs well used statements], and i doubt very, very much that it will be achieved by bob the innovating messiahs collective co-ops.
Being honest i can NOT see us reaching a global consensus for a moneyfree world WITHOUT, firstly bringing the subject [moneyfree world] into main stream public debate. It seems the first logical step, and good people, the more you demand and shout publicly for a moneyfree world the nearer we come to getting that debate main stream………………….. bring it on
OK, Nick has thrown his hat into the ring. Anyone else? Does anyone else have anything constructive to add? Just how do we get this consensus of the world’s population? It is hard to get two people to agree, to anything, let alone seven billion of us. Nick certainly doesn’t agree with me. Can those, like Nick, who are in the know, reach the rest of the seven billion, for free? Or might it cost one penny per person? At 1p per person that would be £70,000,000. Or can it be done for a tenth of a penny per person, only seven million quid? Someone needs a lesson in how to cost a political program.
***
If it can be done for free then get on and do it. I think it will cost trillions and take 100 years. Prove me wrong… Do it for a fiver in a year.
***
I expect some will say there is no need for a campaign, that everyone will have an awakening, and that costs nothing. Well I hope they are right. but I suspect I’ll have to wait till Hell freezes over to see it. Some people just don’t realise what a tiny proportion of the human race we are. We are almost as rare as hens teeth. Everyone else wants MORE money, not NO money. We are seen as oddballs, in the extreme. Just ask Robert Wilkinson the reactions he gets when he discusses a money free world with his nearest and dearest. How do you get on with your own friends and family? Do they all want a money free world? I bet they don’t. I bet most of them think you are nuts. So how are you going to convince such people? I’ve told you a way to do it but if you listen to Nick’s lies you will think I am lying. I am doing my best but Nick is part of the Hecklers Union who cannot stand the truth.
Cheers,
Bob
***
There must have been a time when the first mammals evolved from small lizards or something, in the time of the dinosaurs. Then something happened to the dinosaurs that killed every last one that did not evolve into birds. All the giant reptiles we know as dinosaurs were replaced by small birds and mammals. We can take a lesson from this. We who are against the dinosaur of big capital and big states and big armies and big finance can start our own flexible co-ops that can supply us with all we need so that we do not have to go, cash in hand, to the superstore for our groceries. And when we do not feed the dinosaur that is capitalism, it will die. We do not have to get the agreement of everyone first. That would be like asking permission. We don’t need permission to do good. We just need to get on and do it. If we can do it with no funds then fair enough. But if we need to use funding then that is okay too. So does anyone care to say why they cannot do this? We here know our end goal, a money free world. So what is stopping you? Please explain about any successes or failures you might have had. Have you learned anything here or elsewhere about the nature of the problem before us, and about its solution(s)?
Cheers,
Bob
***
SPREADING THE MLE CONCEPT
Here is a way that may be tried by some energetic people with time and interest, which can help to popularize the MLE principles.
(a) Select a local public park, put some posters, saying the following kind of ideas:
(1) Learn about money-less economy (MLE).
(2) Know our central bank
(3) Why is economy bad etc.
(4) Announce a meeting time on a weekend requesting people to gather in that park
(b) Find at least two persons to speak on the poster subjects for 5-10 minutes.
(c) Encourage one or two people who have come to attend, to speak about their views.
(d) Continue the process for few weeks and then change to another park.
(e) Request the attendants to start similar process in other parks.
The method may or may not work depending on the exact plan details and the energy of organizers. It is not an Occupy movement. It is only for spreading the message, educating people about economy, central banking system, and the MLE.
I think I got the idea while reading some of your recent posts.
good core idea other than the poster in park, people seldom read or turn out for the like, but same idea but piggy back on political meeting already scheduled by controllers, take over meeting and present ideas croud will be inteseted in
Chris,
You have added a good point. Your idea gives many advantages also. As I have mentioned, the success will depend on the details of the process.
The posters can be of type that people of occupy-movement are using. They should remain in the park for about a week before the meeting. They should be in such a way that drive-by people can read them at their driving speeds.
Although merging it with other activities may help in organizational aspect, but MLE is a complex concept, and requires intense and careful discussions. The ideal situation will be in one-on-one basis. In case of more than 10 persons it may not provide a satisfactory result, at least during initial few meetings.
Internet is probably the best way, but we are not getting traffic. So we must spread all over in all existing sites, and create many more new sites in all countries. Greece, Italy, Spain are good places to spread. The Arab countries are even better, but I do not know how to pursue these approaches. People of Greece missed a great opportunity, when their past president declared for public referendum. But the money-power was quick to remove him.
Maybe, one of you should join the political party, get elected, and try to do what Papandreou tried. This may be the most effective way to do it from within.
Regards,
Subhendu
Subhendu,
Are you planning to do this yourself? I will be interested to know how it goes.
Cheers,
Bob
***
No Bob,
I am a total failure, a very lazy, and money-less man.
This is for persons like you, Nick and others who are active.
I am trying to do something similar on the internet. Even there I am not very active.
Unless God helps me I will be dead soon. May be in next life I will try, if things don’t change.
Subhendu,
I’m sorry to hear that you are not in good health, I hope you can be with us for some time. I doubt very much there is another life. I think this is the only one, and we have to make the most of it. Maybe I will try your parks idea some time. Maybe Nick will rise to the challenge too. Take care. Cheer up.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Subhendu, only time stands between us! May god help you. Live with an open mind die with an open mind. When people understand god there will be no religions!
Get in to the parks occupy all public space!
bob howes wrote, ” We don’t need permission to do good. We just need to get on and do it. If we can do it with no funds then fair enough. But if we need to use funding then that is okay too. So does anyone care to say why they cannot do this? We here know our end goal, a money free world. So what is stopping you?”.
Yes what is stopping you Bob?
Nick,
Nothing is stopping me, I am doing what I can alone. I am spending thousands doing it and I expect results. So far it has cost me in the region of £50,000 plus. And I will continue spending on the tools for change (as I see it). I am putting my money where my mouth is.
***
You are working in a completely different way and you might succeed. Time will tell which is the better approach (if there is a better approach). all approaches are valid. Don’t you understand that? Do you think that only my approach is wrong? It is those giving the red light to the efforts of others that can thwart progress. but I will not be put off by your attempts to do damage to what I am trying to do.
***
Do your worst.
And cheers to everyone else,
Bob
***
Bob, YOU put the red lights on every time you make a statement such as ” its impossible to live without money”, and when you dictate that we need to have an intermediate time [? before we can achieve a moneyfree world]
I also dont state your approach is wrong , I only state that no-one is interested in joining you or your plan. as for the supposed £50,000 you have spent on promoting a moneyfree world, what have been your results?
Bob, They say 90% of all conflict is due to misunderstanding , perhaps you can help me understand you better.
please answer these questions
You state it cost money for a political campaign, How much did the protesters pay for the Arab spring?
Do you believe our environment can last another 100 years of capitalism?
You stated, “we will need a shit load of it [money] to make it possible for everyone in the world to live well without money.” Can you explain what that means?
Can you tell me exactly what you have spent £50,000 on and why? and what results you have had?
You state, “do not forget that you started this row on this forum, as you have started it on other forums ” ., Can you please tell me where I have started rows on other forums with people apart from yourself?
Why do you believe that socialism is a step to far for people ?
What did you mean by the following ?,” ah but you moved on, you didn’t stick with it did you? That’s important too you know. Decide on a path and stick with it. See where it leads you. You strayed and it led you to me. Maybe try a different path?
What did you mean by the following and why did you assume I had only just come to the said idea? “Glad to see you are getting to where I was in my thinking in 1971″
You state about a moneyfree world , “Few do now, but i was one of the pioneers of such thinking.”. Do you have any proof of that?
You often talk about co-operation with other groups, what groups do you cooperate with at the moment and how?
You state you decided to change the world 51 years ago, what results have you had? How did spending most of your life as a wage slave help?
I have some unemployed friends in Carmarthen , can you give them a paid job?
Nick,
Before I answer any of your questions, please provide links for what you claim I have said. I don’t think I have ever said “it is impossible to live without money.” Please show exactly where I have said it or stop telling everyone that I did.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Bless you! you are all very polite.
I got this of the http://www.killmoney.net/
America has 3794101 square miles, a total of 105,773,465,318,400 square feet. That’s 105 TRILLION, 773 BILLION, 465 MILLION, 317 THOUSAND AND 400 square feet. If ALL SIX BILLION people in the world moved to America, each person would have 17628 square feet themselves. SEVENTEEN THOUSAND per person. Overpopulation is a myth. Kill money
But going back to something Chris commented on, about getting the moneyfree argument mainstream.. we also need mainstream to be aware of the injustices , atrocities and how money is not working for us, the Anonomous group started phase 1 of their plan , and phase 1 is to inform mainstream of just that. i believe the killmoney site was made in response to that call.
http://www.truththeory.org/
occupy wall street web site influence decision make your demands http://www.nycga.net/
bob is your memory really that bad? It [your statement that its impossible to live without money] sparked our row on the wsm forum nearly a year ago.
Yes Nick,
My memory is that bad so please provide links. Even one link would do. Or do you not want everyone to read what you wrote at that time? Speaking of time, I have to go pick someone up. We are in a loose co-operative venture to help him and me and I should be there already.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Bob I am not interested in your private life and one of the things that rile me is your habit of writing your daily activitys or your social reliationships. I dont care if you help some people , im not interested in your tractors or your chopping wood, what and where you watch on Tv
Do you think that you are the only petty capitalist that co-operates with others
I cant be bothered to scroll and read all the boring posts you have written to waste my time further, either you can answer my questions or you cant.
Please note that Im not attacking you , I am attacking what you write.
How many times do I have to say, Nick, that I don’t write only for your eyes, even if you think I do? If you will not provide a link to prove that you have not quoted me out of context, which I am certain you have, I will not answer a single stupid question of yours. As you say, you are not interested anyway. I am interested in making this world a better place, not in arguing with you. Do your own thing, I don’t care, just leave me to do mine. I seem to remember that you tried to talk me into backing your own scheme and didn’t like it when I refused. But maybe I remember wrongly. The SPGB claims that plans like mine distract people from the glorious revolution that they are hoping for and have been hoping for for over 100 years. I think they are afraid that I might have some success where they have had only failure. I cannot see that anyone here has any better chance of making the world a better place than I have, and that goes for all the other sites I visit or write on. I have a well worked out plan that has taken me a lifetime of study to arrive at, and my ideas get blown out of the water by those with no plan of their own. But we will see what we will see. So put your questions where the sun don’t shine until you provide at least a single link to prove your assertion that I have said it is impossible to live without money. It is perfectly possible, as proved by Mark Boyle, the Moneyless Man. But most people wouldn’t choose to live how Mark does.
Anyway, without going into boring details, I have better things to do than answer you.
Cheers (or not),
Bob
***
Bob you write on public forums, i am a member of the public , if you dont want to inter act with members of the public then dont write on public forums.
The biggest reason I attack your writing is because you set yourself up as an authority on social change , yet the content that you provide does not equate to anything well thought out. And there seem s to be absolutely no proof that you are involved in any social movement or have done anything at all apart from hide away. You often ask people to proof things , I am asking YOU to proof your credentials.
The content you do provide however points to the large possibility that you are a suffering of over self importance cum megalomania . And I have noticed that one of the negative effects that having to much money does to a person is puffing out the ego
Take your fear that the WSM is afraid that your project will succeed? Where is that coming from Bob? Do you really think the WSM or anyone else sees you as a threat?
You say that the SPGB is a failure, they turned me on to a lot of facts and turned on others too, so how is that a fail? You are a failure BOB! Simply because you have achieved nothing and you mind is blown away with you own self importance
Why when someone else has an idea do you pitch your idea against it and then finish with may the best idea win?
How do we measure success?
Is this a competion?
If someone has a plan to take over the world, [whether in a socialist way or capitalist way],megalomania is the concept usually applied.
Again I refer to the fact that your posts are riddled with storys about your personal life , NO ONE else does this Bob , why do you think that your personal life is that important to us ?
Nick,
You are one miserable bastard. Now piss off.
No cheers,
Bob
***
How do you equate im miserable Bob?
im quite a joyfull soul , I seek truth , unconditional love , live closely with loving supporting people and am very satisfied with my life.
No I wont pisss off Bob, Im here to stay and im keeping a watchfull eye on the bullshit that you give..have a nice day , remember we R all so interested in what you watch on tv and how you chop your wood. smiley smiley
Deep apolagys for bringing the tone down , but, i suppose this gives fact to the point that a moneyfree world is not utopian, even within a moneyfree world we will have clashes of ego, love lost and gained , sickness and death. This makes a moneyfree world real.
i sincerely hope, dream and pray, that many of you will take the idea and arguments for a moneyfree world to other sites and other spaces, and that we will in the end realise our goal.
all the best and deepest respect to all those in the moneyfree movement.
Love,
nick
Nick,
I do not think anyone in our group thinks that Moneyless Economy (MLE) is not feasible.
In fact if the government wants then it can secretly implement MLE without any problem. The exact same economy, which we have now, can be run in the exact same way. Since it is done secretly very few people will notice that MLE is on.
This is how it can be started. We will go to our work, just the way we are going now. We will also do our jobs in our corporations for the same number of hours that we are doing now. In USA it is 40 hours per week for all full time employees. In USA we get our pay checks deposited directly and electronically to our bank accounts. The process will continue in the same way. All our credit cards are electronic and are monitored and controlled by computers. All these things will remain same. However, government will secretly replace all money amounts by the number 40, the hours we work per week.
Since everything thing is electronic, nobody will be able to see the numbers, excepting the government and the organizations of the government, who has access to those computers.
All we will see is that there will be lot of jobs. Any time you apply for jobs, you will get the job. Whatever job you like, wherever you like, in your country, just go and apply and you will get it. Since there is no money no one will have to pay for your services, so they will hire you.
There are many obvious details. I did not want to describe them here for lack of space. But I am sure you know they can be solved. The assumption that I made is that the government is interested in implementing the MLE. That means Government is in full control of economy. That is a major assumption. But then it shows that MLE is feasible, there will be no chaos, no disruption of economic activities.
Nick,
I do not think anyone in our group thinks that Moneyless Economy (MLE) is not feasible.
In fact if the government wants then it can secretly implement MLE without any problem. The exact same economy, which we have now, can be run in the exact same way. Since it is done secretly very few people will notice that MLE is on.
This is how it can be started. We will go to our work, just the way we are going now. We will also do our jobs in our corporations for the same number of hours that we are doing now. In USA it is 40 hours per week for all full time employees. In USA we get our pay checks deposited directly and electronically to our bank accounts. The process will continue in the same way. All our credit cards are electronic and are monitored and controlled by computers. All these things will remain same. However, government will secretly replace all money amounts by the number 40, the hours we work per week.
Since everything thing is electronic, nobody will be able to see the numbers, excepting the government and the organizations of the government, who has access to those computers.
All we will see is that there will be lot of jobs. Any time you apply for jobs, you will get the job. Whatever job you like, wherever you like, in your country, just go and apply and you will get it. Since there is no money no one will have to pay for your services, so they will hire you.
There are many obvious details. I did not want to describe them here for lack of space. But I am sure you know they can be solved. The assumption I made is that the government is interested in implementing the MLE. That means Government is in full control of economy. That is a major assumption. But then it shows that MLE is feasible, there will be no chaos, no disruption of economic activities.
whether it is doable or not is somewhat irrelevent, the fact is that every government in the world is operated by the oligarchy for the oligarchy, if they implement anything you can be sure it is to benefit themselves just as it always has, notice the clearing of the camps of the protesters, it didn t benefit the oligarchy so they took action, the oligarchy will never alow while they are alive anything which devoides them of their priviledge and power, and presitge
Chris,
I have said in the past and in this website, that “suppressed community cannot by itself become free from the suppressors”. This has never happened in the history of our world. Suppressors have large number of supporters and they have guns to suppress any movement against them.
India did not become free from British imperialism by movement created by Gandhi. Indians will hate me when I say this. Similarly, African Americans or Black Slaves of USA were also not freed by Martin Luther King. South African blacks were also not freed by themselves.
This is where my Hitler concept came in. It took WWII to free 3 billion people of African and Asian colonies from Imperialism. Probably 10 million people gave their lives to free 3 billion. It was a huge sacrifice. Hitler came from the same suppressor community, with bigger power. I know Bob and most western people will not like the name of Hitler. But the facts behind the WWII remain valid. I have a feeling that the central Bank was behind the origin of WWII.
I think the same theory will have to work again. This time, a significantly bigger power, much bigger than Central banks, will be necessary. But we have to keep making movements, we have to create the environment, so that such a power evolves, and rescues us. Without any movements nothing can happen. So, please continue your work. Everything is integrated in our world. Things happen because of simultaneous interactions of many people around many different places and over multiple time periods.
It is very sad to see that the Occupy movements are failing around the world.
We are all at it in our own ways, a world without money is not entirely possible right now, as we do have all the technology, both automation and zero point energy that could create utopia for all on earth. What is lacking is simply WILL and the willingness (for a time) of the controlling dark cabal.
Has anyone watched the THRIVE movie? Here is a link to the ‘free’ video, for all the ‘fact sheets’, please visit http://www.thrivemovement.com.
http://www.napkinreligion.com/torus/
I have no doubt that the consciousness has shifted for the masses, and we are building up momentum to make all the necessary change, I have always been a hopeful and I know that I’ll get to see that ‘change’ and to participate in the movement of a moneyless world.
Without being too far fetched, we are also been helped and guided by our space family, people call them extraterrestrials. Some or most of you would probably think what the ET’s has anything to do with us, or even denied the existence of them. I would say unless you have had witness or peep beyond the walls that the dark cabal has constructed and has to a point, to conceal lots of ‘truth’ regarding the origin of the human species (I do hope you guys are more open minded enough or aware enough to know that most of what we been told about us is NOT TRUE).
I do rand a little bit more beyond the common norm, but that is how I see it, there are much more ‘truth’ when one care to look behind the walls and one would find so much are hidden from us. It is only recent years that people has come to the realization that the Federal Reserve is privately owned (many are still unaware of this).
I no longer look at the main stream news (until they’re no longer in control by the cabals) to update myself with knowledge otherwise is hidden. I have also learn much more about our divine nature of being, we are all multidimensional, we are not just a physical being with a thinking and reasoning brain. We are much more, we are both the sum and the part of all that is, we are the creator as well as the created. Everything that we think of will come the very creation (when focused), look around our world to see the evidence, need I say more.
Knowledge is power, so if the truths are concealed from us, then we would always willingly be the subservient slave that the cabal wanted us to be. All matter comes from the quantum world of anti matter (or the spirit world, some reject the word spirit, it is like rejecting one’s own identity) first before being manifested into our physical reality. Each one of us are using this daily but are not aware of this, whatever you have achieved to date is all coming from ‘thin air’, your very thoughts is the powerhouse of creation, and this is the simple proof that you are also a creator in your own right, only you use a very small percentage because of your awareness of your powers.
Call me mad or crazy as you like, for each of us has our own truth and I’m sharing you all with mine. I wish you all to live in peace and begin to realize the powerful being that you all are, together we make changes and we change our history.
Best,
Danny
Danny,
I watched your video. It is very long. May be all people should watch when they get time, in small intervals. The author seems to be honest and sincere. But somehow I did not think his solutions are well thought out. Consider for example what he said about the central bank (CB) at his following page:
http://thrivemovement.com/sector_solutions?tags=solutions-economics
It says: “Dismantling the Federal Reserve will likely require mass mobilization against practices and an education campaign exposing its failures”
This cannot work. People will not be able to overthrow CB. Any such movement will be destroyed by money power. The Occupy movement failed for the same reason. As I said, movements by Gandhi, Martin Luther King failed to provide results.
Ganhdi, Martin Luther King and JFK had the idea but they were in the wrong era, if we don’t believe to overthrow CB, then it will not happen. As we begin to create with a dream and hope, I am very sure that we are in the flow and we have the ‘right’ energy behind us now, this is what 2012 and the Mayan calendar is all about.
We are so much engrossed in the affairs within the walls constructed by the negative ones who’s interest is to serve the self, that most cannot see beyond these confinements. Thank goodness that more are waking up and realising all the lies and deceit which is begin to spread and become common knowledge.
Like I said, I’m a hopeful and I know change are underway, it is sad to see Bob and Nick have such animosity towards each other, as in order for the moneyless society to function, we need to first develop love and compassion, we need to have room to allow growth and forgiveness. We need to know that we are much more than our physicality and that we are much more than just human, here is something I wrote and posted up on my facebook:
____________________________________________________
IT’S ABOUT TIME TO WAKE UP
We are free souls whom has agreed to take the density test in life of duality. We are rapidly coming to the end of this cycle of tests and now many are becoming aware of their divine nature of being, realizing we are much more than human.
We are willingly to accept the insane laws created by the negatives whom has the agenda and interests of serving to the self. Unconsciously we are willingly to become the slave of their idea and play their game without question of their insidious system of control.
Take away our confined human mindset, we will come to the realization that we could live in a world without the need for money, without the need of the human law, this would be replaced with common sense and the natural law of physics – karma. We would no longer have the need for a higher authority which was setup by the self serving rulers millennia ago, which is ingrained deeply in our psyche.
We can revert all the systematic controls that is destroying our natural resources, poisoning our minds,our water and our natural habitat in the name of the profit. How could we allow the few to take control and to allow the killing of the innocent.
Ultimately, we are all equal and the same, each one of us have our own sovereignty, yet we accepted the indoctrinations unconsciously to accept our given roles which we call class in our so call civilized society.
Isn’t it time for us now to wake up from our sleeps and to see all that we have lead to believed is nothing but a lie and a matrix with only one outcome – self annihilation.
The illusion may seem real, but all you have to do is to reason with yourself that no one could ever take any money, fame or material with them when their life ends to realize it is all but a hallucination.
Know this, each one of us is the creator itself, for each one of us is the sum and the part of all that is, we are one and the same, we are all in the game of unconsciousness to find our way back to the source.
It’s never too late to wake up to the full consciousness and awareness of our true soul identity, this would allow our spiritual nature to rule our hearts and minds whilst in our human form.
Act now and change our insidious habits of the unconscious self confinement and conformities, we could still make our world a utopia for all other human souls to live in love and peace if we are willing.
__________________________________________________________________________
No one need to agree with me on this, but I hope it’s a good reference to start off with.
All the best,
Danny
Danny,
You said – “if we don’t believe to overthrow CB, then it will not happen.” I believe in this result, this has to happen, and I think we all believe, but I do not believe in the process that people movement will make it happen. Money power is much bigger than power of people.
I am glad that you have mentioned about 2012 and Mayan calender. I have a hidden wish that this will happen. The concept does not say though how it will happen, if it is very violent then many of us may not survive after that event.
I also believe in the theory of soul and reincarnations. If we do not understand that as a law of nature, the life and the world cannot be understood at its fullest extent. Just like without the knowledge of CB we cannot understand the role of money, so is the reincarnation to life and society. If any one wants a proof of reincarnation let me know or just search internet for its proof.
You probably know that both Christianity and Islam believed in reincarnation at one time in their history. But after that time money power took over them and deleted the concept from their holy books. Interested persons may want to read the respective chapters from “Reincarnation Controversy” book by Steven Rosen.
Best regards,
Subhendu
Hi Subhendu,
We are actually going through the ascension process as we speak, only that if we look outside the walls of our confinement that we would ‘see’ the evidence. The earth’s own vibration has moved up since the early 80′s, from 7.8 hz to 14 hz (Shumann’s resonance) and it’s still rising, this literally means our consciousness too is on the rise.
I’m a believer of reincarnation, hence I say that we are more than human, it is until one accept that we are more than our physical one cannot sense of to comprehend our spirituality. We cannot always judge the outcome just by looking at the physical or on the surface, for everything that manifested on the physical plane actually comes from the spiritual realm.
One thing that I’m certain beyond doubt is the selfishness and self serving negative energy of the old is to be replaced my the positive collective unity consciousness, our discussion here is the fine example of this new changing energy that has changed much of peoples awareness.
Light is many times more powerful than the dark energies, so it may seem that nothing is happening on the surface, but deep down we know something uncanny is being developed. I don’t believe humanity are all negative, if that is the case, we could already have wiped ourselves off this planet.
Best,
Danny
some are having success on this level if the numberof persons magnify the situation then the federal reserve wil have to leave the scene rathar quickly, the federal reserve isthe reason the income tax existsand people are already paying their claimed tax debts with personally made notes, which if refused clears the debt if accepted they must be redemed in 45 day, if redeemed, they are given an identical note with new redemption date, just as the federal reserve notes are not redeamable in any thing of substance so the same with the personal note, therefore it appears that we can erraadicate this evil from amongst us, I would believe that the same situation exist in britin, canada australia as all the problems are mirrored likewise here, it is evident that some hidden power controls all from above, but if the cards start to fall we can bring down their whole house. as for the controllers, I unlike other believe there is no punishment to harsh, I do not believe in rehabilitation
Thats right mate , there must be a 100 ways and more!
Heres another http://worldwidestrike2012.blogspot.com/
One of the points i have tried to make with Bob is its not a case of winning or who idea is better but its about getting the word out there
Getting people to think
Dream
Wish
Moneyfree world
You should at least blog your idea and promote your blog,
The more stuff out there the louder we become
Some ideas simply will not work. Other ideas stand a chance of working. Problem is that we cannot easily know beforehand one from the other. I largely agree with the envisaged end result of what the WSM/SPGB is aiming for but I don’t see any possibility of it happening in the way they seem to think it might. They say it can only come about if/when the overwhelming majority of workers over the entire world agree on it. How likely is that without some unspecified mechanism? We will need to specify a mechanism and then dedicate ourselves to it in order to make it happen. At any rate this is my approach. I have specified a method, here and elsewhere. Now I am getting on with it and in doing so am spending much more time away from the computer. If you want to do it my way, email me: robertcircle1 (at) yahoo.co.uk
Otherwise, do it your way, and the best of British luck to all.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Bob just doesnt get it , does he?
Danny its impossible to get the will of the people to desire a moneyfree world when most people have never heard of the idea of a moneyfree world. I think thats our biggest problem at the moment, getting the idea main stream. Still we do what we can , no matter how humble.
I find in my excursions that in general the idea [moneyfree world] is greeted positively , and the main question is , ” what would a moneyfree society look like?” . So with that in mind i urge all of you writers to blog and circulate your vision of how a moneyfree world might look. The second most common question i am asked is, “how can we get there?” Well thats anybodys guess and i think what history teaches us is, ” we just don’t know” [exception of Bob Howe that is]. But we do know that we wont get there as long as main stream remain ignorant of the moneyfree concept………. so preachers preach , writers write , talkers talk, we are spreading the word
And i know that if i am expounding co-ops and mutualism or other reformist ideas, then I am not expounding a moneyfree world
Chris , moneyfree only becomes doable [in my humble opinion] when the majority of us desire it. When [and if] we reach that majority we will be too many for the oligaths to handle, so dont worry,be happy
bob wrote, ” Some ideas simply will not work. Other ideas stand a chance of working”
Bob i have asked you before what you mean by this, how do we measure or define or come to an opinion that an idea has worked or is working? I just dont understand it…… if 1 talks to someone and turn them on to the idea of a moneyfree world has that worked?
We need to spread awareness of a moneyfree world and i think as long as we are doing this we are , “working”!
you have absolutly no idea or proof that your idea will get off the ground or survive let alone radically change global perceptions
Further, how can people like me [thats the global majority] participate in your plan , we have no money for investment , we will not chance moving our homes, our familys and coming to join a commune, specially if its headed by someone like you , and it offers no secure future.
If we are talking how to spread the idea of moneyfre , how we grow and develop the idea than we must come up with ideas that are inclusive , things we can all do, and most of us Bob, cannot join you , best of luck….. and [in your own words].piss off
Nick,
Since you are still addressing yourself to me and asking what are reasonable questions I will answer them, but please do not twist my answers to suit your meaning. When I speak of ideas working or not working I am talking about the means to the end rather than the end itself. We here are determined to see the end of the money system and not without good reason. How we get there is another matter. I have my own plan that I started developing before I knew anyone else was in the slightest bit interested. I didn’t know about the SPGB back in the 1960s. I just knew that money caused all sorts of bad effects. I am not asking anyone here to join me in my commune. 20 years ago I was asking exactly that and got very little response. That was an idea that didn’t work. Various ideas have not worked for me, so I drop them and try a different approach. Wouldn’t anyone? What I am suggesting is that you try to work out your own plan of action that might work for you. You say you don’t have money to invest. Why not? What have you done with it all? Or do you have no wages and no social security benefits? Or are you saying you have to spend all you get in order to buy your food, your clothes and pay your rent and so on? These are things that I do differently and thereby save money. And I can teach others to do likewise, if they want to learn. You can stay where you are and use certain techniques to boost your savings. You won’t get rich quickly, but you can put a little by for investment in yourself. This is what I am talking about, investing in ourselves and denying the capitalists their profits as much as we are able. It took me decades to get to the point where I could own my own land, but now I am willing to share it with others who are willing to put in some effort in order to get the reward. That is to say, the food that we grow, for free. Anyone that follows my plan in my part of the country or in some other part or a different country can get the rewards. And in doing so prove to the world that living money free is not just an idea, but a reality. That we cannot easily go totally money free immediately is obvious to all of us, but we can cut down on certain expenses and by working together and sharing ideas we can eventually cut our costs down to zero. As a group of affiliates we can target the worst companies to boycott, like Coca Cola, Monsanto and the likes. We can simply not buy any of their products and tell the world why. While we are few in number this will not affect their profits, but as we grow it will affects their profits significantly. I am talking about when there are millions of us and we are not only not buying their products but are making our own rival products and taking some of their sales. You see, this is the point, that until the world is ready to go money free we can sell our products without compromising our aims. We could sell soft drinks, just as Coca Cola does. But not only that, we can also put our web address on the bottle so that our customers can watch our videos and find out how much more ethical we are and find out how they can join us and benefit themselves in the short and medium terms as well as in the long term. With the SPGB plan (if you can call it that) they ignore all but the long term, and that is simply unattractive to the majority of workers who they are relying on to bring about the revolution they are hoping for. I saw some clothes as I drove to Maesteg the other day, scattered along the edge of the road, so next time I drove along there I stopped and picked each one up. They were mostly trousers that are my size. How many pounds did I save by not having to buy jeans? I don’t know because the last time I bought jeans they cost me fourteen shillings a pair. I have bought no clothes since 1978 and no shoes since 1979. And I have far too many clothes, including many that are brand new. We live in a throw away world and we can take advantage of that any time we choose. My plan includes regularising this in various ways including running our own clothes recycling companies so that we can pick out the ones we need ourselves and also new clothes manufacturing that will pay money but also supply us with free clothes. All these businesses must be based on profit sharing and essentially what amounts to income sharing and capital sharing in which group profits are spent partly on what benefits the whole group and also allied groups, such as land in various places that afford us the opportunity of getting away for a break and doing something differently. In the case of a group based in the UK where we get pretty cool weather a lot of the time I would choose Portugal as a place to overwinter in a milder climate and harvest the pomegranates and figs and other foods that don’t grow so good in the UK. We could also buy land in Morocco where we could grow more tropical foods and spend time in much warmer weather when we are fed up of the cold and the damp. We can collectively buy or build our own seagoing craft in order to get from the UK to warmer climes. Also we can build our own buses that are free to fuel because they run on wood or kitchen waste plus wind. This is just a tiny insight into the plan. Anyone interested knows how to get in touch. I can only do so much alone. If you want to start building a money free economy then email me to discuss it. And though most of you cannot join me you can join in with the plan in some way or other. First though you need to get your own thinking in order. Everyone criticises the plans put forward by visionaries but few become visionaries. Is that because they fear criticism? I thrive on it, so long as the critic is fair in their criticisms. I can learn something from fair criticism raised by those who have first of all taken the trouble to understand the vision and not simply looked for chinks in the armour. If you really want a money free world then you will have to work for it, as I am doing, when the rain lets up.
Cheers,
Bob
***
I hate you Bob and this is the biggest reason , to answer your stupid ridiculous self masterbating posts , take up to much time that will be totally wasted cos you still wouldnt understand shit
And i hate you more because im stupid enough to waste my time in answering your
Stupid purile post that you have addressed to me but 95% of it is [as you know totally unapplicable] written for wider audience
Bob , just plain blood courtesy dictate , i give up
Bob Say //
When I speak of ideas working or not working I am talking about the means to the end rather than the end itself. We here are determined to see the end of the money system and not without good reason. How we get there is another matter. I have my own plan that I started developing before I knew anyone else was in the slightest bit interested.//
Nick says why do I need to know that
Been spending 50 years developing his idea , still not done it
Crap idea , very dodgy , 70% of all new businesses go under within 3 years, co-ops have an even higher percentage, or bob gotta another business plan
Bo has business sence enough for hard nose business, hasn’t come across as a business man
//I didn’t know about the SPGB back in the 1960s. I just knew that money caused all sorts of bad effects. I am not asking anyone here to join me in my commune. 20 years ago I was asking exactly that and got very little response. That was an idea that didn’t work. Various ideas have not worked for me, so I drop them and try a different approach. Wouldn’t anyone? What I am suggesting is that you try to work out your own plan of action that might work for you. //
So fuck bob whats you on about , you are addressing this letter to me, are you deliberately trying to tell me stuff that you know I know already, stuff that I actually live , by you!, some petty failure of a capitalist
// You say you don’t have money to invest. Why not? //
What even thinks you can ask personal questions about anyone s personal finances on any public platform ?
//What have you done with it all? //
//Or do you have no wages and no social security benefits? //
// Or are you saying you have to spend all you get in order to buy your food, your clothes and pay your rent and so on?//
Like Bob you are so fucking un cool and impolite, demanding personal financial information from me , I realy cant believe it
//These are things that I do differently and thereby save money. //
I know for sure I could teach bob a lot more And I can teach others to do likewise, if they want to learn.
Bob im sure you are going to die a lonely old man
// You can stay where you are and use certain techniques to boost your savings. You won’t get rich quickly, but you can put a little by for investment in yourself. This is what I am talking about, investing in ourselves and denying the capitalists their profits as much as we are able. It took me decades to get to the point where I could own my own land, but now I am willing to share it with others who are willing to put in some effort in order to get the reward. That is to say, the food that we grow, for free. Anyone that follows my plan in my part of the country or in some other part or a different country can get the rewards. And in doing so prove to the world that living money free is not just an idea, but a reality. //
DEER how can having money be moneyfree? Twat , who the fuck would want to live with you bob?
//That we cannot easily go totally money free immediately is obvious to all of us,//
The only things obvious are , we don’t know that we will ever have a moneyfree world, and we don’t know how it might happen. ITS JUST A FUCKIN DREAM And as I have wasted my time and others wasted their time telling you before, just 2 posts ago we can , we can go straight to a moneyfree society in a number of different ways depending on different social factors , so its not obvious and why do you say its obvious when its not , when as you fuckin well know , it’s a contentuis subject. Do we have to go all through it again? Do you want that?
I swear if I ever meet you in person its going to be difficult not to spit in your face
You want a back door method, you think that your plan, which no-one will join”¦ and the biggest reason it wont work is YOU , you bob , you read like a right tosser to say the least,
You truly believe you are going to change the world
One of the big problems you have bob is in the 60s you should have been getting it down instead of working then you might of learn something , the rest of us have learnt it and moved on , bye bye
// but we can cut down on certain expenses and by working together and sharing ideas we can eventually cut our costs down to zero. As a group of affiliates we can target the worst companies to boycott, like Coca Cola, Monsanto and the likes. We can simply not buy any of their products and tell the world why. While we are few in number this will not affect their profits, but as we grow it will affects their profits significantly. I am talking about when there are millions of us and we are not only not buying their products but are making our own rival products and taking some of their sales. You see, this is the point, that until the world is ready to go money free we can sell our products without compromising our aims. We could sell soft drinks, just as Coca Cola does. But not only that, we can also put our web address on the bottle so that our customers can watch our videos and find out how much more ethical we are and find out how they can join us and benefit themselves in the short and medium terms as well as in the long term. With the SPGB plan (if you can call it that) they ignore all but the long term, and that is simply unattractive to the majority of workers who they are relying on to bring about the revolution they are hoping for. I saw some clothes as I drove to Maesteg the other day, scattered along the edge of the road, so next time I drove along there I stopped and picked each one up. They were mostly trousers that are my size. How many pounds did I save by not having to buy jeans? I don’t know because the last time I bought jeans they cost me fourteen shillings a pair. I have bought no clothes since 1978 and no shoes since 1979. And I have far too many clothes, including many that are brand new. We live in a throw away world and we can take advantage of that any time we choose. My plan includes regularising this in various ways including running our own clothes recycling companies so that we can pick out the ones we need ourselves and also new clothes manufacturing that will pay money but also supply us with free clothes. All these businesses must be based on profit sharing and essentially what amounts to income sharing and capital sharing in which group profits are spent partly on what benefits the whole group and also allied groups, such as land in various places that afford us the opportunity of getting away for a break and doing something differently. In the case of a group based in the UK where we get pretty cool weather a lot of the time I would choose Portugal as a place to overwinter in a milder climate and harvest the pomegranates and figs and other foods that don’t grow so good in the UK. We could also buy land in Morocco where we could grow more tropical foods and spend time in much warmer weather when we are fed up of the cold and the damp. We can collectively buy or build our own seagoing craft in order to get from the UK to warmer climes. Also we can build our own buses that are free to fuel because they run on wood or kitchen waste plus wind. This is just a tiny insight into the plan. Anyone interested knows how to get in touch. I can only do so much alone. If you want to start building a money free economy then email me to discuss it. And though most of you cannot join me you can join in with the plan in some way or other. First though you need to get your own thinking in order. Everyone criticises the plans put forward by visionaries but few become visionaries. Is that because they fear criticism? I thrive on it, so long as the critic is fair in their criticisms. I can learn something from fair criticism raised by those who have first of all taken the trouble to understand the vision and not simply looked for chinks in the armour. If you really want a money free world then you will have to work for it, as I am doing, when the rain lets up.
//Bob the self deluded super her0//
Nick,
I think you need professional help. Bitter and twisted springs to mind. Why do you waste your time? Look up (in Wikipedia or elsewhere) the meaning of projection.
Bob
***
No just unbelievably angry at You , i have asked you numerous times not to address your post to me, you could at least have the decency to respect that as you know how much communicating with you upsets me.
what was the point of the long piddly post bob ?
you added absolutly, nothing new to this discussion , what was the point in it?
you patronised me , you hav the fuckin nerve to presume you can teach me something and top it all you invite me to live with you [when you know i despise you] , and then demand i give you personal information about my finances.
So what was that post aimed to produce?, i can only guess that you aimed to annoy me … there seems no other point to it.
Bob i like to write facts , these are facts,you completley fail to understand or ignore what others are writing, you simply ignore points , you dont answer questions and you cannot reckonize contradictions in your theory even when they are pointed out to you,
you wasted most of your life working , you achieved vey little from it apart from a patchy bit of rocky land in an area most people dont want to live, you like to pretend you are a commune but no one lives with you, you have been harping on for years how your plans are going to change the world [yet you do nothing], you make out that you are the godfather of the modern day moneyfree movement , though you have never promoted a moneyfree idea outside of your business ideas
And i definetly will spit in your face when i see you for wasting my time , for insulting me and for all the useless garbage you fill up moneyfree discussion boards with
and Bob when i watch a politician on telly spouting bullshit it can make me angry , angry is not twisted and bitter , often we have a right to be angry , angry does not equate to bitter and twisted. So please , please , keep you incorrect assumptions to yourself
when i ask you NOT to address posts to me and then you ignore me and address posts to me it makes me angry,
when you have the rudeness to ask me about my personal finances on a public forum it makes me angry
when you have the audacity to presume you can help me , it makes me angry.
when you write piddling long posts on moneyfree discussion boards that add absolutly nothing new to the subject it makes me angry
When i keep telling you the same things and you keep ignoring me it makes me angry
I am sorry that you cannot understand any of the above , do you suffer from autism?
One thing i find missing in the moneyfree movement and i do intend to do something about it and hope others of you will too, is the lack of practical working visions of how a money free society would work , what it might look like , its democracies , its communitys , what life might be like for the individual, what life options they might have compared to the life option that exist in capital.etc etc
yes it is sad that there is anomisity between me and bob this could be drasticly reduced if he didnt keep addressing his posts to me , perhaps some of you could ask him not to it, he completley ignores my requests
you are right chris , these so called “national or state treasuries” are private banks that control the world or at least finance…. and if you control the finance you have a LOT of control. Many of the shareholders of the state/national treasuries are the same , usually unheard of holding companys who share holders are familys , like you get it , the rothchilds etc unimaginable rich and powerfull familys, groups, cabals and individuals , these are the real brokers,and they have held on to world power for centuries, often at odds with eachother but united in the power vs us. Your average politician like Obahama or Cameron are insignifigant little pawns. There will be a critical mass Chris when enough people know and DONT accept that these cabals and familys should rule the world
Then we might rise up, we can be easily duped though and end up with another form of money that will enslaves us once again……….demand an end to all money
Nick,
You said it right “Your average politician like Obahama or Cameron are insignifigant little pawns”. Even the Federal Reserve chairman, Ben Bernanke is also a pawn. Ben Bernanke, an ex-professor of economics at Princeton University, was the first person to publish a paper saying how the Fed is manipulating economy. There he says [1] the following – “In all cases we obtain plausible results which suggest that the Fed was purposefully manipulating the funds rate during the pre-1979 period an observation that is consistent with what the Fed claims to have been doing.” Yet under his chairmanship of the Fed, the Bloomberg news claims [2] in a law suit against the Fed, that the Fed spent $12.8 trillion as the bailout money. The GDP during 2008 was $14.2 trillion. Thus Ben could not stop inflation by printing money. Imagine that, how much money they can print secretly! This shows that money is free at the source. Yet, they will not give it to the people of Greece.
In the following 5 minutes video [3] you will see that Milton Friedman, a Nobel Laureate in economics, is giving a hint that a Head of the central bank can be killed if he goes against the interests of the owners. It also shows how the Fed created 1930 recession in USA.
[1] Bernanke, B. S., & Blinder, A. S., (1992), The federal funds rate and the channels of monetary transmission, Am. Econ. Rev., Vol 82, No. 4, pp. 901-921
[2] Pittman, M., & Ivry, B., (2009), Financial Rescue Nears GDP as Pledges Top $12.8 Trillion (Update1), Bloomberg, March 31
[3] Milton Friedman: The Purpose of the Federal Reserve
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V5OP-VmXgE
Best regards,
Subhendu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfaUIqN14R8&feature=share Im sure some of you will like this
Do we have world food crisis?
“The United Nations said Wednesday that about 1.3 billion tons of food is lost or wasted every year, which amounts to roughly one third of all the food produced for human consumption”.
Source – http://money.cnn.com/2011/05/11/news/economy/world_squanders_food/index.htm
Thus total food production = 1.3*3 =3.9 = 4 Billon tons approximately per year.
There are two conversion factors: 1 Short Ton = 2000 Pounds, 1 Metric Ton = 2205 Pounds.
Some say 1 Billion = 10^9 and some others say 1 Billion = 10^12. It does not matter which one I use in this specific case.
Using the smaller number we get 4*(10^12) tons = 8000*(10^12) Lbs. of food every year.
Thus food per person, out of 7 billion = 8000/7 Lbs = 1142 Lbs per person per year.
Then food per day = 1142/365 = 3.128 = 3 Lbs approximately per day per person.
Even 2 pounds should be enough food for survival for everybody in the world. Thus we can safely say that at present we produce enough food to prevent death by starvation of anyone in the world. Therefore there is no threat for moneyless economy to face an immediate food crisis.
I could not find very good data on world food production. If you can, please let me know or post it here. My email address is subhendu.das@excite.com
Your analysis of the numbers is way too simplistic. You need to factor in where the food is produced and where it needs to go. Then you need to account for different spoilage rates and put in place distribution models that route foods that rot faster more quickly. Inherent in the distribution is the need to factor in fuel consumption for various modes of transport and weigh this against the potential greenhouse gas problems. Then there is the whole problem of which fuels to use and their production/consumption.
On top of all this are the countless political minefields inherent in transporting food and making sure it gets to where it needs to go with a minimum of piracy/bribes/tariffs, etc.
Food distribution is not a simple problem and it is pretty much meaningless to take a big number and divide it equally amongst the world’s population.
further, tribal people have considerably different social strategies and its not the right of other to impose on them methods that they seem to be in another groups best interest, even if it indeed seems so, Africa for instance is both tribal and nomadic for the most part. if the problem is not sollible by other than what we see as starvation, then still leave them alone. after all starvation is used in the medical field of homeopathy to cure a number of diseases, they may have solutions to problems that we don t because of their methods of living
further, tribal people have considerably different social strategies and its not the right of other to impose on them methods that they seem to be in another groups best interest, even if it indeed seems so, Africa for instance is both tribal and nomadic for the most part. if the problem is not sollivable by other than what we see as starvation, then still leave them alone. after all starvation is used in the medical field of homeopathy to cure a number of diseases, they may have solutions to problems that we don t because of their methods of living
KT,
You are right, my method is obviously too simplistic. But you cannot do high level as well as detailed low level analysis in half a page posting. You have to make a choice.
Moreover my problem was the hypothesis – THERE IS FOOD CRISIS.
I am saying no, there is none. We do not have to kill people to solve world food problem. I have shown we can produce 3 pounds of food per person. If you consider all the factors that you have mentioned, and if they reduce the number to 2 pounds, per person, per day, then still we do not have food crisis.
So, in one sense I have considered your factors, because I used the number 2 Lbs in my previous analysis. Moreover the issue is – can we produce? Management of distribution is a separate problem. How to produce and where to produce are also not the issue here. I have considered a very small problem, so that half a page is enough.
As we go to higher level problems, it must become abstract, and has to assume all the low level details are known or can be solved. As an example – We want to use Unmanned Air Vehicles (UAV) in future wars. We want to make strategic plans for that. In this plan, we cannot obviously raise the issue of what kind of microprocessor we should use in the navigation computer of the UAV. We assume, that problem can be solved or has been solved by the responsible parties.
Hope my objective is clear now.
Lets agree on certain principles. Lets start by analysing 3 conceptual ideals that as a society we actively embrace. Freedom , Democracy, Equality
Freedom, having the choice to participate and not to participate , having the right to speak freely to move freely to act freely
Democracy , participative systems designed to create decisions for groups of people. Democracy is measured by the equality of access to the decision making processes by all its members. Using this measurement , we quickly ascertain that our so called democratic system that allows the majority of its citizens only to put a X in a box every 4 years is not at all democratic.
Equality, the belief that we have all have equal right and responsibility to the earth and its resources. Equality is measured by equality of access to goods and services , and equality of access to the decision making processes.
With the above firmly in our minds and hearts we can start to map out a route to achieving those ideals.
Where we WILL reach an ideal of a world , of FREE ACCESS, MoneyFree, Credit Free, resource based,, a world of interrelating democracies , where our strengths are recognised by our differences, where every human , every community is free to develop in their own individual way as long as that way does not suppress or oppress others.
Nick,
We have problems in our democracy, no doubt about it. This is because it is controlled by money. Since money is free at the source, which is the central bank (CB), its use at any place to control anything, has to be corrupted. It is like controlling everything using air, which is free.
Democracy means, to me whenever we make a decision, and whenever it requires a vote, then it must use a secret ballot. But we find that, our elected officials, senators, congress men, members of parliament do not have the rights of secret ballot when they vote. Their votes are public, at least in USA. I am sure it is same in your country too. This is a severe breach of democracy.
If I elect a congress man using my secret ballot and then when he goes to vote in Washington, and uses open public ballot, then my secret vote becomes public. That means I do not have democracy also. Thus there is no secret ballot anywhere. Those who make the policy decisions, or make the laws, must use secret ballot whenever a vote is taken.
Why the vote is public in Washington? This is so, because money power can control them. The lobbyists go to Washington and tell the congressmen how to vote to serve the interest of money power, and not the interest of public, who the congressmen represent. President can twist their arms to vote in the way he wants. Senior members of congress can force them to vote in their way. Thus every vote is controlled by other people. This must be stopped.
If we had secret ballot, then we could have passed a bill to eliminate Central Bank. What is preventing us from implementing MLE is the lack of freedom or democracy or equality with the holders of money power.
I hope the problem is clear. The idea that we do not have democracy at Washington was first told in a news report on PBS channel, by Jim Lehrer.
BECOME A POLITICIAN
How difficult it is to become a politician in UK? In USA it is both difficult and easy too. There are examples of people becoming members of House of Representatives (which has 435 members) with almost no money and just by door to door campaigning. The US Senate may be more difficult, because it has only 100 members.
Once you are in, you can then try to make changes at the original place. (1)You can repeatedly raise the issue of removing central bank or (2) you can ask for secret ballot system in Parliament. If secret ballot system is implemented, then in the next phase central bank can be removed.
Why more and more people from the 99% group are not joining politics in all countries? These groups should organize themselves to place their candidates nationwide in all countries.
Merry Christmas! Happy Holidays! Happy New Year!
non of that would be true, I assisted a man quite a few years ago just as you indicated, he wore out a not so old car in the process, spent approximately 20,000 of his money, he did make a show but did not win, was offered 30,000 to be bought off in the process and refused, never tried again. then, ron paul is in the house and has been trying to remove the federal reserve in their position for i believe much more than 25 years and has yet to make a dent, most won t support the one that may improve thier life but look to those who will only worsen their hurt
Chris,
Around 1996 I remember little bit about the local TV election coverage of
Loretta Sanchez – Orange County, California, USA, congress woman. For more about her, you can check:
http://lorettasanchez.house.gov/
I found following few statements about her:
“Sanchez came out of political obscurity to defeat an entrenched Anglo-American congressman in the 1996 national election.”
http://biography.jrank.org/pages/3204/Sanchez-Loretta-1960-U-S-Representative.html
“But, emboldened by a 29 percent rise in Latino voter registration in California between 1992 and 1996, Sanchez ran a vigorous grassroots campaign and benefited from financial support from entertainment-industry figures (Mexican-American Linda Ronstadt among them) outraged by Dornan’s sharp anti-gay and anti-abortion rhetoric; the campaign turned ugly as he sought to tar Sanchez as a Catholic who repudiated church teachings on those issues. Sanchez herself emphasized immigrant rights and such bread-and-butter issues as education and Medicare funding, and shocked observers in November with a 984-vote victory”.
http://biography.jrank.org/pages/3204/Sanchez-Loretta-1960-U-S-Representative.html
As congress man it may be possible, but not as Senator. However, intense daily door to door campaign effort must be used. Things will slowly turn into your direction, as it happened in case of Loretta. Now is very good time, 99% people may be able to help. A smaller country, like Greece, Portugal, even UK, may be better than large country like USA. We need at least 10% of the members in the congress or parliament. The process must evolve.
But Chris, you are right. To overthrow Central Bank we may require a major war. But unless we create the environment such a person or group will not evolve that will do the job for the world population.
What we ordinary people need do first is organise our own lives and jobs. Forget politics for the moment. I stress “for the moment” because we can deal with politics once we are in a position to do so. First we need to be able to make a living outside of the capitalist empire in which we are disposable pawns. Only by uniting in small business ventures can we keep ourselves afloat while growing in strength and numbers. You cannot be unemployed when you have land and businesses. You simply work for each other when there is no paid work to be had, and work for pay whenever you can so as to pay unavoidable bills and build up more land and equipment and expertise and so on. I am in business for myself but ready to expand my operations so as to provide employment for one other. Later on we can double our numbers again. and we can keep doubling our numbers and our diversity for as long as it takes. Other groups can do the same and groups can help each other, financially and in so many other ways.
Discuss!
Cheers,
Bob
***
you see, I waited for a time because time some times tells more than not on a situation, you see any government is nothing but a fiction, a non entitiy if you will, so I get those government inquiries about the neatness of my yard, because if you live at law things will look messy to the ignorant as they cannot see life outside their narrow box. A fiction I do not claim to be a part of. so when they send their communications in the mail i promptly trash it in the bin where it belongs. When you answer their invite then you simply open an issue which does not in reality exists. It has been over 2 months and have not heard back, Neighbor 2 doors down made the mistake of answereing and bought himself trouble that he really didn t want. You see a fiction operating in the names of other humans have no more right than any one standing man. No man has a right to tell a man what property he may or may not own. A read on the treaty of human rights will key you in on what is or is not acceptable. Corrupts governments must to stay oppressive continually harass individuals steal there propery to prop up their self importance of a non funcitoning system, until you and others stand up against them and even address them in there courts, not progress to a better society on earth can be achieved. We do have to realize that those who have plagued the earth with this deplorable system must be dealt with either by execution or life imprisonment. A plan has to be devised to deal with sociopaths, mentally ill, criminal element and all other persons that must be housed separately in assisted living conditions and the methods and manner and time frame in which those actions are taken.
http://www.freetheplanet.net/ bob will like this
Thank you Nick,
I have had a quick look. I will study in more over the next few days. Thank you again.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Thank You all for being here. I have just found this site and am very happy to know there really are others giving serious and intelligent thought to this topic.
I have been interested in a Non-Monetary Society, and all the arguements for and against, for quite some time and I pay close attention to Intentional Communities such as “Twin Oaks” http://www.twinoaks.org .
I have a lot of catching up to do on this conversation but I hope to join in the discussion soon.
Hi Ted,
Here in Swansea, Wales, UK a new free cafe has just started up. It is called the Cwtch Community Centre. Cwtch is pronounced Cutch. I took some cookies in there today that Sue made. Sue went there yesterday for a meeting. I’ve not had time yet. Sue and I and three others make up the Brynderwen vegan community here in Llansamlet. I am planning a business empire with a difference, a network of limited liability partnership flexi co-ops. They could be the key to much needed change prior to any kind of world socialism.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Hey man, My grandmom was a Caldwell. Peace and Strength
Please watch the CBS Sunday Morning Video aired in USA at:
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7398424n
The Internet revolutionizing revolutions
The video shows, among many other things, how one young woman took down a Bank of America plan. The internet and cell phones seem to be very powerful.
Can we not start something along these lines? Do we have experts on Twitter or YouTube? Can any one of us give some strategy or ideas?
Subhendu
I agree. It’s time to ramp this up a bit.
Facebook Page? Youtube Channel? Heck everything we can think of.
I would do it myself but I’m just not any good at those things,
I did read a few posts back in this thread about a “Social Network” (money-free.com, I think?) but when I went to it, it seemed to be about to close down.
Maybe if the owner of it,(it’s somewhere in this LONG converstaion)wants to turn it over to someone else here to mangage it?
Please let us know of anything anyone is doing along these lines.
I will be interested to know how it goes but I will carry on with my own plans (as described above) and report any progress here, as and when it happens. Publicity is good but you have to have something to publicise. That is what I will be concentrating on.
Cheers,
Bob
***
On Feb 12, 2012 I posted a CBS News video site, on how people have used internet and cell phones to create revolution. I do not know if you got time to watch it or not.
The purpose of the video is not for publicity as Bob suggested. There is no end of publicity of moneyless economy (MLE). You can see from the following site that – “More than 300 million people are benefiting from moneyless markets”
http://www.alliance21.org/2003/imprimer3216_en.html
Without government participation, however, real thing cannot be implemented. Ted has done a very good job. I have watched his site. But it is not feasible to implement a good MLE, survive well, and remain happy, inside the money based capitalism.
You can see the problems in Greece. So much destruction, frustration, but still government is forcing austerity on people. There is no reason to implement austerity, MLE will do the job. So, in one sense Bob is right, people in Greece clearly do not know that Central Bank is a private bank and money is free for the central bank. So the core reasons of MLE are not known to people and therefore publicity is needed to spread that information.
Subhendu and everyone,
I have been well aware of the problem for fifty years, what I want to see is the solution. There have been so called solutions that in the end have been worse problems. The USSR was no solution because Lenin got certain things wrong, then Stalin compounded the problem. China went down that road. Other countries too. We now have a chance to put all that behind us and do it differently. My point is that the land in every country is “owned”. It is not free for everyone to use. I own part of it. Millions of others do too. They all need convincing that everything will be okay if they relinquish their title to the land. But there is no guarantee that it will be any better, and it could be a whole lot worse. So they won’t do it. No-one will be the first. Everyone will wait to see what the others will do. So nothing will happen. I have spelled out a way to do it but you are too impatient. You want quick change. Therefore you will get no change. But good luck to you all.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Bob,
You are correct.
As I think you understand, there is a huge Mindset that we must try to change? …correct? ..work with ?…I don’t know.
BUT, I do feel that we must work toward a better…..life?…. a better world? …..a better reality?
of course without killing off the members of central banking system and all their associative oppearatives no change will occur in which it has any effect on people s lives, as otherwise you may imprision them for life and work them for contirbution but as they escape they will again become a problem, that ceratinly needs addressing
What we must never do is start killing people.
Cheers,
Bob
***
so then robert, you have your answer, your enemy will kill your without thought to not attempt the implementation of a system other than theirs and with them in control, you will not try and implement a system against their will and so then it will not happen, when the forefathers of the united states begat their travel in a new venture, they knew they had to kill their enemy, unfortunately no other way exists for man to remove oppression, oppressors will never relent their oppression just because it is unfair, because it is unfair is the reason they oppresss. a sociopahth is without empathy, it is sociopaths which set up oppresssive systems. unfortunately, whatever system is set up it will start to degradge immediately, just as the united states has, the more purged society is in the process the longer it will last, new socio paths will develope in time. people have to realize that if they are not willing to go into a venture it is aand will remain only a feel good story in which to read. other than that if no will is there to force change than talk not about a money less economy which the olicarchy will never allow but rathar how a more fair economy might come about and what safegards can be created to assist that it actually be implemented
Chris,
Give a thought that MAYBE life is not evil. That maybe… WE (good folk) are actually stronger. Sleep well my friend. WE are strong.
no, man is born evil, he has to work against the nature he isbornwith, that is why you can well see in the united states, blacks have in the last 3 generations on the welfare system,in the hood, regressed to the jungle, it s deplorable and unfortunate but that is the reality, that is why good parents are correcting their young growing up it is the directing the child against the evil nature which is underneath that would otherwise raise up
no, man is born evil, he has to work against the nature he isbornwith, that is why you can well see in the united states, blacks have in the last 3 generations on the welfare system,in the hood, regressed to the jungle, it s deplorable and unfortunate but that is the reality, that is why good parents are correcting their young growing up it is the directing the child against the evil nature which is underneath that would otherwise raise up, no, the evil are stronger, look around you, sociopaths are less than 5%of the world population and create more than 50% of the trouble. all that is necessary for evil to prevail is that good men do nothing, (as you are recommending)
Chris,
Has it occured to you that if you, yourself, can see the difference between good and evil, if YOU recognize that evil is bad, than YOU are GOOD.
Which blows your theory of Mankind being inately evil right out the window.
Now how about a hug.
according to some reckoning 1 person in 4 does not have the emphatic gene
nick there is no socio pathic gene or at least that any one knows, Dr Robert Hare is the foremost authority, his belief is that 3 to 5 % of the population are sociopathic to a degree to be a threat to society, every one will have marginal markers which are insignificat, if those 5 percent are contained in some fashion permanently disturbance in society would be minimal, he feels the jail system is failed and would prefer some better methods
If those with the empathic gene were to kill the 1,750 million without it, that would make the world okay would it? Then all we would need to do is test each baby as it is born and kill it if it is without the empathy gene. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. More like what those without the empathy gene would suggest. Only they would maybe kill all those with the gene. And anyone else who got in their way. Is the empathy gene real anyway?
Cheers,
Bob
***
first off robert, there is no such thing as an empathy gene, or at least as far as any one knows, however, psychological test can determine the level of sociopathology of any one by the age of 16 with a great deal of accuracy, those with scores above 20 and with a history of aggression will be a problem to society, that is a method of recommendation for the removing troubled people to create a true civilization, that would be different from attempting to create a different system as a moneyless society,where such a large number of people would be entirely displaced and lowered beyond what they would tolerate, that would only happen when one group or the other were annialated. the enemy you wish to addrless would kill you to deprive you of a mere thousand dollars, you indicate that you would not kill your enemy at any costs and that addreses that at least as you contend any move for implementationn of a moneyless society is off the table so then we must then discuss what we may do that the oligarchy would then approve
Ah, the old Nature V Nurture debate.
Chris,
by “Removing” those with any given “Sociopathology” score, you would be treating the symptom and ignoring the cause.
In my own experience, those who have less of an empathic outlook, or who are more willing to put their own needs and desires above anyone else’s and lack the gut instinct to treat others at a socially acceptable ‘Ethical’ level, have usually suffered themselves from being treated poorly (not at the socially accepted level)or suffered some phsycological/emotional trauma, which has left them with a baseline idea of how people in general should be treated.
From the treatment THEY have recieved, they have LEARNED what is acceptable in treating others.
The obvious method to counteract the abundance and growth of a continually lowering ethical standard would be a universal effort to avoid treating anyone poorly, as much as is possible, to ‘turn the other cheek’. Even going so far as to drop the whole ‘Punishment” thing in favor of attempting to socially rehab offenders. (Compare American prisons and repeat offenders with the attitude of the Scandinavian Prison system and they’re recidivism rates).
I will admit that we are not yet advanced enough to successfully deal with those of us with severe sociopathology, and that society should be protected from their possible actions, but there’s a good arguement to be said that by treating them humanely and even with a respect and concern for their comfort and well-being, we would only be reinforcing the positive ethical values of our society as a whole, and therefore decreasing the chances of creating more socially negative attitudes.
Well said, Ted
Cheers,
Bob
***
I typed in Google what is sociopath. And got the following:
“They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible”
Doesn’t central bank fall in this category? See how they do not recognize the rights of the people of Greece.
Also I got “Feels entitled to certain things as their right.”
Central bank thinks only it has the right to print money and no one else?
When Chris says they are 3% in number I am not sure whom he includes. Aren’t they Wall Street people? Aren’t they money men working for central bank?
We should not think the way central banks want us to think. Sociopaths are not the poor people on the streets they are the rich people in the castles. Money power is very creative and tries to brainwash us in many different ways.
Here is a circular logic that money power uses government must be reduced -> so cut the budget for SEC (securities exchange commission) and make them smaller and weaker -> then when money power corruption is detected they say see SEC did not do their job -> government is bad and must be reduced.
Yes, Subhendu.
I believe it was in the film “The Corporation” where it was shown that when a corporation is put to the same tests that we use to determine an actual persons phsycological state, when the answers are given as though the corporation were human, the corporations always turn up as…
Sociopaths.
Sociopath test on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgZGuasi1q0
Ha! that was fun!
and for some strange reason I actually got the right answer.
Do you think there was some subliminal, One-frame picture in there somewhere or is that the real deal?
I said a blue shovel.
Cheers,
Bob
***
PS. I used to paint my hammers yellow so I could find them. But that was because I happened to have some nice yellow paint that dried quickly. I would have used any bright colour.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Also:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6aCir5bu-c
ted you are covering 3 separate issues, first reformation of a criminal is a myth, there is not rank and file reformation of the criminal element, the time in priso is used to perfect the crime and as such they are better at not being caught,government in the US for the most part don t investigate crime, hence, a 50 year drug war and no effect. the marginal amount of arrest are in response to investigative info by civilians and to their emabarassment, the symptom of environment caused behavior problems are referred as social sociopaths, it is currently only professionally accepted by 50% of the trained doctors that some of these may be nearly normal if they are extracted at a very youny age and kept from that environment. a socio path is just that way it is not a medical conditon and cannot be treated, prison makes them more violent and the worse case scenario is to leave them in society at large to prey on victims, all predatory activity is not murder, rape and child molestation, sociopaths will do anything that causes havoc with others, one theory is that socio- paths exiled and at large but not free to renter society at large will neutralize their behavior. that one socio path neutralizes the other and therefor no injury can occur. all socio paths would recognize the other as like thems self and be non trusting and aware to not be taken advantage of
Chris,
I think if we were to take a serious look at both of our positions, we would find that you and I agree on a lot.
subhendu it is interesting that you mention bankers and wall streeter as Doctor Robert Hare who is considered the foremost authority on sociopaths and is search out by governments the world over for his recommendations states that his belief that those professions are filled with socio paths at a rate of 75%, however I believe he rates it somewhat higher due to his personal dislike of those professions. on another note socio paths in the lower ranks of society are quite prevalent, and of course social sociopaths are in huge numbers and are destroy life in the united states, it is a plague on the land and will not be easily solved in the next 50 years without some major movement
Chris,
Don’t beat about the bush, exactly what are your recommendations? What are you suggesting should be done with the millions (billions?) of sociopaths? And who should do it? Other sociopaths or you and me? How do we know that we would not also be for the chop?
***
We haven’t tried my recommendations yet in which no-one gets locked up or hung or anything nasty but new communities of different sorts are created for different types, and each person chooses his or her preferred community. Distance is the best way to prevent one type interfering with another. Wars happen mostly between neighbours. If the Israelis moved to Mexico then they would cease to bother the Gaza Arabs. That is just an example.
Cheers,
Bob
***
well bob hundreds of groups in the us have done exactly as you arewishing to do a first start up, the most famous is the dividian experience, it went up in smoke, the oligarchy will not tolerate its slaves wanting to leave its fold, as to what to do with socio paths Dr. hare himself isn t sure what should be done or how something should be done only that the prison systems of today are ineffectual and as such we have states of anarchy and police states at the same time. majority agree that a serial killer should be put to death, isn t it more compationate to determine that likely hood prior tothe first victim and have that socio path exiled in a state where he is still free to move about just not to enter into the larger society. we already do the same to the public at large with national borders. trememdous numbers of problems are solved, energy shortages, wrongfull deaths, expense of a government, heck the law profession can nearly be eliminated, insurance would no longer look as it does today, further, all socio paths only doevil gnerally in different directions, if the socio path you exile wasn t a murder but rathar say a financial scamer, aren t the larger decent people pretty much better off with out either character, if good people do nothing evil will prevail
Chris,
I think you mean Davidians. Please proof read before sending. It doesn’t take long. Nutters with guns will be challenged, that is obvious. I have no intention of starting an army. I will study what Doctor Hare has to say and get back to you.
Cheers,
Bob
***
robert, well you tend to fall for propaganda easily, and more people than not will repeat history as time has well documented, it is perhaps that man just travels in circles, just as most do when lost in a forest at night. while the thrid reich was building its strength, that assaulted one small group after another, as they did, the separate people looked at each other and noticed they were not amongst those minorities and were then not concerned, that continued till all those small groups were then gone and it was then their turn and they looked around to summon help from the others, but they were all gone. the us government had to go after the davidians because of 3 seperate issues, first they were gun sellers, they were well trained and could restore weapons and do financially well, much more profit than say used cars, but because of the knowledge of the market they were aware of the gun running the us government was involved in selling and providing drug cartels and guns on the streets of the us, they were prepared to expose and with the embarassment of the Iran contra gun deal some years earlier would have been a major embarassment to the authorites, they were not going to tolerate that, second the community has be self scooling the children for some 10 years, in a non government environment these kids would have been approaching a master degree level, if the outside world were to then see the possibility outside of the government realm, there would have been a masss exodus out of their system of corruption, another thing they could not endure, further the internal prosperity was so outstripping the norm of society they would have soon become a power exceeding a corrupt regieme, as long as you stary small and non productive and don t educate too many slaves you will be left alone, if you become successful and attract their minnions you will pay the price.
Chris,
You have your views, and I don’t expect your views will readily change. I will try to keep an open mind and be aware of possibilities of danger from government agencies. I feel sure that there are ways to be successful without falling foul of the law and without selling out.
Cheers,
Bob
***
well robert, there are the Amish in the United States which have been doing a hybyrd system of which you are describing, and quite frankly they and for the most part you are ahead of the times because of the changing world and I mean fast changing, technolgy has peaked and started to wane, so the return to somewhat the agrarian small farm community will be of necessity round the world, the amish are not assaulted in this country as they show no outward signs of prosperity, it is the prosperity that raises the ire of government officials, they want to see mediocrity or desperation only on the backs of all but their annointed group, two major issues caused the demise of the davidians were the relative prosperity and exponentially growing and the schooling system which would have developed a generation which would have exposed the failure of their government system therefore showing the governments crimes against humanity, barring you never expose their shortcummings or accumulate what is construed as prosperity you should do fine.Of course as Ted had indicated, if your numbers are small they also seem to leave those groups alone
Chris,
I think the Amish are great, but I wouldn’t want to be one. My ideas are somewhat similar to theirs but in many ways different also. Very different to the cults. More like what Robert Owen was suggesting.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Chris (and everyone),
This is Robert Hare: “a sociopath’s criminal behavior is shaped by social forces and is the result of a dysfunctional environment.”
The obvious solution is to create at least micro environments that are not dysfunctional and eventually a world that is not dysfunctional. Easier said than done, admittedly, but that is the direction I think we need to go in, if necessarily slowly.
There will always be every type of personality, but the present system allows the worst elements to prey on the gullible.
We have a lot to do…
Cheers,
Bob
***
Chris,
Not all Intentional Communities are cults, one that I am particularly interested in is the Twin Oaks Community http://www.twinoaks.org , and since the evil oligarchy, Illuminati, whatever, haven’t bothered them in 40 years, I’d say they’re a safe bet for being around a while.
Bob,
I like the way you think.
Ted,
What kind of modern facilities you have in your Twin Oaks? More specifically –
Do you have high speed internet connections? Did you install solar panels? Any wind power electric source? etc.
What is the single most important thing that you would like to implement for Twin Oaks within next one month? How much money do you save per month from your net income?
Please provide as much information as you like to share with us.
Congratulations for your great community. You should feel blessed that 100 souls are living with you.
Regards,
Subhendu
Thanks Ted,
Do you know Pam. She went to Twin Oaks decades ago from the UK. I live in a small vegan community here in the UK (Brynderwen) but it is nothing like what I aim to create next. No-one really understands all the potential. We have hardly begun to tap it. As I said, we have a lot to do.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Bob,
I would love to follow your progress as you continue to work on this project. Perhaps it’s something I would like to be involved with and work on also in the future.
I don’t know if you have access to my email from these posts but I would really like to know any more info that you care to make public.
Stay Strong.
Hi Ted,
Progress will be slow until I am joined by one other person. That person could join me here in Wales UK or by starting a similar project in a different part of the world. This is the way I see things happening: One person with ideas and practical plans is joined by another on the basis of developing practical plans, then maybe a year later they are joined by two others, and the same each year so that numbers are doubling each year. After 33 years, every person in the world is part of a flexi co-op. Do the math. 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, that’s the first ten years. It gets more interesting in the second ten. This can only be achieved by those willing to invest time and money (that dreaded money) into the project, and that is only realistically possible (probable) if they get a financial return on their investment. That is the way the world is. It is not filled with idealists. Idealists are a tiny minority and are usually not very practical. Some of them live extraordinary lives that others cannot emulate. They make life more entertaining (Lady Gaga):-) The only people who can save the situation are the practical people who create a new society from the sweat of their collective brow. They must stop supporting the capitalists and grow their own culture. Are you ready to become a part of such a movement Ted?
Cheers,
Bob
***
robertcircle1@yahoo.co.uk
Robert Howes,
I am not sure if I understand you. It seems you are talking about a business and not about moneyless economy (MLE). Am I correct? You said “if they get a financial return on their investment”. This appears to be making money. It is a quite legitimate goal; I understand that, we are in capitalism. But you cannot create a MLE and at the same time look for profit from that MLE system. That defeats the objective of MLE.
Subhendu
Subhendu,
Yes, it is a little difficult to get our heads around but since the moneyless economy is way off in the future and people have to live in the present there is no real conflict. I wish it could have all been settled before I was born, but it wasn’t, so we have to deal with the money world on its terms until we are all singing from the same hymn sheet, all living as one (all for one and one for all) in flexi co-ops all over the world, before the world can become one huge flexi co-op. I think I already explained this to you above, except I only recently coined the flexi co-op term. It covers the local work co-op idea and the circle city idea and any other community that provides its members with what they need without money changing hands between members. But if the rest of the world still uses money and we want anything from them, then we have no choice but to pay. And in order to pay for all that the co-op needs every month then the co-op has to generate that much cash every month. And to make the co-op appeal to those who are not like us we have to go further. We have to make sure they get money in their bank accounts every month in order that they join and stay until they too see the futility of the whole money idea and how poorly it serves them. We also have to guarantee that if they leave they leave with enough accumulated funds to have a decent life. But we also need to make it so good that no-one ever wants to leave, and I have plenty of ideas how to do that. If we offer so much then we in turn get to choose between candidates for membership. We can choose the best of them. That will make for more assured success of the co-ops. I hope that makes it all clear, but if not then please ask for further clarification. You have to realise that what we are trying to do is the biggest thing that has ever been done in any conscious way in the history of the planet. I have been working on this problem daily for fifty years. I cannot expect you to understand it all from the few words that I have written. Please do your best.
Cheers,
Bob
***
It all makes perfect sense to me for two reasons;
1. The current reality is a Capitalist Society, until any transition to an MLE is more than halfway complete, Money will still be needed to live.
2. Money seems to be all that the folks whom we are trying to convince care about (they don’t yet know of another, better way), so it can be used by us as a tool to accomplish that transition, much as Firefighter’s use flame to burn firebreaks which slow the spread of wildfires and eventual starve the fire of the fuel it needs to exist.
As Bob realizes, we must consider that we are trying to accomplish a transition and not an immediate changeover.
Let me follow up by saying that I believe that in order to achieve that transition, with the agreement of the rest of our population, We must be able to educate those who are not aware of the benefits of that change to a MLE, and we can educate them through the solid, viable examples of successful MLE communities such as those found through the Federation of Intentional Communities http://www.ic.org , and through Successful models of creating and distributing needed products and services without the use of money -such as the business plan Bob is working on.
These examples will show the uneducated that a Money-less society IS not only possible but preferable by existing within a Capitalist society and yet using money only as a redundancy until more and more non-monetary commerce is available.
robert it seems to mimic the jim jones experiment of central americ some 20 years ago
Chris,
You cannot be serious!
Cheers,
Bob
***
sure, that s the primary thing every one has to constantly aware of, some individuals sell the idea a a nivernna, after some wealth is built they have developed a scam in which to siphon it off, sometimes to the physical demise of the suckers, other times just the wealth they had accumulated over time which they are generally conned into throwing into the pool. man is man and is corrupted, unless somehow there were a devine intervention changing the core being of a man, the danger is most paramount problem, if it weren t then this blog never would have started
ted, cult is a trigger word used by the media to engage a mindset that they control, it is true that with any group that stays small and especially self limiting that it doesn t start siphoning off the rank and file slaves, the oligarchy will dismiss off their minds, it s only if things begin to become successful, they will then set the stage to physically crush it, the might have even been your best friend some years earlier
Hey Chris,
I honestly do agree with a lot of what you are saying. I’m aware that the “Powers That Be” are more than willing to do absolutely anything to retain their imagined superiority and to maintain society’s extremely unfair status quo.
However, I give them much less credit than you do. It’s my belief that they only achieved their upper-hand in the first place by employing that same disregard for Humans and Humanity, and that they have no actual attributes that would account for their financially elevated position, other than the sheer ruthlessness you speak of. And yes, I agree that the corporate Media is one of their best weapons to use against any new ideas of equality.
In any given discussion to settle a difference of opinion, the idiot who is willing to punch the other guy’s face usually considers himself the victor(although nothing had actually been SETTLED), and the other is too busy tending to his wounds to continue the debate.
But when you take the strongarm tactics out of the debate,or at least if we are willing to continue the debate despite them, both guys can concentrate on acheiving an agreement.
Sometimes it comes down to perserverance,: When NYPD PHYSICALLY LED 750 Occupy Wall St. marchers into an illegal position on the Brooklyn Bridge and then arrested them for being there, they thought they had the upperhand. After spending Millions trying to defend their actions in court, and jumping through hoops trying but failing to buy off the arrestees with reduced charges etc., they are most likely regretting the arrests in the first place. Please note that this situation did NOTHING to reduce the protests as was intended, and in fact did the opposite by outraging the public at large. The protests grew tremendously after that little trick.
Where you and I differ Chris, is that I do NOT consider the debate a lost cause short of killing off my opponents.
Perseverance, stamina, a full dedication to the cause and a willingness to openly concede mistakes and constantly strive to improve any given position, WILL, eventually, prove to be a far greater “weapon” than anyone’s fist.
It is in fact the ONLY way that Humanity has made any of the POSITIVE progress it has so far.
Subhendu,
I’m sorry if I didn’t make myself clear. I do NOT live at Twin Oaks, I am only very much interested in living there. I care for a 83 yr.old parent with dementia, so I cannot move there, yet.)
But yes, they have internet, electricity, (both solar and grid), plumbing, and every other modern convienience they care for.
The community owns 100 acres, some of which they organically farm and many houses, workshops, community buildings, several cars, trucks, farm equipment, etc. and they make a good income from their two successful businesses.
The community keeps it’s population at or below 100 people intentionally, and that usually consists of families, and ex-professionals like Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers, etc.
Their main objective is that nothing is PERSONALLY owned, except sentimental stuff, and everything is equally and unconditioanally shared by everyone within the community.
I forgot to mention that Twin Oaks also covers every member with Full Healthcare, a step up from the rest of my country.
Ali, I never offered you any conflict, contrarily, since that money ideal deserves to cease to exist, as a righteous man it’s my quite moral duty to let you receive a relevant suggestion of mine that all that matters, is to exist as True Optimists about all this, an issue, whereon I’m by admission likely
to make an unwanted mistake, i.e. one that’s just welcome to be seen as a minor detail, one that’s after all a part of my intr. in existing as a righteous man, it’s better than nothing, ‘cos you ARE against me trying to be ‘just’ myself, i.e. about ‘this & that,’ it’s your personal mistake, anyway, whatever it can exist as my suggestion or not, so I can find out & so on, greetings, ‘J.A.,’ if you don’t care about me, This Planet is still A Mystery to me, One That I don’t give into that I can fail to be ‘just’ myself etc. guitartie@yahoo.ie, honesty is also a certain right to be able to make a mistake, i.e. about ‘this & that,’ even Arnold, The ‘Famous’ Gorilla, IS able to contradict being Himself.
Ali, I never offered you any conflict, contrarily, since that money ideal deserves to cease to exist, as a righteous man it’s my quite moral duty to let you all receive a relevant suggestion of mine that all that matters, is to exist as True Optimists about all this, an issue, whereon I’m by admission likely & able to make an unwanted mistake about
‘this & that,’ however, one that’s just a part of myself, trying to be a fair man, cool about ‘this & that,’ so I can find out & so on, admitted, maybe I was wrong about ‘this & that,’ however, against myself being anyone’s conflict, even yours, Ali, greetings, guitartie@yahoo.ie, your own flaw, if I could tell you anything about, how other people treated me, you’d never even allow me that I could exist as ‘just’ myself.
Ted I and many others have not realised that the road to a moneyfree world is a road of transistion instead of the immediate demand of a peaceful global democratic revolution, much less realised that a transistional road would be along Bobs road for profit co-ops.
do you realy think in 100 years time there is going to be environment to save? in a 100 years time any civil libertys left? that the road of ineuality will be reversed/
Our planet is in dire need of peceful, global revolution , our environment cries out for it and our people are dying for it.
unless you are not demanding it you are a cop out.
and you can still demand it while making plans for the future.
Turn up the volume
Demand Global Democratic Revolution NOW
Nick,
I DO realize the immediacy of the situation and I DO participate in my own way in what I hope is the very beginning of the Revolution.
I do demand change (not that my little demands will mean anything) and I do also HOPE that better ideas, like the ones we discuss here, are the basis of the plans we must make to move Human Progress forward.
Just trying to be realistic, my friend.
Hi Nick,
What Ted said Nick, What Ted said.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Hi Everyone,
A good starting point for all of us could be:
http://ukiahcommunityblog.wordpress.com/2011/01/07/a-human-scale-economy/
I found it searching for Kirkpatrick Sale, but I found a wealth of other info. I hope you enjoy what you get from it. Please read it with an open mind. Please do not look for ways to discredit any of it until you properly understand it.
Cheers,
Bob
***
OK, very good article.
But here’s my problem with it(if I read it correctly);
The Human Scale economy, as the author spells it out, is simply a reduction of the ABUSE of a monetary economy.
This would rely, as the author points out twice, on the willing cooperation of the population (and therefore the corporations) to maintain the trade economy at the lowest level possible to insure comfort for all. A great idea IF the population willingly goes along with it despite the fact that any given corporation COULD still abuse the process for it’s own benefit if it chose to.
That’s where I see a problem, and where I agree with Chris. I don’t believe for a minute that, given the opportunity, certain members of the population or the corporations they run would resist abusing anything or anyone they could if it would result in a little benefit to themselves, especially after recent GENERATIONS of believing in the mindset that the good, respectable thing to do is to succeed at any cost. And with a competitive system still in place, this would escalate again as it is doing now. If mankind as a whole were capable of understanding, appreciating, and attaining that type of altruistic economy, we wouldn’t be where we are today, it wouldn’t be an issue.
I know that smoking and drinking are bad for me and I still do them, I ALSO believe that all drugs should be legal, because these are personal decisions that only effect me. I do tend to be more careful about my decisions when they effect others besides just me, but I think that we can all agree that not the entire population is so thoughtful of others at this point in our development.
I still believe that we must take that temptation and the ability to abuse any system that effects the entire population off the table for good. We must create and accept a system that has no built-in loopholes or ways to allow anyone to abuse it. A system that has no benefits for the abusers.
So we are back to trying to formulate a system that does NOT rely on every individual doing the right thing on his or her own. Don’t confuse this with a lack of PERSONAL freedoms, but when it comes to what is good for, and effects the entire population, the majority must rule or nothing will get done.
The GREAT part about that article is that it exists at all! That we are finally having loud, public discussions (like ours) which recognize that the current system is fatally and LETHALLY flawed, and that change MUST occur if we are to survive, let alone reach a level of equality, freedom and opportunity for all (and when I say opportunity I do NOT mean hoarding more dollars or euros or whatever you want to call these chit-notes so many people are obsessed with).
I would have to say very insightful
Thanks Ted,
Kirkpatrick Sale’s thinking goes way back. He recognised all the things wrong with capitalism in the 1970s or earlier. But a few people like him or us are not able to get rid of capitalism while so many believe there to be no other way to run the world. It is all they know. They were born into it, and if it serves them they will defend it (to the death). What we can do, however, is to create alternatives that will be defended and expanded by those involved. We have to be realistic. People will only defend and expand an alternative system if it serves them well. And until the majority are served well by the new system the rest will continue to fight their corner. We have to be clever here. We have to create not an antagonistic new system but rather a complementary new system that, as impossible as it might seem, helps prevent boom and bust in capitalism at the same time as expanding itself. There are those here who think this approach is wrong and won’t work. They think some other way might work. Like a world strike, for instance. I will let Nick explain that one. We will know by the end of this year whether or not it works. It is interesting that you talk about the reduction of abuse. If that were the case then a reduction of abuse would be a good thing in its own right, and if abuse was reduced continually it would cease altogether eventually. If you want to end abuse altogether immediately then you need to spell out exactly how you get everyone in the world to agree. Not just to agree but to implement the agreement. Everyone in the world has their own agendas, and most are so tied up with getting more of everything that they are not going to be interested in anything we have to say. In order to make them interested we have to first organise ways to get them what they want. Not the vocal minority who want it all and want it now, but the ordinary person on the street who can see what is fair and will join in if it serves their purposes. It must allow them to feed themselves and their families. It cannot be just theory, but it cannot be without theory either. It needs to be theory put into practise. If we simply advise everyone to give up money, now, what will be the result? But if we practise best use of money then we can grow such a system of small producers quite quickly. Money is not evil in itself, it is the use of it that has led us down the wrong path. It has enabled the division of the world into rich and poor (individuals, nations, companies and so on) with the rich minority preying on the poor majority. This need not continue. We can stop it. But we cannot stop it by foolish methods. We can try any method to gather data about the results in order to see our direction better. The world strike 2012 will either succeed or it will fail. I expect it to fail therefore I will not support it. But it doesn’t need my one vote, it needs billions, and billions don’t know about it because the promoters don’t have the finances to propagate the idea. Any idea worth promoting needs financing because that is the type of world we live in. We can grow the new system (exponentially) or we can try to grow it instantly, magically. Capitalism did not grow instantly, it grew exponentially over a protracted period of time, one bit of legislation at a time. One bit of technology at a time. One invention at a time. Now we have to grow the replacement system in a like manner, extracting capital from capitalism until, eventually, capitalism simply dies from lack of sustenance. This might not be in our lifetimes but someone has to start the process off if it is to succeed. I have been saying this for decades in the hope that others will come to see the sense of it. Other “instant” methods have been suggested along the way but each has fallen at the first hurdle. The Socialist Party of Great Britain has been offering such a recipe for over 100 years and we are further than ever from the overwhelming majority of workers of the world voting socialism into being. How can they vote if they don’t know about it. In a very real sense I am talking about voting with our whole beings, not simply with pen on paper. They only want a cross in a box so that they can get instant change. But 100 years plus is not instant, even if they succeeded, but they have failed miserably. And they blame you. They blame the workers for not responding to their call. In my case I only blame myself for my lack of success. And I urge you all to not blame others. What is the point? We all need to do some serious thinking. There is a massive job to do and few of us to do it. We must use practical methods to grow our numbers while there is time.
Cheers,
Bob
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well the first thing is that the governments of the world need to be directed by popular vote that private insurance is abolished and that all insurance of any kind is a part of our lives that are held in common and that then the cost of insurance is then born by the community through government expense in the reimbursment of the injured. that should not be a difficult sell in that the current system has led to the corruption of police forces that make themselves profiteers in the event of crime. further, when the clerk is robbed and physically injured most would agree it to be a good and proper matter that the victim be hospitalized at state expense, further if a catastrophe occurs most agree that government expense be used to help the people recovery, so were moving in that direction, we simply need the nudging further by full acceptance andeleimnation of private insurance, one of capitalists more vile arms. banking next
Darn, I wrote a great reply that didn’t go through for some reason, but to sum it up;
YES, you’re right Bob, we need to continue to create alternative, NON-ANTAGONISTIC models to show the value and benefits of a better system, while at the same time showing clearly the extremely negative effect of staying with capitalism.
And yes, the common folks mindset must be nudged back to an understanding that what is good for the entire population is good for the individual, and AWAY from the false capitalist concept that the only way to get any ‘Good” is to take that good away from someone else.
That change in mindset will have direct benefits not only to our trade system, but to our social systems as well.
The fight will be hard and long, the pro-capitalists have a lot on the line and absolutely no morals or ethics, and I agree that actions such as the Strike will not have the immediate effect some folks are hoping for, but will probably only be used to paint the movement in a negative light by the capitalist controlled Media.
However, I DO feel that continued actions like the Strike, OWS, Move Your Money Day, etc, will serve to open up some minds to the conversation and hopefully prepare folks to be more receptive to the ideas our models will represent.
Just wanted to pass along a couuple of interesting things I came across;
http://reason.com/archives/2008/10/28/a-non-socialist-alternative-to
http://www.bmartin.cc/pubs/01nvc/nvcp05.pdf
Have a good day my Friends, Stay Strong.
That is encouraging thanks.
http://www.captaincynic.com/thread/62781/1/would-society-be-better-without-money.htm This is another place where they are discussing the same thing. Check it out y’all.
Cheers,
Bob
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Here is an example of one other forum I write to. This is my latest post:
Robin,
You are making a mistake. You are equating success and ruling as though we are all ruled by those who have succeeded in accumulating a certain amount of money. This simply is not true. Within that class of parasites there are those who also rule. All American presidents are millionaires but not all millionaires are involved in ruling or are interested in doing so. You vastly over-generalise.
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As for taking the means of production off the capitalists, this is absurd when there are only a tiny handful of would be takers and very little prospect of an increase. As you well know this is only a theoretical possibility under certain very unlikely conditions. You can hang onto this hope if you like, until your dying day. But not me brother.
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There has to be a better way to go about this and you are not even looking.
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The capitalists do not have a utopia, they live in the same world the rest of us do, just in bigger houses. Warren Buffet in fact lives in a very modest house that he bought in 1958 for $31.500. Not a tiny house but no palace. He has another house worth $4,000,000, after all he is one of the richest men in the world. But is he one of our rulers? I hardly think so. Just who are these rulers of the ruling class? Name and shame them.
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My point is that in the money world we all live in, we all breathe the same polluted air and have mostly the same money related problems and there is no reason why the most successful amongst us would not be equally successful in utopian (not in the pejorative) communities. Successful at money free living that is. And if the world can see that the more successful members of society are living that way then the rest will want to live that way too. Such things are starting to happen in various parts of the world already, but not on the scale that they could.
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If only socialists could see that they are cutting off their collective nose to spite their collective face by hating or despising the successful (which looks all the world like envy) then they might get somewhere. Marx made some good points but mostly in a very narrow way. There is a lot more to humanity that Marx ever knew or ever could know in his day. Things have moved on and we must do the same. We must look afresh at the problem and at any and every potential solution.
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You are showing your reactionary side when you call my way of thinking nuts. Of course capitalists accumulate capital, that is tautological, but I am interested in what they do with what they have accumulated and how this can benefit the rest of us. You only see sour grapes where I see luscious fruit.
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When are you going to admit the futility of trying to get what you want without giving anything? I think a lot of so called socialist thinking is based on the idea of dragging the rich down to the level of the poor rather than the reverse.
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I am not asking the capitalist class to commit suicide (as you suggest), I am asking them to free themselves as humans in a way that their money can not do for them. Their money only gives them limited freedom, financial freedom. It does not give them the sort of freedom that only socialism can give them, essentially the freedom to not have to accumulate (or go under). You really need (in your mind) to separate the capitalists from capitalism. Capitalists are human too. Capitalism is a monster. Capitalism cannot be tamed, as such, but it can be used against itself in creating first utopia, then a fully free world. You are probably thinking it is wrong that those with the most should also be given more, but it is the only way (that I am aware of) to finance the switch from capitalism to socialism.
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I have created a yahoo group to discuss the how but not the whether:
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/Practicalguidetoafreeworld/
Cheers,
Bob
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— In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, “robbo203″ wrote:
>
>
>
> — In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, “Bob Howes (vegan)” wrote:
> >
> > Robin,
> >
> > You reveal by your answer that you see fundamental differences between the rich and the rest, as though we are not all the same animal. Capitalists are only different in limited ways. They have the same needs as the rest but more of the means. The poor want what the rich have, money to buy stuff with. So if the workers produce what the rich need then the workers get paid in money. The rich don’t know that they could be happy in a moneyless enclave. But if we show them, and they try it out for themselves and they like it then they will buy it. This is pretty basic economics, market a novel product (in this case a lifestyle), promote it, sell it, reap the rewards.
> > ***
> > At the same time, use the rewards to create a similar lifestyle for ourselves (not instead of). I am not talking about socialist behaviour I’m talking about using the capitalist market to create the conditions of a future socialism. Get the capitalists off our back first and get them to finance the changes (since it is they who have surplus funds)and at the same time build what the rest of us need.
> > ***
> >
>
>
> Bob,
>
> This is precisely the point I was tackling – your last sentence here about getting the capitalist off our back.
>
> The way to get the capitalist off our back is to take over the means of producing wealth and convert it into the common property of everyone. Strip them of their ability to dictate terms to us.
>
> The way NOT to get the capitalists off our back is to dangle before them the carrot of some utopia (Sarda is right, the capitalists already have their utopia here and now) which we will build them on the proviso that they leave us alone in future and that they also finance building what the rest of us need.
>
> This is nuts , Bob. It stands exactly zero chance of working. I am not asserting that the capitalist is some kind of different animal to the rest of us but there is such a thing as a capitalist economy out there that operates according to its own imperatives and that competitively compels capitalists to accumulate capital out of the surplus value we produce for them. Its a systemic thing , see.
>
> The capitalist class is not going to voluntarily suicide for our benefit, overcome by some inexplicable feeling of remorse and empathy for the human condition. No ruling class ever did. There is a class struggle we have to wage and to wage it effectively we have to keep our feet firmly on the ground
>
> Robin
>
Howdy, Good points, Bob.
I just wanted to spread this around for thought,
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/al-gore/sustainable-capitalism_1_b_1312226.html
But let me say again that I do NOT think any kind of “tweaking” to the capitalist system is an answer. As the document points out, it would still be in the hands of businesses to make the suggested changes, but that is like asking the family horse to supply needed milk. A business has one bottom line, profit. And I don’t think pretending to incorporate altruistic motives into any business plan will ever work. Some entirely other system will have to be implemented if we are to retain the “Natural” treasures we sometimes overlook, such as the planet, humanity, etc.
bob, yes the rockefellers, rothschilds , browns, harryman, there are quite a few of the very wealthy which their wealth is passed from generation to generation and use to create havoc on the productive, insurance for instance, these companies have a 80% profit margin and literally no liability out, use government to extort the payment from the lowly class. government in the U
S. uses street gangs and other criminals to steal property just to keep people intimidated to purchase their insurance, government regulations such as building inspection has been used to corner industries to elite who higher the ones to do the work for half of what the would have done on their own. their scams and objectives are many, and hopefully one day they will pay for their crimes against humanity
Hi, All.
I was just preparing my registration for this year’s “Communities Conference” and thought I would pass along the Website in case anyone else is interested.
In short, the Conference is a yearly gathering of all involved or interested in alternatives to the mainstream capitalist social system, hosted by the Twin Oaks Community and the Fellowship for Intentional Community( http://www.ic.org )
Conference site:
http://www.communitiesconference.org/
Bob, if you can swing it, I’d love to meet you there.
Hi Chris,
We outnumber the families you mentioned a thousand to one, and we can beat them through the market, if we choose to. We need to team up to do this, we cannot do it each sitting at home at our computers. But we can beat them, at their own game. I am certain of it. But we have to have that 100% commitment that they have. If you agree with me you will find a way.
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But don’t do anything you will regret, we can play their game but not play as dirty as they do and still beat them simply because right is on our side and because we outnumber them. Think about it.
Cheers,
Bob
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Thanks Ted but I don’t fly and it is a long way in a small boat. One day when we have larger seagoing craft I might reach the new world for a visit. I’ve not even visited France yet and I used to be able to see it from my house in Folkestone. I hope you meet some nice folks there.
Cheers,
Bob
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Bob,
I get it. if I find anything at the conference you might be interested in, I’ll be sure to send it along.
I’m REALLY looking forward to the conference. At the moment, I care for an 83 year old parent who suffers from Dementia so I am not able to live the life of Community just yet, but I do look forward to finding and sharing in a community that understands the importance of egalitarianism and a non-monetary system.
If I ever find myself out your way again, I’ll be sure to check in with you and hopefully spend some time learning about your community.
Until then, let’s keep up this terrific conversation!
actually mulit millions to one, the divisions of people are tremendous
and as I see a quite unsurmountable outside the exception that current financial crices plumments downward possiblly the reorganization of a government may allow major correction of injustices as currently applied
Hi everyone,
What I’m sharing below may seem at first glance to go against our common dream of a society in which a person’s value is not based on monetery net-worth and that there are higher goals and achievements open to us if we can rid ourselves of the chains of capitalism, but I find that this concept may be interesting to us for a number of reasons.
It seems that Peter Thiel, billionare co-founder of PayPal,
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Thiel ] has financially seeded a non-profit institute to attempt to jump-start the concept of building “artificial islands that host sovereign nations in international waters”, with the intent that these new and as yet government-free nations will then be able to explore the infinity of ways to govern that we as a race have not yet explored. While Thiel’s personal ideas tend toward libertarianism, the concept is obviously and intentionally left open for the residents of these new nations to concieve of and practice social methods of their own choosing and/or creation.
Some of you may know of my interest in “Intentional Communities” which is based in the same desire to create pockets of society in which alternative social methods can be put to the test, but I’ve never concieved of actually creating new lands where the autonomy needed to realize these methods would be so complete.
Theils “Seasteading Institute” [ http://www.seasteading.org ] also appears to going about the whole project with some solid foresight and awareness of the same difficulties we have discussed here, that any start-up of this kind would have to allow for some kind of transitional pathway from capitalism to (in this case) whatever form of ‘Group Agreement’ may then evolve, if for no other reason than to get the darn things built and populated.
The stated vision of these floating nations is to allow for a multitude of new, peaceful, self-sustaining and politically free pocket societies which might then if successful, in time, show themselves to the rest of the world to actually be superior ways of living together, and hopefully alert the folks of the world to the dangers and negativity of our current ways.
In additon, the fact that these are new ‘lands’ and are not being taken from anyone else or posing any kind of immediate threat to the current way of life anywhere, perhaps these communitiess will be given the time and political space needed to actually grow some positive ideas to fruition, while at the worst suffering only the expected media ridicule.
Give a look; http://www.seasteading.org/about/visionstrategy/
Hi Ted,
I had this idea myself about fifty years ago, and I am a member of Seasteading. Their conference is only days away.
This is from their email to me today:
Have you taken a look at the latest additions to the speaker lineup? Do you have any questions about the schedule of events and directions for the weekend? We’ve been updating the conference website with all kinds of new information, so you can start to plan how you’ll get the most out of the weekend.
We’ve also released a limited number of tickets to the Saturday evening Bay dinner cruise, for $150 each. Pick one up for a partner, a friend, or an associate who is interested in seasteading, but is unable to attend the other conference programming. In addition to live music from Farouche, a delectable spread of food, and an open bar, the cruise will give you one last chance to bid on several silent auction items, including an America’s Cup yacht sailing adventure, a Las Vegas weekend getaway with VIP tickets to Cirque du Soleil, and a Great White Shark experience in the San Francisco Bay. You can bid on any of these items during the conference and all of the proceeds directly support The Seasteading Institute and the future of the seasteading movement.
See you in 18 days!
The Seasteading Institute
Cheers,
Bob
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Hey Bob,
It’s an interesting concept and I’m glad to see that it is being taken seriously by so many folks.
I’d be interested to know of any sub-groups who may be considering taking on a spot (Island?) within the framework and planning an attempt at a money-less nation. I guess it would be money-less within its borders and would have to have some form of financial dealings with other nations (selling hydrogen created from seawater or something), at least until there are a few more money-less nations offering necessities we could barter for.
Hi Ted,
I’m torn between escaping to an island and creating co-operatives on the mainland. There are pro’s and cons in either case. I will carry on in Wales, UK but keep an eye on what others are doing elsewhere. Hydrogen (and oxygen) can both be created from seawater and liquefied and shipped to customers in tankers that run on hydrogen or that are wind powered (or wave powered like the power generation to make the hydrogen and oxygen) This would pay for the artificial island that has floats that bob up and down to generate power. The wind drives the waves and the swell can be very powerful in the middle of the Atlantic. A large platform could even grow its own food and have a hotel. There are so many good ideas, that many of us have thought of, but we need to start lots of co-ops to start generating the money, and the interest to expand and expand until eventually all the businesses in the world are co-ops and there are no pure capitalists any more.
Cheers,
Bob
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We think alike.
I remember being impressed a few years ago by an article somewhere about how Japan was turning old ocean oil platforms into solar powered hydrogen plants.
Hi Ted,
That would make an interesting read. I wonder if they are still working.
Cheers,
Bob
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arrg, looking for the article, can’t find it… I’ll post it here if I find it.
Thanks Ted,
Cheers,
Bob
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