Anthology of Ideas

In the first paragraph, you mentioned that a system such as this is impossible because goods and resources are finite. The trouble with this statement is that all finite goods are either unnecessary to continue a life comparable to the one currently enjoyed by the top societies on the planet, or they are unnecessary period. For example, oil is unnecessary. As has been proven time and time again by many of the worlds top scientists, there are alternatives, such as synthetic oils for the lubrication of machinery. As for oil products, such as gasoline, there are many many different ideas already circulating, many of which work better than gasoline at doing the same job, which is to make things go. These alternatives are only being supressed because the monetary cost is too high. If there were no monetary cost, the argument goes away.
In your second paragraph, you mention the russian communal farms as proof that moneyless economies don’t encourage hard work. I agree, moneyless economies, when allowed to also be free, encourage smart work, not hard work. If a person has a choice between working for 12 hours in a field and building a machine, or attaining a machine, that will do the same work for him, without him having to do more than flip a switch, he chooses the machine. In current society, this would put many people out of work because the machine would enable one man to do the work of 12 with less stress. In a moneyless economy however, this would mean that the other 11 people could do what they actually want to do, the thing that makes them happy, such as exploring, building, learning, playing music, etc. A man will not work harder than his neighbor, he will work smarter. Because of this, everyone wins. The only problem comes from money. Get rid of it, the problem goes away. You also mention that in a group society, it doesn’t serve to stick out among ones compatriots. I’ve been in several groups and the only way that is true is if you stick out from the bottom rather than from the top. In a football team, the one who everyone shuns from the group is the one who always sits on the bench or the one who acts like an ass. On the other hand, the one who makes the team better is involved more in the group dynamic.
You also mention that the only way to fix the problem you’ve set up is with a merit based system, but wouldn’t this destroy the entire foundation of a moneyless society? Money is merit in the current system.
Since your third paragraph uses the same arguments I’ve already contended with, I’ll skip to the last. In this paragraph, you mention that the main goeal of the system should be ensuring all people begin life equally. The problem with this argument when taken in context with the rest of your essay is that it is impossible according to you, to do this without taking control of all children and raising them away from any outside influence that is different from any of the others. However, when allowed to work properly, letting individuals do what they love to do, rather than just putting them in a group doing the same thing where there’s no reward for doing the same thing better no matter what, when allowed to work properly, equality is a given. People do what they love to do, gaining personal merit, doing what makes them happy. I’m sure your argument for this would be that if everyone were allowed to do what makes them happy, nobody would do anything. If this were the case, the human race would have ended a very long time ago. People who are allowed to do what makes them truly happy have a longer, more fruitful life, which, in turn, means that the children of those people will have a longer, more fruitful life and, with this being said, you now know the true goal of a real socialist society. Freedom to be who you are, regardless of where you began.

1. Ali Dy Chin posted the following on December 8, 2008 at 11:59 pm.

   tmsbrdrs, I liked your comments. There are so many reasons why we can get rid of money. All the negative comments about money-less economy have solutions, just like what you have said, and some more others that we have not yet thought or said.

   Reply to Ali Dy Chin
   1. Andre posted the following on March 27, 2011 at 6:00 pm.

      Zen and the motorcycle mechanic I believe is the name of a book I read a while back. It talks about western vs eastern visions of how the world works. I spend 6 yrs working in the nuclear field (reference of understanding). Basically it came down to western science’s measurement based system, when it got down to the smallest parts of our universe, could no longer measure accurately because the size of their instruments interfered with the measuring process. So they were back to the eastern vision of using analogy to explain what is happening. It is rather obvious to me the the garbage man is of much greater value to society than a surgeon. A surgeon may save a few hundred lives but the garbage man saves us all by removing the major source of disease, the garbage.

      I have been processing the no money world for almost 40 years. Picking up a little here a little there. Both of the video clips below fit easily into my belief system. I know this will seem difficult for many to comprehend but I strongly believe that my consciousness has travelled across the universe. The limit to our physical travel is mass. to accelerate mass takes massive amounts of energy. Your consciousness is mass less so you can go anywhere in an instant.

      The key for me in all of this is education/uneducation. Once upon a time a lot of us believed that the world was flat. Once educated on how it was round basically learning new things and unlearning old things. As far as I can see there is an unlimited supply of questions without answers. There are enough quests for all of us. If we would just educate ourselves on how to live in harmony with the universe. The so called menial jobs when seen in there true light become blessings.

      Serve the space and you shall not want.

      Reply to Andre
2. chris posted the following on August 10, 2010 at 6:27 pm.

   well, those thoughts are from theoretical stand point without any reality of real world circumstances. I think the surgeon certainly should have more for his efforts than the garbage man or waitress, the problem that indeed exist isn’t that better skills pay better fortunes and are then a disadvantage to the lower working persons but in reality much sinister occurrence are a reality. Without addressing those deeds it matters not what system you set up. Certainly everyone knows in the places as the Soviet Union, some live lavishness, while some others not so lavish. In this country, insurance for instance is a pool of money used to unfairly enrich the oligarchy and depose the working masses of their wealth. Licensing has long been used to repress incomes to trained persons to the advantage of the oligarchy who have connections. These are the evils which hit at the core and will not change in society very well from within. The united nations Human Rights commission supposedly was instituted to address violations some of which should be like this and yet they have fallen dismally short of their expectations. Usually they would complain they have so many more important challenges to address, consequently they have become a non-effective organization. The problem is not that there be difference in amounts made by one or the other; that’s minor. What the lower income persons receives should not be stolen by the schemes the oligarchy devises. quite frankly some low income persons would live quite comfortably if thier were equality in services by the public sector. Do a survey somtime and determine for instance on incidences of vandalism and theft the reinstatement of the lower income persons restitution compared to the very wealthy. I can guanantee the wealtly have a 130% reinstatement compared to less than 10% of the lower working persons. This major injustice is what creates the great inequality, I dare say it is throughout the world the same.

   Reply to chris
   1. Andre posted the following on April 14, 2011 at 9:37 am.

      There is a response and there is also a responsible response. Without an educated population you will simply be replacing one oligarchy with another. In the late 60′s we went thru a similar period. We did fine with tearing into the establishment. Our failure was to be ready with a new structure to put in place. It is not a walk in the park managing 300,000,000 people. There is a way, take back the land. The land is the key to control because that is where the food comes from, If we could put in place 10,000,000 10 acre farm homesteads we would be going back to the backbone of this country the American farmer, the American farmers thru their close ties to nature, where that relationship sets the foundation of values that led us out of the last depression. The other structure that would need to be put in place would be is, a life cycle centered economy. A profit driven economy only works with the demand of an ever expanding population. Since America adopted a zero population growth strategy, the demand economy structure has faltered, and in a complete lack of foresight corporations moved to very unstable and unreliable demand markets outside the country. This move to outside of the country markets , moved the monitory supply for reinvesting eduction, to these outside countries, which has cause the failures in our current educational system. This leave America with a poorly educated population, that is easily manipulated by the large corporate interests, into supplying the military needs to defend the outside demand markets. If you are old enough to remember the oil embargo of the mid 70′s you would remember that congress mandate 35 mpg vehicles. The side effect of this was that vehicles became smaller, and less expensive, and this lower cost generated less profits and less sales tax revenues. So that when the oil embargo was lifted, then the government not only removed the 35 mpg requirement, they passed a tax based incentive to by the largest vehicles possible, thereby creating a profit windfall for not only the auto industries, but also the oil industries. This short sightedness, was like a sugar high, which created an unsupportable boom that is now collapsing all around us. I am not entirely sure if the long term perspective can be understood and appreciated unless it is lived thru. Until last year I had been on the gravy train, my buying was driven by marketed impulses that were easily affordable while I was making around $5000 a month, however now that I have adjusted my lifestyle to around $2000 a month based income, I have noticed a much more attentive approach to my purchases. I have come to realize that a significant amount of my marketed driven purchases where artificially induced needs of no real value to my “Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness“.

      If we look deeply in to all aspects of life based cycles, it becomes clear that no one portion of the cycle is sustainable without the whole. In our current situation the governed are no longer willing to grant their consent and as at the beginning of the American life cycle it may be time to abolish the current corporate driven government and institute new Government.

      From the “The Declaration of Independence”.

      “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

      Reply to Andre
3. Bbrun posted the following on January 20, 2011 at 11:38 pm.

   i am really glad to have found this site. i have been looking on facebook to find anyone who agree with the concept other than VP and ZM people. i hope maybe you have been working on how society could shift over to a moneyless society. i have read many of the comments here and i think i maybe have found a group that can work together on a means by which we could bring about this change.

   Reply to Bbrun
   1. Danny Chau posted the following on January 20, 2011 at 11:52 pm.

      Hi Bbrun,

      Change has already taken place, as more and more are joining in ‘thought’, which is the ‘first cause’ in the act of ‘creation’. We are all creators in our own right, I say this without any religious intonation, as we are the life force itself.

      What I like to share with you all is the proof of our powers which many are beginning to discover, this is what the knowledgable but self serving controlling groups don’t want you to know. As everything in our present society was not design for the betterment but was designed to control and to rule.

      We only need a small percentage of the population to kick start as a momentum and the rest will follow, here are a few videos that will help you to remember who you really are and of your abilities, enjoy:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYYXq1Ox4sk&feature=fvw

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmMNlmn1DPc&feature=player_embedded

      May you all find that peace and tranquility are already a part within you.

      Reply to Danny Chau
      1. Gail posted the following on October 30, 2011 at 3:32 am.

         Hi, Danny.

         You are right in that we are all beings of great power – and word is finally getting out. Change IS in the air – though in its beginnings. There is movement – but it is not A movement.

         A moneyless society is possible when people understand how powerful they are. When someone understands that he/she can provide for his/her own needs using thought, then responsibility for one’s own survival depends upon the effort that the individual puts into it.

         Your current economic system depends upon a people’s willingness to live in fear. It depends on a hierarchy, and it depends upon your being very harsh in your judgment of others – thus yourself. and as much as it rests in fear, it also rests in faith in something that does not exist. The current economic system calls for equality for all – as long as some are more equal than others.

         My personal experience has demonstrated that no one can harm me. Not a thug, not a group of thugs, and not an army of thugs. Once I understood this (having learned 1st hand how to protect myself using thought rather than violence), the idea of a moneyless society became readily comprehensible.

         What we, as individuals and as a society, have to learn is the ability to allow people who prefer to allow others to think “for” them to fail. As thoughts ARE our power, when we allow others to thing FOR us, we become powerless by choice. We have learned how to be powerless. We can also learn how to use our inherent powers.

         Baecause interests that ask us to serve them while they do not serve us, have given us a worldview that recoils at the thought of someone failing, we are kept enslaved to an economic system that fails us. But failing is how we learn and evolve. In that context, life is a choice – our own choice. Create your own reality – that’s what you’re here for.

         On the other hand, if I see someone who is hungry, I will share what I have because I know that I DO create my reality. What I give to others, I receive in return in greater abundance than I gave – because thoughts are things and because we are the creators of our own realities.

         Reply to Gail
4. chris posted the following on July 1, 2011 at 6:50 pm.

   i figured it out, providing we could keep the same production as of current, and thats doubtful as most people will do what they want, watch tv, -play golf, druggies will get their load of drugs to zone out, but the plus side is we will all have the equivalent of $2,000.00 worth of goods and services each year thill all runs out. a lot will depend on enough suckers that we can con into doing all the work for the rest of us. wonder if the people that have been on welfare would then be will ing to take over the load

   Reply to chris
   1. Subhendu Das posted the following on July 1, 2011 at 7:10 pm.

      Chris,

      You are forgetting one thing. All people will still have to work 40 hours a week every week. Otherwise they do not get free food and free home. There will be a credit card for every body which will have 40 hours on it. At the end of every week it will become zero. When you work another week it will become 40 again. Everything will happen just like it happens now. Only the money will become hours. There will be no need to multiply by hourly rates that we do now. Now a CEO gets $1000 dollars an hour and a janitor gets $5 an hour. In the money less economy everybody will get 40 hours. But everybody will get everything free.

      If you want to live in a big house, you hire a contractor and he will build it free for you. You still have the opportunity to live in a life style you want. Only the value or image of that life style will change. Because now everyone can have any kind of life style.

      Reply to Subhendu Das
      1. chris posted the following on July 2, 2011 at 11:45 am.

         you cannot hire acontractor foryou have nothing with which to pay him orassist him otherwise he would be better off to stay home and watch tv

         Reply to chris
      2. Subhendu Das posted the following on July 2, 2011 at 5:17 pm.

         Chris,

         This contractor will get food and shelter for free, because he is living in a money less economy. How he will get it free if he does not also work for free?

         If a person does not work for free for the society, even in the money less economy, where everything is free, the person cannot get anything free. Every time we go to get our free food we will have to prove that we have worked free for the society.

         The things that you want, someone has to produce it. Nothing can be produced magically. We have to work to make them happen; be it money based or money less economy. There is no way that we can avoid working.

         In reality people will work for more hours in money less economy than in money based economy. Just like we are all working today, Saturday, free of money. This is because we are all doing what we love doing. In a moneyless economy everybody will do what they like and therefore they will completely devote themselves for their work.

         So the contractor will not sit idle and watch TV, he will happily come and build the house for me. It seems we are still missing some basic concepts behind how money less economy will work. Please help me to understand the problems that you are thinking. Please be explicit, bold, and straight forward.

         Or as Nick suggested, we should then write the FAQ, so that we can direct every visitor to that site.

         Reply to Subhendu Das

I definitely agree on the possibility and the advantage of a money-less economy. We do not need money because money is the source of all evils.
We have more than enough biological resources. We have enough sources of energy for producing goods – e.g., geothermal, solar and wind energy, hydroelectric, nuclear energy, fossil fuels, and some others. And we have also the technology – nanotechnology, computer-based industries, and what-have-you.
What we need only now is the optimism, unity and the determination to get rid of a money-based system of economy.
Is anyone out there who knows a group or website that advocates a money-less economy so that I can give my moral support, at least, please let me know. Anyone who wants to talk with me about creating a group advocating a money-less economy, please contact me at my email – odyssey285@yahoo.com
By the way, where is the part 2 of the essay? I can’t wait to read it. Thanks a lot.

1. Rupert Russell posted the following on February 20, 2009 at 11:07 am.

   Hello Ali Dy Chin
   Check out the Venus Project.
   Best wishes
   Rupert

   Reply to Rupert Russell
   1. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on February 21, 2009 at 1:17 pm.

      Thanks Rupert. This site summarizes what I believe is the answer.

      http://www.thevenusproject.com/intro_main/whatis_tvp.htm

      Reply to Bob Wilkinson

A moneyless society will only occur by consensus. Stating that everything will be free if money were abolished is not true either; effort and materials go into any product. Once we realize how much time we waste keeping the economy functioning, we can begig to change the structure of material distribution. All one hears about today are deficits, bankruptcies, foreclosures, greed, Wall Street bailouts, and the endless financial analysts with their opinions on how to fix the economy. Our minds are constantly interrupted with commercials, and during social gatherings, the inevitable topic of conversation usually turns to money. We go to college with the goal of getting a good job that pays well. As a species we have not realized how much we waste of our lives with our endless preoccupation with money. It has become a sport also, something that computerized trading has made possible for the masses. Money has become a type of scorecard for those who are trying to get more than the next guy. I think we waste at lest half of all human effort keeping our money based economy functioning, and we’re not doing very well either. You are considered a nobody, or a kook if you think that money is the problem and should be eliminated. We have all heard the same arguement: If there were no money and everything were free, no one would work and chaos would take over. This is a true statement because we are not ready for a moneyless society yet. It will eventually happen, but not until we all get tired of keeping the present system in place. It must be a consensus, we all must agree. Trying to force a moneyless system with a strike will only cause more division. We need to educate each other, and discuss how to implement it. No one has all the answers. Until we all contribute what we can to get the necessary work done, we will have a money based system that forces us to work. Children would need to be raised with a good work, as well as play ethic, instead children are indoctrinated into a world where war, greed, and money are the primary motivating factors. We are not ready to abolish money yet because we have not learned to cooperate with each other, unless we are getting paid to do it. However a forum like this is part of the process, and gives me hope for a bright moneyless future for the people who have not yet been born.

1. chris posted the following on August 10, 2010 at 6:33 pm.

   i think half the people whoul drink get drunk or drug themselve crazy, the other half wold be out on the golf course. Wouldn’t take more than a couple months before the store shelves wold be bare. Afterall who would waste thier time plowing a field when a ready supply of drugs were wating in the pharmacy to just zone out?

   Reply to chris
   1. nick posted the following on November 30, 2010 at 4:16 am.

      Chris , we might all want a good holiday [exept those poor bastards starving and dying through lack of affordable medicines,[oxfam reckon 250,000 a day]. But I think even before the shelves get empty , we are going to realise if we dont start producing we ain t gonna eat. We aint that stupid Chris, dont underestimate us.

      Reply to nick
      1. chris posted the following on December 3, 2010 at 9:48 pm.

         maybe you I and some others would not sit around and let thing just fall apart without being appaled. However we currently have the top l0 percent and the bottom 15 percent that parasite off society some limitedly the oligarch maxximally. that 25% cause the trouble we suffer under today. If everything can be obtained just by showing up in a shop those numbers will certainly skyrocket. If it goes to even 35% it’s not likely that there would be but a few persons not starving to death. The nature of man will not change. Some people are sociopaths. There motivation is the destruction of any and all around them. They will not just go away. Quite frankly if they were delt with along with the elimination of banking insurance, lawyers and government regulations, and inheritance ( that’s how the oligarchy have passed the torch of repression over the ages)we would eliminate all of mankind problems other than naturnal disasters. We would indeed have as near a niverna as possible.

         Reply to chris
      2. nick posted the following on December 12, 2010 at 12:33 pm.

         Think some of us shluld nt count or suppose what others might or might do . The important thing is you . would you work freely in a society that give all people basic need and more freely, all people equality of access to the decision making proccesses?
         If you would then you want to take the next step forward … persuade others to do so too, and find the most expeidient way to abolish money, which is probbably at this time the 2012 World Wide Stike to Abolish money

         Reply to nick
      3. Andre posted the following on March 27, 2011 at 7:17 pm.

         To take any journey you need to take the first step and have a plan. We kind of went thru this in the late 60′s the problem was that we tore down the establishment but we failed to have a plan to put in place. Nature hates a vacuum, so that is how we got here. Those who were watching for an opportunity, jumped in and took control.

         The reality of this transition is that it will take a lot of education, on all levels, we have the tools to do it. Those who think this will just happen I suggest you watch Oliver Stones South of the Border. While change has come rather quickly to many South American countries, and they are well on their way, there is still a long part of the journey to go. I am hopeful that we have learned from our past and will build a new future.

         To some ploughing a field is a passion. The majority of people on the planet are not working on their passion they are toiling for the Masters. Again as I mention early up the page education is the way there. I would offer this to those who seem to be struggling with how this could possibly work and suggest that it may not be possible to see the outside of the box where the instructions on how to get out are, while using the tools available from the inside the box.

         Reply to Andre
      4. chris posted the following on June 30, 2011 at 8:47 pm.

         really your first step would be to remove the Federal Reserve Bank from us soil and remove your government from the world bank, you have this violation of their contract and should be easily done, if you cannot address what you fully have a right to do which would go a long way into what you wish to do you certainly will not be able to the other. The US constitution states nothing but gold and silver may pay a debt, not promissory notes of any sort. congress must see to the minting of gold at 1/32 oz or 1 oz of silver. Robber barrons are not going to stop oppression just because a few indicate they don t like it and are not willing to do any thing other than what they are told. if you can t organize within the U.S how will you unite the world

         Reply to chris
      5. Subhendu Das posted the following on June 30, 2011 at 9:41 pm.

         There are many ways to remove the central bank or the Fed. (1) We can nationalize it (2) Government can take over printing money (3) eliminate money and create a moneyless economy (4) Introduce secret ballot, instead of public ballot as we have now, in house of congress and the senate. Then these bodies will remove the Fed by secret ballot.

         But the item (3) moneyless economy is the ideal solution.

         Reply to Subhendu Das
      6. chris posted the following on July 1, 2011 at 5:15 pm.

         if you anilalated the lower social structure and the wealthy, the sociopaths then watch the balance closely you may actually be able to do this thing, but again I believe Hitler tried the same thing and got the wrath of the world and history come down on his head. Evil people are indeed in power, if that part cannot be first addressed nothing else matters.

         Reply to chris
      7. Subhendu Das posted the following on July 1, 2011 at 10:13 pm.

         Chris,

         The history of Hitler has been mainly written by the west and Israel. I believe this history will eventually be rewritten as we begin to embrace the global space time environment. I consider him the greatest human being the world has ever produced because of the following reasons.

         (1) Hitler eliminated the imperialism from the world. (2) Because of him two billion people of India is enjoying democracy today. (3) He also freed other colonies of Asia and Africa. (4) He created the United Nations (5) He gave the rocket engines to engineers of the world (6) Jews got Israel because of his actions.

         Reincarnation is a law of nature. We have souls, our body dies but souls do not. This has been scientifically proven by many authors. You can Google it and verify that. Very soon, again because of global space time effect, it will become well established in the west. There are many authentic books about it and published from UK and USA.

         Thus all the people Hitler killed, they really did not die. They were born with Hitler to accomplish together, the mission Hitler was destined to carry out. The military people and the Jews, they were all born as a part of bigger plan that includes the list given above. Those souls who helped to change the society are still here among us with different body, name, nationality, and religion. We were there then, we are still here now, and will perpetuate for eternity.

         As I have mentioned somewhere also in this page, that the life is precisely predefined. This is a law of nature also. The birth of Hitler was predicted by Nostradamus 500 years before, and also by Bible’s book of revelation (creation of Israel) some 2000 years back.

         So we can see that his birth was so profound and phenomenal that it was visible to many great souls at several time points on the global time line and over global space. Such an event in humanity should be revisited with a new and open mind.

         Reply to Subhendu Das
2. nazeer posted the following on February 8, 2011 at 1:39 pm.

   it is possible to live witout money it takes money to buy items but no to make them people need to understand that time can be stopped and the system changed. tell people we are stopping the clock and it would restart with a new moneyless system. children need to be tought to live without money. in all honesty if this comes into play the world would be a much better place to live in. imagine this a world without money is a world without crime a world without guns a world without wars a world without third world countries a world whereby people can use resources that already exist to better other people’s life in a sence that people spend time in other countries with no travel cost just filling in jobs to ensure everyone is happy. it is clearly visible the structures we already have in place created because of money all that has to happen now is structures have to be created to manage people’s lives. when i say manage people i mean time tables for different job functions. for example you hold a current position anywhere for a stipulated period which changes on a yearly basis anywhere in the world. the education system throughout the world must be very simular. if families have to move to other parts of the world their children still get the same education. i have so many ideas but no time now but i am willing to try to ensure we live in a equal world. as for the different job functions if you save lives as a doctor its only because GOD allows that to happen and it should be done on a volantery basis in the world without money. the eduction systems must be of such high calibre that everyone would know how to save lives in any sitution.

   Reply to nazeer
   1. Robert Howes posted the following on February 8, 2011 at 2:31 pm.

      Nazeer,

      How can we stop time?

      Cheers,

      Bob
      ***

      Reply to Robert Howes
      1. nazeer posted the following on February 10, 2011 at 10:01 am.

         bob interesting question. i firmly belive time can be stopped. you would never stop day from being day and night from being night but you can stop the clock that man has invented. all we have to do is tell people we are stopping the clock of old where time cost money and inventing a new system where time has no value. ok lets take another look at this todays date is the 10/02/2011 reverse the clock back to 01/01/0001 and what would happen? now to answer that question nothing would happen time would not go back everything would be the same. i can go on with my ideas but i have no time now because time at this moment cost money get my drift. cheers bob

         Reply to nazeer
   2. chris posted the following on June 30, 2011 at 8:32 pm.

      the biggest problem with money today is that it is not lawful, the medium Federal Reserve Note is private banking script. It s cost to print is 2 cents whether it is a one, five, ten, 20, hundred dollar bill or otherwise, it is lent at interest and at the end of the year working persons pay their labor in the amount of 120.00 for the use of the hundred dollar bill. that is the injustice that needs to be addressed, if that isn’t addressable today you can be sure the international bankers will never allow the other ideas people seem to want to discuss here, further the sociopath don’t break in and steal what they steal because of need, with all the social props ,people have food shelter, clothing etc just by going to the proper office. sociopaths do what they do because they are wired that way, they are not mentally ill for if they were the could be treated. they just lack comopation for others, and they can best do that by different crimes, they just as soon kill you if not the other, further about the finite goods, if you check out the garbage put out in front of the welfare houses you can see the garbage problem unbridled goods will put a land into. From my observation the average welfare household produces more than 10 working families. without constraints waste would destroy this land in no time

      Reply to chris
      1. Subhendu Das posted the following on June 30, 2011 at 9:55 pm.

         The printing power of money given to the Fed is legal. The removal of gold equivalence of money is also legal. But the cost of printing money is almost free as you have mentioned. Note that major money is not printed these days. These are numbers on the computers. When banks take money from the Fed, the Fed only changes the number in the bank’s computer database. The Fed does not print billions of dollars for transaction everyday, it only changes the numbers. Thus it is easier now.

         Reply to Subhendu Das

test

nice to see the devil pop in for a comment on the issue although he needs to work on his english a little bit.

1. Ali Chin posted the following on February 16, 2009 at 11:32 pm.

   The devil lurks as long as the world exists. But they are doomed to fail and doomed to hell – fire, forever.

   Reply to Ali Chin

I agree that it would be difficult to implement a moneyless society, with so much apathy and indoctrination in the world. I think however that people really do long for a more fulfilling life, free from the constraints of money. There are so many human resources going to waste because they want to earn enough money to have a comfortable life, rather than putting their resources and ingenuity into improving themselves and the world at large.

I concur with the idea of mobilising the world community at large, at present it is practically impossible to find any decent resources or groups around a moneyless society. What is needed is a single resource, a global website and community to give more power to the necessary ideas and concepts for our species’ and planet’s survival.

It seems to be an occasional forum posting is the only thing that search engines spit out…

Oh it’s really hard not to become really bitter and depressed with the state of the world! I need to find friends who actually give a crap about the world!
Peace.

1. Rupert Russell posted the following on February 25, 2009 at 6:42 pm.

   Andrew, Hi.
   My life was plodding along quite nicely; good business, beautiful wife, lovely kid, living the middle class dream if you will. Then someone flicked a switch in my deep subconscious, this stunningly simple but nonetheless amazing idea has knocked me sideways. It occupies my every waking thought, it is brilliant. If I happened to believed in any gods I would swear that I had found him or her, an epiphany if you will, in this one simple glorious idea.
   I have read stream after stream of claim and counter claim, 3, 4, 5 way arguments swinging back and forth, brilliant questions followed by eloquent and precise answers, stupid questions followed by polite and gentle answers and everything in between. In all my research I am yet to find a single plausible argument that a money-less is a non starter. (And don’t say human nature, that developes to fit the environment in which it thrives.)
   The human race as an organism is pretty ill, I am utterly convinced this is the cure.
   We must get organised, this idea needs to spread, take it to the next level and save the world.

   Reply to Rupert Russell
2. Lori Lee posted the following on May 21, 2009 at 2:23 pm.

   Thanks Andrew,

   Yours is reflective of many of the other kind and thoughtful posts on this topic. Something must be changing. Here I was, thinking that maybe we were all stuck in the ugly materialistic mindset of the 80s forever! Fortunately I was wrong. I think that maybe people are finally starting to understand that we should not, and indeed cannot put a price on life if we are to live in peace. Campaigns like Adbusters really drive this point home. They are the ones who created the ‘logo flag,’ in which the stars of the American flag are replaced by popular corporate logos. Also, there is one very disturbing image, also created by Adbusters, in which a newborn is tattooed with corporate logos. I am so relieved to see that we are all evolving past this brutal way of thinking and believing. If we were to eliminate the money system, wars would not be funded, nor would human trafficking. We might not eliminate crime altogether with the elimination of money, but I’m pretty certain the world would be a sweeter and more compassionate place to live if we were to do so. Finally, I am convinced that the elimination of the class system would do away with judgmental mindsets for good, and that would be a tremendous step forward. For example, I live in a poor neighborhood because I really need the benefit of rent control. Many would say that this in itself makes me a bad person. But poor people are not ‘bad’ or ‘lazy.’ They are simply down on their luck. Peace.

   Reply to Lori Lee

There’s already a huge movement started in Florida called the Venus Project. Check it out and send this link to all your friends. Read the concepts about a resourced based economy. Spread the word.

http://www.thevenusproject.com/intro_main/whatis_tvp.htm

1. Ali Chin posted the following on April 20, 2009 at 6:15 am.

   is it not just about money-making project? I doubt it.

   Reply to Ali Chin

The reason why all of us here talking about a moneyless world is because we are all attracted to this very frequency of thought. All we need to do is to open ourselves up to the fact that we are all part of the whole, part of the body of universe. As quantum physics now tells us that the world we’re living in is of a holographic nature, we are co-creators creating our every future moment. Non of this talk here are wasted as they have already formed the foundation for all others to follow or to add to. That is how our present civilisation was build, by a single thought. We all posses the same DNA of the creator who created this universe, only that we just begin to realise our infinite abilities, and no doubt just as time now seem faster, so would our own awakening on this planet.

The present economic system was devised to keep us all at bay, to tied us down so we are not free to think for ourselves. So as the present religious system, with the fearful gods whom will punish us for not ‘doing as we’re told to do’. And that people are mesmerized with money and material or even power in our temporary existence, so that we are forever trapped in this hellish dimension and mindset.

We all have a duty to remind ourselves that this life is nothing more than a lesson or a ground for spiritual growth, look beyond the illusion and free our minds.

We should be spendtime to mediate,to learn our true nature and identity of who we really are, as we are a pure energy temporarily living in a holographic body.

Look up ‘Gregg Braden’ and Maurice Cotterell (plenty more prominent scientist and spiritual writers if only we care to look) on Youtube, as their lecture can open up our frozen and preconditioned minds.

Everything that happens in our life are the result of our own manifestations, we are intrinsically linked, what we all do will affect one another. So we must take courage to accept our own action and take up responsibility for one and another, that one day to share and benefit all.

Love and peace to you all.

Who is the prophet of money anyway, is it not the Rothschilds? They perpetuate the essence of money so that they can control the world. To get out of the chain of Rothschilds and their cohorts, get rid of their power – money. Do not give importance to money. What is money anyway? Give much and you can receive much. Dont think about money. Think more of generosity and kindness and money is no value.

If you think about it, money really just serves two main functions: A standard for barter and a storage medium for leisure. Without some form of standard, there is no workable way to translate one’s efforts into the things we want or need.

For example: Say a dancer needs a washing machine. How does she acquire one? She could offer tickets to the washing machine maker, but what if he has absolutely no interest in dance? Does she poll audience members at each performance for skills or goods the washing machine guy wants? What if there is such an audience member, but they live a hundred miles away? It’s just far easier for those who appreciate dance to compensate the dancer at the performance and for the dancer to use that compensation to go buy the washing machine.

As the above example indicates, money is necessary for any civilization where people acquire specialized skill sets above subsistence ones like pottery, farming and hunting. Money is one of mankind’s most important inventions, right up there with mathematics, writing and farming.

At it’s best, money gives us a way to abstract work and view the importance, benefit or harm for human activity. Humanity doesn’t need to abolish money, it needs to abolish the concept of privacy, at least where it applies to economic activity. We would get far more benefit if we abolished economic privacy than if we abolished money. But that is straying a bit far off the original topic.

1. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on July 10, 2009 at 6:02 pm.

   KT, as an ex-MBA student, I do understand the basic principles of economics, supply and demand theory, and how it is supposed to work. Your example of the dancer and washing machine maker only further makes my point. The dancer can still dance, and the washing machine maker can still make washing machines. The only difference is that there is no money transferred. You need to imagine the world without money. The widget maker can still make widgets, the computer programmer can still crank out code, the janitor can still clean your office, but when you go to the store, you take what you need but don’t have to stop at the cash register. Quality will improve because there would be no financial incentive to make cheap products either. Demand for goods and services can be calculated by the people who are doing useless money jobs today. Also, your example of the time involved in learning to pick vegetables does not take into account whether the highly technically trained people would have any interest in picking vegetables, or the vegetable picker the intelligence necessary to learn some type of advanced skill. It is true that it takes years of study to acquire certain skills, and that we all benefit from people who have advanced talents, but does that mean that those born with advanced intelligence and parents who can send their children to the best schools should have the greatest economic advantage, while those less fortunate are forced to live in squalor? If money didn’t exist, those with advanced skills, talents, and intelligence would have no incentive to flip burgers because it wouldn’t make any difference when they went to the store, because they wouldn’t have been raised and indoctrinated with the system that we have now. We need to remove money from the equation. People would still want to be the best they could be, whether that is the vegetable picker, or astrophysicist.

   I don’t quite understand your point about the elimination of economic privacy. I do know that baseball players, movie stars, and some CEOs make millions of dollars every year, while most of us would be overjoyed with a job that paid $20 an hour. Even if economic privacy were eliminated, meaning I suppose that we could all look into company�??s financial records, and anyone�??s bank and checking account, who would have the time or desire to do so? How would that work? Would companies even be honest in the records they made public? Would people feel guilty about having millions of dollars while others are getting kicked out of their homes, when it is the people who have the millions of dollars who are kicking people out of their homes? And what are we left with? We are left with a bunch of rotting vacant houses and more homeless people. We know that inequity exists, and it is caused by our flawed human nature and is exacerbated by the economic system.

   Reply to Bob Wilkinson
   1. KT posted the following on July 10, 2009 at 9:43 pm.

      I think your world without money ignores how critical it is to entice people to perform boring jobs. Without money, no one is going to voluntarily decide that their lot in life is to pick vegetables in 100 degree heat. No fresh-faced college graduate is going to run to the nearest hardware manufacturer and ask them to let him apply his material science degree developing alloys for lock washers or electro-plate finishes for kitchen cabinet pull knobs.

      Without money, what incentive is there for anyone to do these crappy jobs? Without money, there would need to be some central authority that compelled candidates to “pay their dues” doing crap work, because damn few people would choose to do it on their own. Without money, how does society punish those who choose not to pull their weight? You can’t just hope that every individual will behave rationally or altruistically at all times. It will never happen. People get pissed off. Some extremist Christians insist the earth is 6000 years old and that we should teach our children this nonsense. It is critical that people be allowed to oppose the actions of others and one way to do that is through the power money imparts.

      As to my “abolishing financial privacy” idea, think of any simple purchase, say a hand made bowl from a local craft shop. With total financial transparency, you could pop out your iPhone (or blackberry or whatever) and instantly see a graphical representation of what effect your purchase has on the economy. I don’t know if you are familiar with the great TV series “Connections” by James Burke, but as I envision it, taking a picture of the bowl or perhaps it’s UPC symbol, you could see where the clay came from, where the pigments in the glaze came from, if the pigment manufacturer for the glaze has a good record for paying workers or disposes of hazardous waste properly.

      With this kind of detailed info, consumers could tailor their purchases in ways that seem morally right to them. If done correctly, it would give individuals tremendous power to reward good companies and punish bad ones at point of sale. Something impossible to do today. Consumers could choose to limit excessive pay for the criminally greedy by simply buying a competitors product.

      As it turns out, in looking up James Burke, I stumbled across this link to a research project that is very similar to what I’m talking about.

      Reply to KT
      1. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on July 11, 2009 at 1:07 am.

         In a world powered by the need for money as a mechanism for exchange, you are right in your contention that menial, boring, hazardous, jobs would not get done if there was no financial reward. But what I envision is that if people are educated correctly, everyone would know their potential and talents, and have the proper moral standards that would make dishonesty as difficult as stabbing one’s self. No one wants to clean septic tanks, or fill in the blank with your favorite crummy job, but if we want and need these tasks to be done, we will all need to share in the completion of those tasks. Even if we all become Einstein like geniuses, we will still need to have our toilets working. Just because someone has a degree from MIT or Harvard, that will not put him or her above having to do some of the dirty work. You ask will a central authority be assigning the jobs no one wants to do, and then try to compare the idea of a moneyless society to the ridiculous Christian claim that the world is 6,000 years old, implying that both ideas are as equally nonsensical. That is not a valid comparison, because science has proven the Christian claim is untrue, and in modern times a moneyless society has never been attempted. I’m not sure exactly how it would work – getting the dirty work done, but possibly some type of rotation of personnel; like for one month out of the year each of us would pick vegetables, fix potholes, plow snow, etc. People will not see themselves as too good, or above doing the necessary menial jobs, no matter who they are as long as they have the proper education. I’m not saying it will be an easy road, or that there will not be setbacks, or that it will happen soon. I think you present typical arguments against even considering researching the subject of a moneyless society. We should not close our minds to the concept. We have so much to gain by the eliminating of money. That is true financial freedom.

         The James Burke web page looks interesting. I will look into it at a later time. In a moneyless society there would be no need to abolish financial privacy, because there would be no incentive to manufacture inferior products, or have manufacturing processes that degrade the environment. Most pollution can be eliminated if there wasn’t the financial burden that goes along with being “as green as possible.” Companies, factories, coal fired plants will not clean up their act because it cuts into their bottom line. If there were no bottom line, there would not be the incentive to degrade the environment in the quest for profit. Excessive pollution would be eliminated, simply because we have the technology today to do it, and it is the right thing to do, instead making the excuses companies make today that “green technologies�?� will make them unprofitable and make them go out of business, or that we just can’t afford it because it will cost too many jobs. Money is obsolete and we need to open our minds to the new possibilities that a moneyless society presents.

         Reply to Bob Wilkinson
      2. KT posted the following on July 11, 2009 at 1:58 am.

         You ask will a central authority be assigning the jobs no one wants to do, and then try to compare the idea of a moneyless society to the ridiculous Christian claim that the world is 6,000 years old, implying that both ideas are as equally nonsensical.

         Clumsy wording, admittedly, but it was too late to take it back.

         I�??m not sure exactly how it would work – getting the dirty work done, but possibly some type of rotation of personnel; like for one month out of the year each of us would pick vegetables, fix potholes, plow snow, etc. People will not see themselves as too good, or above doing the necessary menial jobs, no matter who they are as long as they have the proper education. I�??m not saying it will be an easy road, or that there will not be setbacks, or that it will happen soon. I think you present typical arguments against even considering researching the subject of a moneyless society. We should not close our minds to the concept.

         Rotation doesn’t work. Back when I was a department supervisor, I tried rotating shifts and tasks and everyone hated it. People for whom work is a job, not a career, prefer to have a defined set of duties they can master. Once mastered, these people work more or less on autopilot and that’s what they seem to want. I tried for a time to get the autopoilot people enthused about some aspect of the job, but after awhile, it just started feeling too Opra-like. I stopped the rotations, defined the jobs and everyone was much less stressed after that.

         It’s fine to think, in the abstract, about a moneyless society, but at some point, you have to end the brain storming sessions and at least try to come up with concrete strategies to bring that society about.

         In your opinion, what is the basic framework for starting such a process? You’ve mentioned education, but what exactly will education focus on? What else?

         Reply to KT
      3. Rupert Russell posted the following on July 11, 2009 at 1:57 am.

         It is becoming apparent that this argument rages across many blogs and discussion sites.
         KT are you aware of Jeremy Rifkind? He wrote The End of Work. The idea that in generations to come simple manual tasks will still be performed by humans is laughable. Cybernetics and advanced robotics and automation have all but eradicated the use of manual labour in manufacturing. Most people now work in the service industries and those jobs are slowly being cybernated as well. 100 years ago it took 10 to feed 100, it now takes 3 to feed thousands.
         One of the main reasons for this global financial crisis is the loss of real purchasing power. The banks inflated this credit bubble to maintain liquidity in the system. Many economists argue that capitalism and cybernetics cannot coexist. As the use for human labour dwindles so does the capitalist ideal. Modern economies have been fighting against the inevitable since 1971, some say earlier than that. More and more people are beginning to understand that this current socioeconomic model is unsustainable and that anything less than a paradigm shift in the fundamental structure of the global capitalist design is a futile waste of existence.
         As one system dies, as this one clearly is, it will have to be replaced. But with what? To get something we have never had we must do something we have never done.
         Peace.

         Reply to Rupert Russell
      4. KT posted the following on July 11, 2009 at 2:22 am.

         Thanks for the book ref. Sounds interesting, I’ll check it out.

         The general question of automation and cybernetics brings up the problem: What will be left for humans to do once everything has been automated? We have evolutionary algorithms which are able to design novel circuits, robotic surgery, self driving vehicles, Ray Kurzweil talking about the impending singularity when computer intelligence surpasses human intelligence.

         I’m not really worried about a Terminator scenario, but what happens when there is nothing humans can do better than machines? Don’t know if you’ve ever taken a sabbatical, but after the first month or so, it gets really boring. People need to feel they make a difference, but with automation besting even highly trained humans in every field, there really will be nothing useful for us to do.

         Reply to KT
      5. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on July 12, 2009 at 1:36 am.

         Rupert, thanks for the post. I still have a lot to learn. I find Jeremy Rifkind’s synopsis, click the link below to read, on the “End of Work” to be but more evidence on the obsolescence of money and the need to transition to a moneyless society.

         http://www.basicincome.com/basic_rifkin.htm

         Reply to Bob Wilkinson
      6. KT posted the following on July 12, 2009 at 1:38 pm.

         Rupert, This intrigues me. Do you have any names for a few of those economists? I’d like to read what they have to say.

         Many economists argue that capitalism and cybernetics cannot coexist.

         Reply to KT
   2. Sixpm posted the following on July 10, 2009 at 11:49 pm.

      Totally agree with Bob, well said. I’m ready for such a change, the hardest struggle in this change is our mindset. As our present system is based on the total denial of our spiritual nature we all inherit. We will need to educate that we are just a ‘ghost in a shell’ temporarily living a physical journey, the purpose of this is entirely focus on spiritual growth.
      So much of our efforts in life is wasted to accumulate money and wealth that ultimately we can not take away, how sad and stupid is that, this is pure madness with no sign of any intelligence IMO.

      Reply to Sixpm

Hi KT

To answer your points one by one

1) I actually concur with Otto Neurath who made the point that calculation in kind was in fact the only proper basis on which evaluate environmental impacts. Evaluation is of course in itself a subjective process but in a capitalism it is constrained by an objective system of market prices which guide decisionmaking and mediates between – or if you like, distorts – our subjective evaluations – and the environmental phenomena under observation

2) Genuine communism or socialism – not to be confused with USSR-style “state capitalism” – is not about common ownership of possessions. I no more want to assert my ownership to your toothbrush than you would, my T shirt. Its about MEANs of production only.

3) The vast majority of crime is property related – directly or indirectly. That is another good reason for wanting to get rid of a money-based system. Capitalism endorses individualistic egoistic behaviour and it is not surprising that some “enjoy breaking the rules” for that reason. I actually think that in a genuine communist society the force of moral sanction would be far stronger becuase of the underlying convergence of economic and social interests would make for greater clarity of the rules of social intercourse. Of course, there will still be some crime I agree – we are not talking about a utopia just a better way of running society – and although it is difficult to predict, I would imagine a much more humanised system of justice would come into play which would inter alia would seek to understand and address what it was that prompted the criminal to commit the crime

4)I am not saying that everyone’s contribution to society will be valued equally. To the contrary! The point is that a system of prestige or social esteem would be based on your contribution to society and not what you take out of it – conspicuous consumption (which would be meaningless anyway where everyone has free access to goods and services). So I am actually in accord with you when you say “I don�??t believe we will ever reach this level of egalitarianism.”. But what you dont realise is that that is actually quite powerful argument in favour of a non-money economy. It provides an added inducement for people to work -to gain the esteem of their fellows – in the absence of so called monetary incentives. In fact anthropologists have long noticed how systems of prestige have operated in different societies on totally different principles to capitalist society.

5) Regarding luxuries, far be it from me to suggest that indulgences would be prohibited. The important things is that the production of luxury goods must surely take second place to the satisfaction of basic needs. There has to be some kind of hierarchisation of needs or wants in that respect. I dont see anything wrong in your wanting to take off in a sailboat. Thats quite legitimate as a leisure activity. I am not some prudish killjoy in that respect. But have you considered other possibilities. For example you dont need to actually own the sailboat to use it. A large number of luxury objects like expensive sailboats and even cars langush in disuse becuase they are the exclusive property of some individual who couldnt be bothered. Here I am perhaps slightly contradicting myself when I said personal possessions would not be commonly owned. There may perhaps be a kind of grey area between means of production and personal possessions and a luxury boat might be an example of this

Cheers

Robin

A stateless, moneyless society is based on abundance instead of scarcity. Our current system expends a lot of energy to create scarcity. Abundance is based upon harnessing solar power, full automation, reduction of needs, and gift economy.

About money. it is important to learn that Rothschilds are the masters of money. They are the cause of our poverty and misery. Get rid of money and the power of Rothschilds is gone.

1. Robin Cox posted the following on July 12, 2009 at 9:51 am.

   No I disagree Ali. The Rothchilds are not the “cause of our poverty and misery” Quite apart from anything else there are other very wealthy individuals besides them. It is not a tiny handful who are responsible; it is we – the vast majority – who are responsible in the sense that we acquiesce in or sanction the existence of a capitalist society in which this tiny handful enrich themselves at our expense. They only appear to stand tall because we are on our knees. It is time to change that

   Reply to Robin Cox

I am quite reserve in the idea of building the money less society and in fact, i don’t agree at least in this moment.

1. do we really need a money-less society?
2. will such society solve our problem? or in another way round it is when our problems resolved, this society will exist?
3. can our problems really be able to resolved eventhough we have changed as well as on our edcucations…. how a consenses be reached? by majority again?
4. how is such society differs from an Utopia which only exists in our imaginations?
5. is money the root of our problems? or are we missing the point?
6. can we just think small rather than such big and board?
7. should we put more resources on discussing and revealing unfair policies or suggestions which can help improve the community we living in?
8. without money and without people who eg. work as investment bankers or other people who earn in financial field rely on spaculations, will someone spaculate on other things when there is no money?
etc etc…
9. Money in the very basic sense server as a standard to make us quantify our service and products produced, which make us easier and more convenient to exchange what we need from others who have them.

Imagine I am a hungry dancer, without money, should I perform a dance while i am starve to death but for a piece of bread in front of the baker? If the baker don’t need a bread, should i go on to another baker who wants to watch dance performance for him to give me the piece of bread? how many baker i have to go before i find the baker who need my dance performance?

Money can just eliminate those problem, makes our live easier, save our time and resources in doing what we want to, instead of wasting our efforts. Without money, as per above, our lives is just difficult.

Without money as an unit or standard for exchange, another measurement might exists like gold / oil / natural resources / or in the very beginning we use shells / or even somehow in the barter economy, who own the most land, most men, most maybe even apples!……..

why money-less society can help? the idea behind building a money-less society might be good. (subject to further discussion). however, the direction to have a money-less society can be wrong.

Should the society be money-less or greedy-less or power-less or wealthy-less or meat eater-less or desire-less or lazy-less? which one is better? or actually greedy-less / lazy-less / voilent-less socity more important than a money-less society?

People fight for money only? how about those compete for power? envy? what makes a person selfish? money again? or can be other things or issue? Painter A can envy the other painter B who paints better than himself or envy the other painter C who received more admirations even though he is just a freshman… not for money..

If we are moving others to go to the wrong directions, which base on our mistaken judgements / misunderstandings, we might still be doing bad. We must be very careful in initiating or promoting any movements eventhough we are all aiming to build a good and better society.

Lets discuss.

1. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on July 13, 2009 at 11:33 am.

   As I have said before, I don’t claim to have all the answers, or really know how such a complete shift in material distribution methods will take place, only that is such a change were to take place, the vast majority of people would have to agree on such a system.

   You ask do we really need a moneyless system. The reason I believe so is evidenced in the current economic situation the world finds itself. There are children who need to be taught, and teachers ready to teach them, but the budget cannot allocate the funds. There are houses sitting vacant and vast numbers of homeless people, most of which would rather be working than living behind a bush or down by the river, because the homeless person cannot find a job, mostly because of automation and outsourcing. There are vast types of infrastructure that need to be built or repaired, a great pool of labor and materials waiting to be used, but the finances are not available. These are but a few examples of the problems that the money system has created. I believe money used to be necessary, but it is now obsolete. We waste too much effort trying to force an unworkable system that creates boom and bust cycles. The economic system is the source of much human misery, and really only benefits the few percent who control the vast majority of economic wealth.

   It is my opinion the we could have a much more efficient system, and happier human race, if we did not have to stop at the cash register on the way out of the store, or fill out timecards, get checks from the payroll department, deposit them in a bank, pay bills, balance the checkbook, pay taxes, get loans, etc. It is an unnecessary process that makes everything about life more difficult.

   I really don’t expect to convince anyone of my arguments for a moneyless society. It seems that we could discuss it forever and never come to an agreement, as evidenced by the posts in this blog. Perhaps it will take some worldwide cataclysm that forces such a system into place because of the difficulty that people have even considering a moneyless system. It seems so simple to me, but I am just one person, and not everyone thinks like I do, not that I am better or worse than you or anyone else, because I am not. Money seems to be a part of our DNA, something I have reluctantly learned to live with and accept, like the handicapped person who accepts being paraplegic, but hopes for a scientific breakthrough. Like the handicapped person who dreams of walking, who cannot mend his nerves, I am in a similar place with my vision of a moneyless society, with no way of really knowing how to get such a system started.

   Reply to Bob Wilkinson
   1. Sixpm posted the following on July 13, 2009 at 11:51 am.

      We are certainly not lacking in will for a moneyless society, only in numbers, which is on the increase from the number of discontent people all over the globe. All we have to do is to wait patiently for this to collective thought energy to gather momentum, no one expects the Berlin wall could come down so swiftly did we?

      Reply to Sixpm
   2. Hecate posted the following on July 13, 2009 at 12:44 pm.

      I would like to give kudos to Bob Wilkinson for introducing compassion to this debate. I think we need more people like him in the world, with a very healthy balance between head and heart. At the moment, we live in a society dominated by brutal rationalizations, whether it be for war or money. If someone in your family is murdered, are you really going to rationalize away why it happened? Most likely not. You will feel grief and then try to work through it. But we do rationalize violence in society, perhaps because it is simply easier for us, even though there lies the path of denial. Right now we are experiencing a more subtle kind of violence, what with bankers or government officials paying themselves whatever they feel is due them. Of course it becomes a little less subtle when it comes to children starving.

      I think we can do better than be clever monkeys playing around with money or making tech gadgets for yuppies. Speaking of technology – why not make it more available to under-served communities? Tech companies could easily set up charities to do so, yet they don’t. There may be a scant few non-profits who set up such programs.

      I feel that these times call for eradicating what Buddhists call the ‘monkey mind.’ To me that means refraining from being distracted from superficial issues in our lives and looking for deeper meaning as to why we are here. I don’t know about anyone else here, but I doubt I’ll be on my death bed bragging about how much money I had, or having held a position in X corporation as some haughty big-whig fat cat. Most people look back over their lives and ask themselves whether they had meaningful relationships with others. Most who are not automatons, anyway.

      I treat my money the way it should be treated – with total detachment. I do my best not to put emotional value on it. I save easily, because I realize that dirty dollars usually have more meaning for others than they do for me. And when I have any extra, I do indeed give to charities. I am not saying I’m better than anyone for doing so. I am just suggesting that we not be so attached to money, which is a completely imaginary construct, as so many things in our delusional society are.

      Reply to Hecate

Hi Joram,

The question of money is not irrelevant, it’s extremely important. Unless moneyless society enthusiasts can address the criticisms of capitalists, head on, there’s not a snowball’s chance in hell that this issue will ever graduate beyond comment threads on backwater discussion boards.

Even with solid arguments, money is woven so tightly into the fabric of society, that opinion makers will be able to casually dismiss the idea of a moneyless society, by rolling their eyes, twirling their finger next to their temple and a silently mouthing “looney toons.”

If you want a moneyless society, think about how to counter the arguments of die-hard capitalists.

Re comments from all:
First I do really admire Bob for a very kind and positive insight for a money-less society. I totally agree with Sixpm as well saying we need more people like Bob having such good mind-set for a better world.

For myself, I do not rule out the possibilities of a money-less society and I do not disagree or disapprove such society as long as it improves our standard of living.

As per my understanding after reading the above comments, what bothers us a lot and what makes people like Bob come up with the intention for a money-less society is mainly about the inequality and unbalance distribution of resources that happen everyday on Earth.

The inequality is kept being more serious, which worsen under the operation of our current monetary system. Small group of people with power use their dirty and corrupted means to control, to influence, to monopolize our resources for their own interests.

I do not rule out the possibility of a money-less society but I doubt its effectiveness in helping us solve the problem of inequality, in helping us raise our standard of livings. This is the reason why I have so much queries on the operation and by what means we can reach this state?

I doubt its effectiveness doesn�??t mean I am satisfied with the world nowadays and the monetary system among all of us. I doubt its effectiveness doesn�??t mean I am corrupt or dishonest. Also, it doesn�??t mean I want to keep few million and billion of hard cash at the end of my time in this world.

I doubt even if we have reached a vast consensus on a money-less society, will inequality still exists and why and why not?

Lets take an example, an adult who is over-weight (eg. 400 lbs) is unhealthy. He eats junk food everyday, eats a dozen pieces of cakes full of cream daily, eat lots of meat a day, only drink full fat milk, no water, no exercises, etc..

In order to become healthy again, this guy has to change his eating habit all over. With much much less calories a day, but how? Start from the creamy cakes! He eats fewer and fewer cakes a day until one day he eats no more cake. He is still overweight although slightly better than before. Then he drinks less full fat milk and more water a day, his condition improves but still overweight�?�.. Finally, he back to a balanced diet but still not healthy, because he does no exercises at all�?�.

The above story is what I want to indicate, for a society without money, just the life of this over-weight guy without creamy cakes, will the society be a healthy society just by becoming money-less? Will inequality, unfairness, discriminations etc. etc. disapper and everyone lives happily, harmoniously, co-operatively and safely? Obviously not.

Money is just one of the means and elements that lead to the current issue we face, but not all. A piece of cake even its full of cream can not be harmful if you just take one or two occasionally. Just like money, its not evil if you make use of it wisely. Language is essential because it is a way to communicate, but we all can use language to say bad words of others, spread gossips, etc.

Self-consciousness, respect, fairness, and a caring society are few criteria that build up an utopia. We work bit by bit to march toward this direction.

Hope you all understand the above and trust debate is always essential for us to reach our same goal for a better world, with or without money-less society. Through in-depth discussions, our plans and directions can always be made more refined with less flaw.

1. Sixpm posted the following on July 15, 2009 at 6:30 am.

   Hi Dennis,

   The reason the guy got fat in the first place is that our food manufacturers is only interested in profit and not our health, so they made the food without the ‘correct’ intend. These corrupted corporation works hand in hand to produce food that is harmful to us and the same people then supplies drugs that suppose to keep us ‘healthy’. I believe that there are lots of illness can be cured with our pharmaceutical companies, but they also has chosen just to keep us on a ‘drip’ to squeeze every penny where they can.

   Ever thought that most of our worlds government use war to ‘make peace’, they sell arms to keep smaller countries in ‘democracy’?

   Most people are just too naive (including me for a long time), thinking others would behave with dignity and honesty. I’ve now learn to see the world in a different light, all the more we should waken others to see where we are heading with the present economic policies. I’m sure when these fact are exposed and becomes common knowledge, most people will begin to demand for a better system.

   Reply to Sixpm
2. Toby posted the following on July 15, 2009 at 12:16 pm.

   Hi Dennis,

   see money as a rationing tool. Goods and services need to be rationed when they are available in scarcity, not abundance. From the coupling of money with scarcity arises all sorts of perceptions about life and how it works: what competition is, that greed is “normal,” that success is having more than others, etc. So money is more than just a neutral tool. Not only is it inseparably joined with scarcity and therefore want, it inescapably becomes a very potent symbol for things like status and success, and shapes our understanding of what those things are, not to mention “value.”

   Society without money would necessarily be profoundly different. No conspicuous consumption, no marketing, no competition for scarce resources, no nations, no “growth,” total transparency in the public domain, and so on. It is impossible to know what this would do to human behaviour, but the effects of abundance on our civilisation would be deep and far reaching indeed.

   But none of this means an absence of problems. Indeed, the challenge of living a life which has to be shaped by your own imagination and creativity is a daunting one. No job telling you where to be and what to do, no boss, no “father-figure” state. Just freedom. Think of how people cope with retirement, how they cope with a sudden lottery win. It’s not that easy. So post-scarcity is not post-problems, just new problems. As with all change some problems will be solved, new ones introduced, and so it will go on forever. Without problems and challenges, life would be boring. To expect a money-less society to deliver nirvana is naive and missing the point, to say it is a bad idea because it does not deliver nirvana is also missing the point. It is simply the next logical step of humanity’s progress, should we manage to survive this current set of issues. Our challenge is to make it work as best we can.

   Peace
   Toby

   Reply to Toby
   1. Rupert Russell posted the following on July 15, 2009 at 2:21 pm.

      Well said Bro.
      Peace

      Reply to Rupert Russell
3. Alvin posted the following on July 16, 2009 at 9:16 am.

   Dennis, very well written

   It’s ironic Sixpm replied you, “Most people are just too naive (including me for a long time), thinking others would behave with dignity and honesty.” Aren’t that “dignity” and “honesty” the fundamental for starting an money-less economy?

   I feel that it becomes a discussion on a new “religion” instead of a project. People discuss in what they believe emotionally instead of thinking it rationally.

   Reply to Alvin

Hi all

I was thinking about making a web site/forum specifically for “moneyless society” discussions and while testing out various domain names for availability, I stumbled across this site and the Amazon link to the book. Looks like exactly what we’ve been talking about.

Thought others might be interested…

1. Toby Russell posted the following on July 17, 2009 at 7:05 am.

   Hi KT,

   the direction you are exploring there in those links is more of a “fresh” look at money and how to deploy it beneficially. I want to look more deeply into all that, but my impression at first blush is that the analyses fail to ask the question of whether money, or rather any medium of exchange, is necessary at all.

   Conventionally, economics is the study of the following process:

   production –> exchange –> consumption

   Is production –> consumption at all possible? Isn’t that what nature does? I think nature does this: production –> consumption –> “waste” –> production. That seems to me the way to go. All the answers are there in nature. Nature has already cracked sustainable “growth” and we should take our cues from it.

   Why do we need a medium of exchange? Incentive? I for one (of many) don’t buy this. Scarcity? That’s a design issue. Human nature? No way. Homo sapiens sapiens lived for tens of thousands of years — the majority of it’s time on Earth — without money. Money was “invented” to deal with scarcity. Now scarcity can be designed away, IF we can learn sufficiently from nature, and money uninvented.

   If you have money you have scarcity and exchange. If Rifkin is right and only 2% of the world’s working-age population will be employed in manufacturing by 2020, what can humans exchange (labour) to get their money? What hope for purchasing power? The service industry is being slowly decimated by AI and other technological advances. What room for these facts in the new-money/alternative money thesis? These are very important questions.

   If you have money you have scarcity, by definition. If you have scarcity you have an inbuilt pressure towards corruption — having more money is better than having less. Over time any “good” exchange tool can be altered, tweaked, and eventually fall under the power of those types of human who have it now, who excel at manipulating it.

   Peace
   Toby

   Reply to Toby Russell
   1. KT posted the following on July 17, 2009 at 6:33 pm.

      Hi Toby

      The more deeply I look into this, the more complex it becomes and sites like the one I linked to indicate that there is a lot of good thinking going on. As the saying goes “we need to learn to walk before we can run” and more intelligent means of exchange may represent our first halting steps toward something better.

      As to nature, I think we need to be careful what models or ideals we project upon it. Multicellular organisms are proof that cooperation and specialization have enormous benefits, but what is also obvious is that, with the respect to individuals, nature is completely unsentimental. If a newborn (or old, or sick) gazelle isn’t quick enough, it dies an excruciating death as a hungry lion sinks sharp claws deep into it’s body, ripping off chunks of living flesh and tearing out it’s throat. One of nature’s most important “mediums of exchange” is death. Another is parasitism. Not exactly “fluffy bunny” models for a new society.

      According to this Wikipedia “history of money” timeline, it seems in the early days, money was basically just a receipt. Where money started to go wrong was when it evolved from a system for representing things of value into a system for measuring the value of things.

      Once that happened, we started using it to measure the value of time, knowledge and with the advent of patents, ideas themselves. That’s where things really started to go haywire. Nowadays, it is accepted, without question, that if a high powered CEO and a cube rat were sitting side by side, studying the exact same spreadsheet, the thoughts running through the CEO’s head are somewhere between 50 to 350+ times as valuable as those running through the cube rats head. (as evinced by their relative pay)

      Most of mankind’s most important ideas earned the discoverer nothing. They may have sold books outlining the ideas or gotten positions, but the ideas are free for all humanity to use.

      It seems like a good first step toward reform would be to show the fallacy of the “time is money” and “ideas are money” concepts.

      Reply to KT
      1. Toby posted the following on July 18, 2009 at 3:30 am.

         Hi KT;

         As to nature, I think we need to be careful what models or ideals we project upon it.

         We are nature. There is nothing which is not nature. “Unnatural” is an illogical word. The dichotomy you describe between the ruthlessness of nature’s attitude to some individual organism versus the harmony and balance of the collective whole is valid, but not the whole story. What I really meant by learning from nature (which is a problematic expression given how I opened this paragraph) is more on the mechanical, problem-solving side of things. Efficiency and redundancy, and so on. Like a spider’s web is stronger than steel ounce for ounce, but is brewed at room temperature out of water and enzymes and sugars (apparently). Technological stuff. Check out Bernard Lietaer on this. When it comes to philosophy and paradigms and whether nature is ruthless or unfair or fair etc, that is a different domain, an intellectual exercise with a different set of pitfalls and benefits.

         That said, I am open to the idea that the road to a true resource-based economy might be paved with alternative types of money to the brutal fiat currency we enjoy today. Jacque Fresco recognizes that money will be an inescapable part of the transition. How to keep things fair and open and as incorruptible as possible is therefore a very important part of the process, walking before running as you say. So I am all for that analysis but worry too that serious technological unemployment will be upon us sooner than we think. Currently people suggest some other employment sector will open up alongside manufacturing and services, but do not know what that might be. Rifkin suggests the civic sector, but that would be funded by government. Where will government get enough taxes from to pay civic sector workers if only 40% or so are employed by the private sector?

         You mentioned in an earlier post that you would be interested in setting up a website along the lines of a discussion forum for this important arena. Me too. I imagine a portal to all strong information and analysis pertinent to this topic, where people can come to keep up to date, where research is made easier and is more focussed. If you want to collaborate on that I’d be willing to talk it over: tobyhdr@yahoo.co.uk,

         Peace
         Toby

         Reply to Toby

Please read my comment at the part 2 of this essay – the importance of spiritual side of discussion with the material world. Discussing material world bears nothing if we exclude the spiritual because they are complementary. And the only complete school of material and spiritual world is Islam. Read about Islam – the real Islam.

Joram, your english is good when you want to. But you usually distort it to distort the serious discussions here. You are a paid mercenary, I’m sure. Wait for your turn in the burning Hell. I don’t want to waste my time with your sick mind.

1. Sixpm posted the following on July 18, 2009 at 4:33 am.

   Dear Ali and Joram,

   We are all part of the whole, as in the absolute nothing escapes the ‘universal consciousness’ or ‘god consciousness’. I understand that we are all at a different stage of our spiritual development, thus we are all clouded with subjective distortion which is recognised as ‘discrimination’.

   Our ego and pride is the product of our lower physical/animal nature, and until we become more aware of our higher spiritual self, we will always see ‘others’ are separate from the ‘me’ or ‘I’. This extends to everything including our limited subjective ideals or beliefs, and is exactly the intolerance that mankind still deeply entrenched with.

   The illusion of the separate self is one of the major mental stumbling block that we need to work on, what differentiate between animals and human apart from our natural survival instinct is the capability of reason and free will, above all of this, the recognition of the higher spiritual self which is love. The love here I’m taking about has no bounds, it is encompassing for all humanity, at whatever stage of their spiritual evolution.

   Although I was brought up with man made religion by my family, but my reasoning mind soon helped me to disassociate myself with their unreasonable doctrines. The main core of all man made religion should be base on love and total acceptance of all humanity. But instead all the spiritual messages was unfortunately tinted with man’s own lower esteemed nature.

   I dare to ask a simple question to all religious minded people, of the billions of years since the creation of our universe, when, where and whom created the religion that you believed in at present? If these ‘GODS’ is still in existence, why they never appear and lead us the way with love and peace now, instead this ‘GOD’ would expect us all to believing in ‘him/her’ without any questions, or to condemn and sentence all those who don’t believing in it’s doctrines to ‘HELL’?

   All forms of superstition and doctrines are nothing but a collective of subjective interpretations from the uninitiated individuals over the centuries. Our duty must be to open our minds and question everything that we have been told, and should never taken anything for granted or at it’s face value without investigation.

   Most of the present religion’s god is a vengeful one, unjust, very unforgiven and unfair and are biased to love only the ones whom would obey and/or are scared into submission by fear.

   We must all take our first step to forgive and to forget ‘other selves’ for there unconscious actions which in turn also forgiving a part lodged deep down in each one of us.

   Whenever we see or noticed something ‘wrong’ in ‘other selves’ is nothing but a reflection and interpretation of our subjective thinking mindset. I wish each and everyone of us could put down this unjust differences and allow others happily to live with their beliefs or whatever their views maybe.

   Love and peace.

   Reply to Sixpm

What’s below is from emails between the two Bobs:

Hi There Bob W.
Thanks for writing again, I might have forgotten as I have rather a lot going on at present. My SUV, as they call them, needs a little bit more welding before taking it back to the test place for retest. I only bought it to tow the mini digger trailer. 420 miles only since 12 months ago. It is only the silencer (muffler) that needs welding (or throwing away which I’m reluctant to do).
***
Anyway, I’ll reply to you before I resume that almost finished task (and the million other tasks required of me. I agree that there is too much squabbling on forums and not enough serious business.
***
The way in which any group of people can choose not to use money is by not buying and selling to each other. Whether it is two people or ten thousand doesn’t matter. Think of a family situation in which the members don’t pay the one who does the cooking etc. Maybe they should. In dealing with the outside world any group has to use the currency of that world, like dollars and so on.
***
So let us imagine my first circle city of ten thousand men, women and children, not one of them with a pocket full of money or bank account (unless they chose it). Everything in that circle city free to eat or use, so no need to have money in pocket. just get on with your life without any money worries. Your life would still be divided between eating, sleeping, working, recreation etc as now, but without the need for money.
***
Want clothes to wear, go to the clothes store, take them, or to the tailor, have them made. Same with everything that city makes. Want food, go to one of many refectories and choose and eat, or order something different. For the x number of hours per day when you choose to work, you cook or clean or grow veg, or fix things or make new things and so on. No need to have a bank, an account, a wallet, an accountant, pay taxes and bills, no need for most laws that are to do with money and so on.
***
All this we can do as soon as we choose in any size of group we choose. Our pooled resources will determine exactly how each group goes about this. Each person or family entering this kind of agreement will have different resources, and the financial resources in particular will determine what they can buy to make their chosen lifestyle possible. Those with my level of wealth could choose quite a grand setup, others might get help from a richer group.
***
So let us assume two or more groups were set up with this in mind. They could then choose to deal with each other on a money basis or moneyless (give and take), which saves on accounting, and also allows an interconnectedness with mutual exchange of personell, such that they are practically one group, but still autonomous also. These groups, small or large will make and mend for the outside world and gain money from the outside world for their goods and services, for which they will be paid in real money. Each group can then decide what to buy from the outside world for the members, and stock the shelves accordingly.
***
There will be no need for the regular businesses to set up stores in these groups. If a member wants something from an outside store and gets the agreement of the group then it will be bought for them, but the group would have to be satisfied that this purchase was justifiable. Otherwise the person would have to find some other way to fund the purchase. I would like to think the circle cities individually or as a network would try to make everything rather than buy it in, butt there would be no point of making anything complex that would take say a million person hours if it could be bought for the equivalent of a day’s wages.
***
What they can of course do, as they become richer by selling what they produce, is to buy up the companies that make the things they require. Small companies are cheap enough to buy and can be run just the same but provide goods and services are basic cost. Or those companies can be run with unpaid labour or part money part goods and services, in effect becoming part of the group so that the goods and services become free to the group.
***
As the new network becomes bigger it can buy up bigger companies. Ultimately the new network could buy up all the companies and all the land, all the houses and everything and then the whole world would be moneyless. But to say let us abolish money then everything else follows, I think, is a nonsense. Who are we to abolish everyone elses money and assets? And why wait for an agreement from everyone before starting down this road? Capitalism didn’t wait, it just developed, and we can just develop this new way of organising ourselves. And that is my aim. I am funding it as much as I am able, but I need others to join me.
***
It has to be done on a voluntary basis, and I am volunteering. I am choosing to make my wealth and experience available to others. Now I need those others.

Cheers,

Bob
***

PS. If you are still not convinced that it has to be this way round could you please point to any flaws in my argument. If there are any real flaws I need to know what they are so I can try to find solutions. Also, if you do want to visit, with your daughter, you are most welcome to a free stay here, now or any time in the future, we’ll find free accommodation for you.

From: Bob Wilkinson
To: robertcircle1@yahoo.co.uk
Sent: Tuesday, 28 July, 2009 7:09:08
Subject: Discussions on moneylessness

Hi Bob.
****

This is the other Bob from the Anthology blog with it’s discussion of a moneyless society. It seems that all our comments have been erased, leaving only the original comment.

http://anthologyoi.com/blogish/beyond-the-socialist-dream-a-money-less-society-part-i.html

Anyway, I live in California and would love to travel to Swansea Wales, but I can’t do so in the near future. I’m a 56 year old single father of a 12 year old girl and have to stick close to home for obvious reasons. Robin Cox and a few others on the site seemed to have something to say, but I was concerned by the squabbling between a couple of the bloggers.

You describe circular cities that will each choose to or not to use money. I’m not sure if each city can be completely independent and not need something from outside its resources, with other circular cities that would choose or not to choose to use money. I think everybody would have to have a moneyless society or it just won’t work. I’m of the persuasion that it will take either a cataclysmic event or renaissance where the light bulb goes on in most people’s minds for any type of moneyless society to occur. I know your time is limited to what you can reply to, but I wanted to touch bases with you anyway.

Send me some links as I love to look at other’s ideas.

hope all is well with you,

Bob

PS. Anyone can join in.

Your circular city concept that operates as an independent entity with little or no trade from the outside world, would take a great in money to get started. What about electricity, water, and other the infrastructure, and the desire for contact with others outside the city through the media, music, television, movies, etc. that we are so used to now? Perhaps you envision each circular city having residents who have the talent and necessary materials to provide a similar infrastructure and entertainment as we have now; I’m not sure. It seems a successful circular city would serve as an example for others to follow, and I stress the word successful. All the members would have to relocate themselves, sell all their worldly possessions to help fund the initial effort, and then the residents of the city would have to achieve a level of happiness that would cause them to want to stay. If people became unhappy, or disillusioned, then the city would fall apart. I’m not sure if this is what you envision as a way to get it started or not, but I’m just thinking about what your actual plan may be and it’s pros and cons.

Hi Guys, Sorry about the vanishing comments, I’ve restored them from a backup.

1. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on April 20, 2010 at 11:16 am.

   Aaron,

   You are the only person who has posted to this forum who seems to have any control of its contents. You restored the contents last August when somehow all the contents were deleted. The members of this forum who want to have a serious discussion about a money-less society are getting frustrated with the posts by Joram Arentved. His post are consistently off topic and have nothing to do with the issues we would like to discuss. He has offended some of the participants and is making our discussions difficult to maintain and keep on topic. Is there any way you can delete his comments, and prevent him from posting to this forum in the future? Let’s have a vote.

   Thanks,

   Bob

   Reply to Bob Wilkinson
   1. Aaron posted the following on April 23, 2010 at 9:49 am.

      Hi Bob,

      I’ve banned his IP address and removed all of his comments. I’m also going through and removing comments addressed directly to him.

      Reply to Aaron

Joram,

I’m not sure I understood a word of what you wrote. I wonder if you could rephrase it.

Cheers,

Bob
***

Joram,

I still don’t understand. Sorry.

Cheers,

Bob
***

Robin,

Thought you maybe interested in these couple of links, first is a video by Lydon LaRouche, he talked about a new world economic system not dissimilar to the ‘resource based society’book in PDF format, the second link provides the download, this book is full of practical ideas towards our imminent change.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef1Fsf7ovZA

http://resourcebasedliving.blogspot.com/2009/04/world-without-money-free-ebook.html

Best,
Danny aka Sixpm

1. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on September 18, 2009 at 4:29 pm.

   Here are a couple of links that may be of interest to all. One explains the Zeitgeist Movement, the activist arm of the Venus Project:

   http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/The%20Zeitgeist%20Movement.pdf

   There are similarities to the world-without-money-free-ebook, but I think the explainations are more detailed.

   And this is an almost 2 hour video, Zeitgeist Addendum, on you tube narrated by Peter Joseph, and contains an interview of Jacques Fresco, the founder of the Venus Project. Many of the you tube comments aren’t in support of the movie, which indicate that it will take a long time for a money-less society to become a reality. But you have to start somewhere.

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gKX9TWRyfs

   Peter Joseph has distanced himself from the 9/11 conspiracy, that was the subject of the Zeitgeist 1.

   Reply to Bob Wilkinson

Now that we have all admitted that we are not perfect, can we please get on with the job at hand, running the planet as though it matters?

In all humbleness,

Bob
***

1. Sixpm posted the following on September 19, 2009 at 11:02 pm.

   Bob,

   I am working my part in the building a better planet. Like I originally stated, what I’ve posted is a small contribution. One of the main reason why the planet is in the mess it is in now is because people’s denial of their spiritual nature. This basic fundamental knowledge has been deliberately taken out buy the controlling elites in our knowledge or education system, their intention is make sure we don’t know who we are and what we are capable off. Our ‘establishments’ are laying down laws, rules and regulations to make sure that we think and behave like a slave, the monetary system was a perfect system of slavery, hence we are talking about this moneyless society issue.

   I believe if we don’t have a basic understanding that we are essentially a soul/spirit living a physical existence, that our purpose is all about spiritual growth. All physical aspects are just tools to aid this growth. You may think for this moment what has this to do with the discussion of what this forum is all about? But unless we come to terms of our true identity, we will always see ‘others’ are something different to us, this separation is the initial cause of conflict in our world. We are all intrinsically linked, the good, the bad or the ugly are all part of us, the ignorance displayed by all humanity are all part of our total collective consciousness, something that we cannot denied.

   Dr. David R. Hawkins’s study on the field of human consciousness is a proof of this, biologist Rupert Sheldrake’s study of Morphic Resonance is also a confirmation that we all affects one another.

   What you and other with similar mindsets have started a mental revolution, this is already taken effect, we as a species do operate on the same frequency of thought. What you, me and others who thinks the same way will eventually affects all humanity, as once the point of critical mass is reached, then mass awareness is certain when this balance is tipped.

   I am not having an argument with you here, if that is what you feel, I would like apologize for I have no intention whatsoever, as I only mean well. All I’m doing here is just lay down my thoughts and hope is of use as that is how we all grow, by learning from each other.

   If we are not able to open our hearts to love, to forgive and to accept one another, and that we are all just one big family, how could we have ever lasting peace? We must let go of all our differences and to embrace, to encompass and to love all humanity unconditionally, then our future is certain.

   Love and peace.
   Danny

   Reply to Sixpm

my name is anthony poole i have just sent a proposal to my senator in alabama. in my letter of proposal i laid a lot of ideas out there for them to try . if you do an indepth study and you see what 90 % of all crimes commited are and why you will see that most all of these cases resort to some sort of money issue. so here is what i proposed i addressed the wont work chaos business thats not true . just because we have a moneyless system doesnt mean we wont have law. of ocurse most laws will change therefore releasing 50% of the jailed population that 50% im speaking of is over what … child support ? yup its true greedy or vegeful exs help create this problem i know i been there. if you remove money it fixes a lot of stuff but not all your still going to have a stupid drunk somewhere get messed up and kill someone im sure from time to time . here was another part i mentioned you can develop a rotating system that takes people from other trades or educational areas that would no longer exist retrain them into another field require min hours per week promote family life by cuttint time at work down from the current situation you really would not have to work harder if everyone pulls thier weight just as now wellwhat are you loosing by removing money? infact you would gain time away from work keeps you from burn out anyway and strees thats kinda the point to a moneyless system . yes even the homeless should be expected to participate for the new house they just recieved even if its cutting the grass for the county. or put them to work into recycling. promote people growing thier own foods to help the farmers out some as well. all you would have to would be show up at your job less for the same or better gains and you will feel better without the stress.come up with a system that uses your social security number as when you go to work (heres the equality thing addressed)new hybrid or electric car every 5 years recycle clothes, paper,metals , produce alternative fuels hey now theres a hot new job thats kinda interesting to know . but in this plan you would have a lot more freedom to go with this new system and that my friend is what we should be about. i mean the only people who would argue with this over stature are greedy control freaks that think they have that right well you dont get in step or step out of line . thesee people are generaly insecure people that dont feel comfortable with the idea we are all created equall in the eyes of god . they think their better because of thier education or, whatever it is that makes them think they deserve more stature than others my friend i have lots i could say to you guys but i wont . the way i see it if the doctor knows how to fix bodies and i know how to fix that doctors ac we all will win no matter if you pump gas for a living. as long as you work what does it really matter what you do or are educated to do.we are all headed the same way if you wanna ride get on if not peace walk then. in short this is what i came up with 1 abolish money effective instantly publicly announce this took place announce everything is now free just show up to work as normal until the bugs are worked out 2 stop all forclosures and evictions by law effective instantly .3 house homeless first 4set up comunications with employment offices for rotations to begin 5 require all able bodies to perform thier duties unto this nation 6 rework the laws so they actually work instead of a financial gain which creates corrupt officials normal laws apply 7 fines will go away taxes gone crime drastically lowered you just solved 90% percent of all problems by making things free to all and promoted brotherhood among men . and all these bs laws that are on the books for gain are gone only thing stopping that is people who want to feel powerful got news for you my friend the day you become powerful enough to take me on man to man is the day you will earn my respect until then you have no business in control of anything because you obviously have a mental problem. thats my opinion on that people just dont like to be controled like that in general its not how we are meant to be.we are meant to be equals in this world your skin made from the same stuff mine is . and unless you have the almighty say so your just another man or woman whichever the case maybe.im sure one could find argument that we as a society are not ready for a moneyless system but i ask you is it better to starve in a poor economy or thrive in a moneyless system whats happening right now thats a very real fact of life to face. there is no room for jealousy and envy in this system no need for it as why would anyone want to see that out of another human anyways unless your messed up in the head? we were not put here to act this way .im sure if we all put our heads together we could come up with a rational solution to any snag this could throw i mean if you cant work 30 hours a week doing something then you are disabled anyway outside of that you would be lazy and should not expect someone to pull your weight there would be something for everyone to do and it would not require much effort i mean come on who could not do 30 hours at thier current job in exchange for utilities , car , home , clothes , net, festivals, vacation time, more time with family, lower crime rate, walking down the roughest possible neighborhood without fear of getting shot and robbed , better kids in the long run because mom and dad around more ,this rat race lifestyle we live now is nothing but and has always been trouble from the start.there will still be teachers but oh heres how we handle the education of that doctor over the education over highschool drop out… you train them you share your knowledge you help people become more than they are with it so they might one day step in and help in the very same field i mean after all everything is free so should education some of these folks didnt have a chance they were born into finacial problems and couldnt go to school or got preg early should they be condemed for that? i dont think so i think they should have the same chance to progress no matter if its later on in life but as we know when you are already paycheck to paycheck there is not much chance of that with money around. this young lady made a mistake ok she should not be thrown to the wolves like that. but you get my point thanks for the ear and i would like to see an org started to educate people in this area to ill be ready to sign up in a flash. ps sorry for all typos guess you know what job i wouldnt be good at lol

Hi all,

I really like the idea of contacting Michael Moore, but personally would like to see the movie first, so as to prepare a letter (with pack of materials of course) which succinctly explains the idea of an RBE as a logical progression from capitalism. However, I live in Germany and don’t know when the film is coming out. I’m prepared to wait, but if anyone is willing to put together a letter who has seen the film, I’d be willing to help make the letter as effective as possible. It would also be a nice idea to have it come from (be signed by) hundreds or even thousands of people.

Cheers
Toby

1. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on October 8, 2009 at 4:38 pm.

   Toby,

   I listened to Peter Joseph’s recent web address at
   http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?Itemid=1904
   and I did hear him mention Michael Moore, and to contact as many people in positions of influence as possible. I have already sent Michael links to the Zeitgeist Movement. I don’t know if he’s looked at anything I’ve sent though because he hasn’t responded to me. It seems to me that if Michael thinks that capitalism is the evil he proposes in his film, he would put his money where his mouth is and get involved. Peter answers many emails sent to him concerning how to get a Resource Based Economy started, when, where, how, who, etc. on the October 7th, 2009 address. He goes into great detail.

   Cheers and Peace,

   Bob W.

   Reply to Bob Wilkinson

I love the idea of a moneyless society. I particularly like the idea of a ‘Time-Bank’ system, where I can ‘deposit’ 8 hours work on somebody’s garden and ‘withdraw’ 8 hours of somebody’s work decorating.
People think that one person’s ‘hour’ is worth more than another person’s ‘hour’, and this is where we, as a society, need to mature our thinking. One man’s hour is worth another man’s hour – period. He may argue that he’s invested the time in studying, or skill-learning; in my mind that entitles him to deposit his hours doing something he loves (if you don’t love it why did you choose that profession?).
Remember, nobody is better than anyone else – or ‘not-as-good’ as anyone else; all that is stuff we learned from our parents, friends, teachers.
If a person slow hours, that’s fine, why should we all live life at the same pace? It just makes your life spin by faster.
I like Joram Arentved’s vision of life, and would like to hear more.

You guys need to stop fighting and chill out. That’s another product of the monetary system by the way. Divide the people and rule. Let’s all get our minds together and make this world a living and prosperous reality…
K

1. Robert Howes posted the following on April 1, 2010 at 12:44 pm.

   Hi Kyriakos,

   My email address is robertcircle1@yahoo.co.uk
   ***
   Please ask me any questions. Most questions are already on the web, but ask anyway.
   ***
   I am making progress slowly, but that is okay. We’ll speed things up later.

   Cheers,

   Bob
   ***

   Reply to Robert Howes

Hi you guys,

I have posted the link to this site on another site that is dedicated to moneylessness(www.justfortheloveofit.org)and there might be visitors from that site, so please get real.
***
I didn’t start this blog but I agree with evolving to a moneyless world as quickly as possible. There are those who choose to live without money and those who have no jobs and no other legal way to get money, so I see this as our first task, to create jobs that create wealth in the many forms that we all enjoy (food, clothes, housing, medical treatments, education, transportation and so on).
***
At the same time as creating this new wealth we must also make sure it is distributed more equally, and that more distribution is of wealth directly, not through money. We must reserve money for necessity, like buying land.

Cheers,

Bob
***

All questions answered. Ask away…

This discussion is very interesting. I am one of the earliest to support this “moneyless” discussion. This can really be possible to eliminate money-system. I hope we can achieve this dream soon.

Whoever authored this discussion, I am wishing you the best.

Hi Ali,

Nice to see you back.

K

Hi guys,

Sorry to not get back to you for a while, I’m getting very busy just now. Today plumbing, and I’m not a plumber. Much other practical work to catch up with. I could pay others to do the work but my income isn’t great. Keep nagging me and I will tell you all the plan, by and by. Mind you, I could just tell you how to create your own plan. It is simple. You tell yourself that you are going to change the world, then you tell everyone you meet. You have to be convinced. They don’t have to be. You can try to convince them but they will ask how, and when you tell them your plan they will shoot it down. Listen carefully to what they say and think up ways around the problems they present you with. Then tell everyone your new, improved plan. They will shoot that one down too. Same process, listen, act, tell, get shot down, listen, act, tell, and so on for year after year if need be until your plan is almost perfect. That’s how I did it.

Cheers,

Bob
***

1. Sixpm posted the following on April 9, 2010 at 11:16 pm.

   I love your spirit Bob, thank you for sharing.

   Best,
   Danny

   Reply to Sixpm
   1. Robert Howes posted the following on April 10, 2010 at 3:48 am.

      Thanks Danny,

      If you or anyone want to know my conclusions then you’ll find some of them at:

      http://www.justfortheloveofit.org/blog

      Look in the replies to the last few of Mark’s blogs. Mark got upset with me when he didn’t understand my ideas. He is a young man with much yet to learn, but he’s getting there.

      I have some plumbing to get on with now. Connecting a log burning boiler to the house plumbing so that next Winter will be a lot warmer than the last seven.

      Cheers,

      Bob
      ***

      Reply to Robert Howes
      1. Sixpm posted the following on April 10, 2010 at 4:01 am.

         Thanks Bob, I know I’m ready for the moneyless society and waiting. My participation is by being conscious and this positivity will project and manifest itself in time as we are much more powerful than we all believed in. Thanks for the link and I’ll spend time to enjoy reading it. Good luck with your plumbing.

         Best,
         Danny

         Reply to Sixpm
      2. Robert Howes posted the following on April 10, 2010 at 6:19 am.

         Hi Danny,

         I just stacked the firewood that I brought here months ago. It’ll dry out more now against a bank facing the sun.
         ***
         I’ve done the inside plumbing. I have to work outside next where the (40kw) boiler and two 1,000 litre accumulator tank are. They wouldn’t fit in the house. I’ll roof them over soon. I’ll get them working first.
         ***
         I just want to add that creating a moneyless society will probably need to be done in stages, not all at once. Moneyless communities that provide their members with their needs whilst trading using barter and money with the outside world is a good way to start.
         ***
         Networks of such communities can give and take freely as well as sharing members. We have a long way to go. Keep on keeping on.

         Cheers,

         Bob
         ***

         Reply to Robert Howes

Plan Two

Plan Two is complementary to plan one. Whereas plan one is for anyone, plan two is aimed at involving the better off members of society.
***
Plan two is based around the idea of getting the money that has flowed to the rich and stuck there to flow back to everyone else, without it impoverishing the well off. Anything sold to the rich that holds its value does not make the buyer less rich. In this case though, not only does it not make the rich any less rich, it improves their lives in many ways.
***
I call this concept the circle city. The optimum design is a circle but it could be any other shape, so long as it encircles the area of land reserved for growing the bulk of the fruit and veg eaten by the citizens.
***
The optimum size would be a two thousand acre circle (or other shape) of flat land with the building around the edge, all set in a total of thirty thousand acres of land, mostly forest.
***
So there we have the essence, a single building with more than one function. A pleasant place to live, that grows its own food, keeps its citizens healthy and comfortable, provides them all with meaningful activities and so on. The building, by surrounding the crop land, keeps out the creatures of the forest that would eat the crops meant for humans, and also creates and maintains the forest for the creatures (deer, rabbits, even slugs), all but the flying creatures, that can be dealt with in other ways.
***
By making a habitat so expensive that only the rich can live there we also create an environment that attracts the rich, who because of lack of need for money are far less likely to rob and steal from one another. This might sound prejudiced, but it is not. I am from a poor background but an honest one. There are many less than honest poorer people who are not satisfied with what they can earn who instead go out robbing other poor folks, or they rob the rich. Or they sell drugs or go in for any of a thousand scams. It is no wonder the rich want to keep to themselves. One day there may be no money and no need of it, but for the foreseeable future there will be a small number of rich and a larger number of poor, and the circle city will help the rich and poor alike, as will the business collectives as described in plan one.
***
The details of the circle cities will be determined by the members, but I would try to set a high standard right from the start. I have a detailed set of designs in mind. Quite simple and robust and designed to please the majority every moment of their lives.

Also, the workforce in these communities will be highly flexible, many learning something of the running of all the one hundred businesses and actively participating in some or all of them. Each community will also teach the subjects that are not adequately covered in school. Not just the trades such as plumbing, but languages and geography and customs so that Irish representatives can hold their own all over the world, and sell its products there.
***
The list of businesses below is far short of all the potential businesses. Each group would develop a business based on its own needs. As the group grew it would become obvious that it either had to call on the services of others or develop a particular business. Each new business in that group would make money for the group at the same time as cutting the costs of that group, making it more competitive. Different groups would have a different mix of trades and businesses. Free or very cheap to the members and very reasonably priced to other groups and individuals. I have only shown a representative 100 businesses out of thousands of possibilities. Each group will democratically decide which businesses it goes in for.

K, if you can block this Joram, please do. Please delete also all his comments so that people may understand the discussions here without distractions from his senseless comments.
This issue of a moneyless economy is very important for the existence of mankind – a big leap for the maturity of mankind. I have learned many things – pros and cons of moneyless system.
Please don’t let Joram spoil this serious matter.

Hi everyone,

OK, let us get back to talking about a moneyless future society. Is it desirable, is it attainable, and if so how can it be brought about, and in what time scale?
***
I think that it is desirable in the long term but that we need to use money over the next few decades in order to set up a new system that thereafter will not need money.
***
That para answers the questions very superficially. It is only my opinion that a moneyless world is desirable. If pressed I would say that the present money world is doing such a bad job of distributing goods and services that moneylessness would seem to be a better option. No-one knows if the whole world can go moneyless and stay advanced. It might mean going back to a primitive way of life and that might not be sustainable.
***
Before we can go back to that kind of moneyless system in which we forget about metals and electronics and plastics and cars and so on we’d need to run down the numbers of humans to stone age levels. But would that solve anything? Would it not just all start up again?
***
I think a sensible approach is needed here. A moneyless future should be our goal, but in the meantime we need to use all the money we can get to buy all the land we can afford and we need to run all the businesses we can so that as a movement of groups we become predominant all over the world. When we own most of the land and grow most of the food and the future fuel (trees) and make most of the machinery and interact with the rest of the world via money but with ourselves using no money then we’ll have gone as far as we really need to. If there are still regions of the world that use money but there is no longer any poverty then our work will have been done.
***
Does everyone agree? By the way, who did start this threed? Are you still here?

Cheers,

Bob
***

PS. Any who come and stay at our small community can be in at the start of this transition. It is starting, here, now.

All right, all the Joram nonsense has been removed and most of the replies to his nonsense were removed as well.

1. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on April 23, 2010 at 9:58 am.

   Aaron,

   Thank you very much. We all appreciate it!

   Bob

   Reply to Bob Wilkinson

Since we are up against the constant barrage of economic programming from the likes of: The Wall Street Journal, Business Week, Money, Bloomberg Report, and the daily economic reports on the radio and television, it seems that if there were a publication, electronic or otherwise, that could be made available, it would help to win the hearts and minds necessary to make the money-less conversion. I am convinced I won’t see much, if any, change in my lifetime. I talk about the benefits of a money-less society with my daughter, which maybe is the best we can do at this point. I sure didn’t get that type of information from my parents. I think the Venus Project and The Free Economy (http://www.justfortheloveofit.org/) are the greatest forces in spreading the concept of a cashless economy, but their reach is limited. If we preach to the converted we cannot gain the necessary momentum. No matter how much I love to talk and think about how much better life would be without the unnecessary money transactions that we have to suffer through whenever we do anything, many of my friends have grown tired of me bringing up the subject, so I don’t anymore; they think that it is a pie-in-the-sky concept, or is communism, against human nature etc. and utterly dismiss even considering thinking about it. Those of use who would gladly give up their bank accounts and ownership documents in exchange for a money-less economy have vastly different ideas on the way from here to there. Somehow, and I don’t know how, we need to become more visible. I would love to see a course offered at the college level, or even better in high school, where the concepts of a resource, or money-less society, were presented in a sensible understandable way. I understand that getting this accomplished would be extremely difficult. Not enough of us live in the same geographic location where we could pool our resources. Even if you take all the members of the Venus Project, The Free Economy, and others, there would be less than 1,000,000, (an overestimate) which is only 0.000147% of the 6.8 billion of us on this planet, hardly a percentage that can make any difference. Michael Moore’s movie, Capitalism a Love Story, is the closest thing to a mainstream production that even showed how horrible the banking industry is, but he offers no solutions. I emailed him at his private email address, bailout@michaelmoore.com, and asked him if he had heard of the Venus Project and let him know that I thought it would be great if he put his money where his mouth is, but I never heard back. Anyway, that’s all for now.

Hi Bob and Danny,

We need a plan, and I have a plan, and I am putting it into practice, all by myself until others join me. And since they are reluctant to get involved without being paid in money to do so then that is part of the plan too.
***
It seems contradictory to pay people to go moneyless and create a moneyless economy, but it is not. Within a money economy in which most people think the way Bob’s friends do there is no choice. You have to pay participants enough for them to live. Not necessarily in money alone. Part cash, part goods and services.
***
Imagine for a moment that we had a company up and running that could supply each worker all that they needed. We wouldn’t have to pay them in money at all. If the company could supply half the workers’ needs then only half wages need be paid. Cash or kind in inverse ratio.
***
We don’t yet have more than my own company and my own needs. So I am working towards a doubling of that by starting a second company with one other worker. Our needs will be twice my needs. Accommodation, food and so on. Can I find one other person who I can pay what I can afford? And will that person work hard enough and/or smart enough to create as much as his or her wages? I don’t see why not.
***
One other person can live in the house we already own and work on the land we already own. (Malcolm owns the house, I own the land next to it and other plots too). If we buy and sell trees and shrubs and other things on the local markets or even door to door we should make enough money to continue. After 12 months we can double up again. Two new businesses, two new workers. We’ll need to decide on a variation of the tree and shrub business plus my house renting out business, or two completely different businesses, it hardly matters which so long as the money is coming in. In the early days of few businesses almost everything will cost money. We need to accept this. To go off at a tangent (freeconomy or Venus Project) would do us no good at all.
***
As the numbers of businesses increases, including our own school/university of societal change where we teach what we have learned, we’ll be able to replace a part of our wages with goods and services. For instance, if one of our businesses fixes old cars and sells them, there will always be cars for our members/workers, and their families to use, either for free or for very little. If we make our own biodiesel then we’ll have cheap or free fuel. If we modify cars and vans to burn wood instead of oil products we’ll have these available to us, and our woodworking businesses will have offcuts of wood for us to use. If we run our own bus and taxi services even our non driving members, including their children can have free rides.
***
Our food growing companies will be able to supply all members and their families with fruits and vegetables, and our food processing companies will be able to add canned, bottled, frozen and dried foodstuffs to the list so that shopping in regular stores can be reduced still further. Money is also needed for business activities, for instance the necessary tools and machines for successfully growing crops. Our own engineering companies can make such equipment and we get the use of it free of charge or very cheap. Same with clothes. If we make clothes and also repair old clothes that we collect, everyone can have free or cheap clothes.
***
The same applies to each business, the more diverse our businesses are the more we can cut the costs of living for all members at the same time as providing reasonably priced goods and services to the public, using local labour and thereby reducing imports from other parts of the world. Within a few years others would start realising that this model works and we can start doubling groups as well as doubling the businesses in a group. Each group would use its resources mostly to grow itself, then as it became larger and more successful it could afford to help new groups to start. All this sounds too much like capitalism to socialists and communists, but they will have to change their thinking if they want to be involved just the same as capitalists will have to change their thinking if they don’t want to lose out to these new, sleeker, smarter businesses that can compete with even the Chinese.
***
There is no real limit to the growth of this new business model, and it can be done at different financial levels with poorer and richer communities of businesses trading with each other to mutual advantage. Even cashless groups will be able to join in and get their needs met without the need for cash at all. The members of such groups will not need to own anything to have the use of everything.
***
Money causes mayhem, but it can be a force for good too if it is used in these ways. Gradually money can be reduced and reduced until it no longer threatens out very existence, and then it can be reduced still further until there is no need for it at all. All this can haven in our lifetime, or at least the beginnings of it can. Show this to your children, see if they understand it and agree with it.

It is damp here today after many days of sunshine, but it is Bright enough.

Cheers,

Bob
***

I think there have been a lot of ideas/suggestions/hypotheses laid down above about the pros and cons of a moneyless society. May I suggest that someone should summarize all the important points mentioned. At least we can see more clearly the picture. We can then speculate if this system can be feasible or not.
We can even do some plans of action thereafter.

Just finished watching this:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4020719354420953428&ei=oc18Sf-RHp64qAP-3pmzBA&q=The+Gig+Is+Up:+Money,+the+Federal+Reserve+and+You#

This guy really exposes money for what it is. Although he doesn’t say to eliminate money, I can find no other conclusion. It’s over an hour long, and reinforces much of what I have been reading. I believe that the more we know about the money system and how it really works, then we will be more convinced to eliminate it. More of us need to know what is presented in this video. Maybe I can get some of my friends to watch it. Let me know what you think.

Bob W

1. Danny Chau posted the following on May 2, 2010 at 1:01 am.

   This is a great video Bob, and I’ve already send it out to all my friends and family. Towards the end of the lecture, the speaker mentioned plenty enough about the change of our consciousness and it is the basic fundamental core of what is needed to make the shift or the change that this world requires. He mentioned about ‘greed’, so as long we still gripped by the basic instinct, then nothing could change.

   The irony is that ‘we’ as a collective having to endure ‘great’ pressure from the ‘elites’ in order to ‘rebound’ from our sleep and rise to resist this ‘pressure’ from within. This has always been part of our make up and change over our ‘human’ history.

   The journey of our physical life is hidden with a massive message, and this was never about the physical aspect of our reality, but a spiritual one. Until we come to accept that we are more than just flesh and blood, we will struggle to live beyond the game this self imposed limitation.

   Have you ever wondered the very thought of ‘I am’ is in fact that the you the ‘I’ is the divinity itself? As we all are, all part of this divinity – only this would allow the divinity seeing this illusory world from infinite perspectives to experience outside of the ‘I AM’ ness, which is quite ‘lonely’.

   The truth is between all the illusion, this includes our ‘thoughts’, consciousness and all the mayhem within our illusory physical reality.

   I think the change will not happen until the majority of people (thoughts and consciousness) is tired and had enough of this unfair, unjust and stupid system/life they’re ‘playing’.

   Danny

   Reply to Danny Chau
   1. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on May 2, 2010 at 1:26 am.

      Danny,

      I agree that the change will now happen until the majority of people get sick and tired of being taken advantage of by the banking elite who have had their way for the past few hundred years. I hope the the gig is up, as stated in the video. I don’t understand the divinity or the ‘I AM’ ness concept you present, all I can say is that the more that we all know about money, the Federal Reserve, the Rothchilds, and the rest of the money manipulators, the better will be able to reject the monetary system. I believe that if everyone knew the facts that we know, the transition would take place more quickly. We are up against a barrage of daily propaganda, brainwashing, whatever you want to call it, when all you hear about on the radio and TV is money this and money that. Like I mentioned, we need more exposure. The Zeitgeist Movement, The Venus Project, Free Economy are all great organizations, but still we are such a small percentage of the population, that we are insignificant at present. But if exponential doubling will occur, then in 32 months, or cycles, there will be at least 4,294,967,296 of us, enough to make a change. It is best to be hopeful and not give up. People I know are resistant to the idea for whatever reason. People think they will lose their bank accounts and property in such a system. I don’t have all the answers, but I sure have a lot of questions.

      Bob

      Reply to Bob Wilkinson

Bob and Danny,

If you really want answers you need to ask the right questions.
***
I want ten questions from each of you. Don’t try to answer them at this stage. Let us simply try to arrive at agreed upon questions. Once we have done that and we have some major questions and some minor ones too, then we can see what answers we agree upon.
***
Other questions will arise in the process and we can then try to answer those. If we do not do this then we are not taking it seriously and we are wasting time.

Cheers,

Bob
***

Bob,
***

First thing about your comment about taking “it” seriously: I wouldn’t be doing all the research, learning as much as I can about the history of money and how it has its roots in humanity if I weren’t taking “it” seriously. I realize you have a plan and ideas that, in all likelihood, would move us towards a moneyless society, and that you are trying to find people to join you. You are up against the same obstacle that all of us are, simply, how to convince people that removing money from the equation would be in the best interests for all. I think every member of this forum shares that goal. It may be true that the venting we do on this forum can be seen as “wasting time,” but it makes me feel good that there are others out there scattered about the world who share the vision, and for me, that is a good thing.

I think that more awareness is necessary before anyone will decide to participate in any sort of plan. I think there is more awareness now than there was just a couple of years ago, as evidenced by videos like the one I posted a couple of days ago, the growing Zeitgeist movement and others, and we are getting closer to bringing the necessary awareness to others, which is what is needed before any serious project can be initiated. Like Peter Joseph has said, “We are in our infancy.”

As to the 10 questions assignment, I think there is really only one question, and you stated it in your last post: how to convince the overwhelming majority that having a moneyless society is in their best interests? Money seems so normal to most people that they can’t envision a world without it. The money-masters have done a good job of keeping us snowballed for centuries, and we have our work cut out for us.

Enjoying a nice day in sunny California,

Bob

For sure it is not enough to complete the process of transition, but you have to start somewhere. I believe that if everyone knew what we know about the monetary system, and how it is used by a relative few of us as a power vehicle to control the world’s population, it would be a slam dunk to get people involved. Bob H would have all the people he could dream of who would want to join with him, if simply, they knew how we have been all manipulated: sheeple, as Danny put it. I enjoy the process of telling it like it is and think that is what must be done at this point. It will take time, and though I know I won’t live long enough to see a moneyless world, I will play my little role in the process. That’s what we all must do.

Bob

1. Danny Chau posted the following on May 2, 2010 at 8:55 pm.

   I believe we have already started the process for a moneyless society, because ‘we’ (however small a collective) have this same awareness that money no longer serve the rule for the betterment of mankind. This is important because I have been thinking the idea of money is so distorted (to me at least) for a very long time. That I refuse to take part of this mass corruption, for instance, I was asked by my bank manager 12 years ago, that he’ll lend me 100% mortgage to buy two houses/flats for my two younger sons, so when they are old enough, they will each have a house of their own. This idea would sound fine for most in forward planning, as the cost of housing is continuously on the rise. The fact is I never have believed and I have always have been disgusted why on earth that our governments allow people to speculate on our basic right to live? To have a roof over our heads? That we should only make money out of work or in business and not on basic necessities of life. I told my bank manager (Natwest London) exactly my believe, and I’m still happy with my decision now.

   I also know I am not the only one who believe in this, otherwise I wouldn’t be here and if none of you guys had the same set of values. I too come to this site because I search and google it on line. I truly believe it is possible for us to see changes within our lifetime, as I read from lots of sources, I try to be as flexible (mind and consciousness) as possible, that I do research on both physical and non-physical (spiritual) to balance my view and understanding why and what is going on around us.

   Do you know that the earth was oscillating around 8 hertz and is now around 13-14 hertz and still on the increase?

   http://gnosticnotes.blogspot.com/2007/11/earth-frequency-is-increasing.html

   This meant the consciousness is also on the rise, we are all arrived at a very interesting time of our history, and we are here both to witness and to participate this paradigm shift from dark to light.

   So our discussion here is not time wasting, but to flush out our questions, ideas and I’m sure that how everything starts. This world is a creation of ours is it not, everything is literally created first as an idea in our heads first, than we turn it into matter. This is also the proof that we are part co-creators, as our present society IS the very creation from nothing. We have started the process from the dark ages, but we are now walking towards the light, we are leading the way out of the darkness.

   Let’s continue………

   Danny

   Reply to Danny Chau
2. stuart posted the following on May 9, 2010 at 12:21 am.

   I think that there will be millions of people who will have great ideas to transitions a moneyless. Some of them will be as good if not MUCH better than the ideas that are already out there.. All that need be done is to tell them that what is happening in our society now isnt working.. we cant assume that just because they dont know what the problem is, that they are also unintelligent.. When more people know there will be batter ideas..

   Peace,
   Stuart

   Reply to stuart

Hi guys,

I saw Michael Moore’s Capitalism: A Love Story on Saturday night. It’s amazing, you should all watch it.

Bob, I like your plan. Anyway, I will send you an email later today with some of my thoughts.

Thanks,

Kyriakos

Bob,

If you are convinced that you are not going to see a moneyless world then you are accepting the need for a long transition. Do you accept that it should be a planned transition that cannot be moneyless without slowing its own progress?
***
If so, what is wrong with my plan? If you say nothing is wrong with it then we should start to promote it specifically, should we not? If you think my plan is flawed then should we try to improve on it or look at a different plan?
***
Do you also accept that there are many questions, not just the one big one of how do we convince everyone?
***
Please try to stick to questions. Once we have enough of the right questions the answer(s) should be fairly obvious, shouldn’t it/they?
***
There are a whole bunch of questions tied up with peak oil and overpopulation and global climate change and so on. If you watch all 8 of the parts of the most important video etc at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY&feature=player_embedded

you might then think we are doomed. But there are the questions he doesn’t ask that we can ask. See if you can figure them out.

Cheers,

Bob
***

Hi everyone, the reson why the International bankers control the Vatican and all other religions is to counter Islam. They make those religions look just like Islam. But Islam is different. Sorry to tell you all this. I know you are not Muslims.
The reason why you look Islam as not dynamic is because you think it is the same with all other religions. If you are really interested in a moneyless economy, I suggest you study the system of Islam because it is the only system that can abolish money economy.
Sixpm, you have excellent idea on spirituality. But everything is more or less from your own opinion/understanding/obsevation. Islam’s view on spirituality and this material world is taken from God (Allah) Himself – through His Prophet Muhammad. He knows everything about us because we are His creations. You said that we are gods? No, Sir.
Where is Buddhism before Buddha? Christianity before Christ? Good question. There were no Buddhism and Christianity before Buddha and Christ, respectively. But where is Islam before Muhammad? Yes, there is Islam before Muhammad. Islam is the religion of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and all other prophets of God (Allah).
Even in the Bible, you can find all the present practices of Islam as practiced by the Biblical Prophets. But you can never see the practices of those Prophets in the Christianity today or any other religion, except only in Islam. Because all the Prophets did the same thing – Islam. Islam means submission to whatever Allah (God) wills (Prostrations, fasting, and many others). Allah is the name of God. Jesus even call him “Eli, Eli (lama sabachtani)” – Eli, a corrupted name of Allah.
Please do study about Islam so that you may have a correct understanding of humanity and its nature. Then we can get rid of money…I hope you can understand my point. I am not proselytizing my religion here like the followers of other religions. I am here to espouse how we can get rid of money, which no other religion can do, except the principles and philosophies of Islam.
Please do not equate Islam with any other religion.
Study Islam. Islam is for intellectuals. I believe you are not like any other narrow-minded people out there.
This is a basic thing. But to get to the top of the matter, we need to go back to the basics. Islam have been here since your birth, but you still do not know it. All you know is terrorism, Arabs, which the International bankers fed to you so that they can enslave you through their money.

1. Danny Chau posted the following on May 8, 2010 at 10:50 pm.

   Hi Ali,

   I would be very interested to hear what are your views on this:

   http://www.scribd.com/doc/12737933/Cosmic-Drama-by-Alan-Watts

   Best,

   Danny

   Reply to Danny Chau
   1. Ali Chin posted the following on May 9, 2010 at 1:29 am.

      Hello Danny, I have not read all your suggested article (due to eye problems). But I understood it talked about being Godhood of a man. I am sorry, but my belief, as a Muslim, of a God is He is capable of doing anything, which man cannot. You may not believe that God created anything you can see, and cannot be seen. It is really hard to imagine and believe the nature of God and the nature of our Existence through our human comprehension or intelligence. That is why God sent Prophets through time so that man can be taught as to who he is and what is the purpose of his creation – the final prophet being the Prophet Muhammad (Prophet Muhammad was foretold in the Bible by some Prophets, most notably by Moses and Jesus).
      If we rely only to our intelligence, we cannot arrive to a consensus. We need God to explain things for us.
      Mr Robert Howes asked how Islam can take us all to moneylessness. First is unity. We need unity or consensus to achieve moneless society. And only Islam can unite us all. Just imagine the present more than one billion Muslims are one and united in their ideology – with some minor differences between Shia and Sunni schools of thought (which is being fanned by the international bankers to create wars for more profits, otherwise this is easy to resolve). No religion or any ideology can match this. Christianity is divided and the solution to their division is impossible (Please don’t try to argue about this because it is absurd and waste of time to insist that Christianity can be reunited, much more to do something about the problems of mankind).
      Second, Islam has the perfect laws (the Shariah law). This may not be known to anyone here, but Shariah law is perfect to manage the affairs of mankind. And only God can create a perfect/flawless law (Please try to read or study the Islamic laws if you are concern or interested). This is why I believe that God exists. So we have to abide by His laws (this is the meaning of Islam – to submit to the will of God – Allah).

      Reply to Ali Chin

Guys,

I can guarantee you that no religion will take us anywhere. Sorry Ali, that is my opinion.
Religion only breeds fanatism, be it Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hindu you name it.
It has only created wars so far.

There is no God, it’s all in our heads. To make us feel protected. Come on now! What kind of bullshit, excuse my language, is that?

Let’s solve our problems between us first, as humans, and we see how it goes. Fairy tales about Jesus and Mohammed and prophets are very nice but you need only look at the state of the world today and it really shows you that there is nothing out there to help you. Do you really believe in this stories in the 21st century? That’s for our fathers and mothers that were conditioned to live out of fear.

Anyway, let’s get real and do something…

K

Yes Bob, I think that’s a great idea.
My question is the following:
If you have a job that you don’t really like, do not really like your boss and they haven’t paid you for 2 months, what do you do? Is that the result of the capitalist system again?

Thanks
K

1. Robert Howes posted the following on May 4, 2010 at 12:35 pm.

   Hi K,

   Your situation obviously leads you to question the present system. This is good. Keep questioning.

   Cheers,

   Bob
   ***

   Reply to Robert Howes

Well, Roxanne scanned through the information on this blog and she definetely wants to meet with you. She actually suggested meeting with you in the UK when she arrives with Jacque there soon.

Can I forward your details to them with your permission?

K

1. Robert Howes posted the following on May 4, 2010 at 6:03 pm.

   Hi K,

   Yes, certainly you can.
   ***
   I was just chatting with Bob Wilkinson.

   Cheers,

   Bob
   ***

   Reply to Robert Howes
2. Robert Howes posted the following on May 7, 2010 at 11:08 am.

   I am assuming Kyriakos cannot get to a computer with all that is happening in Greece. I hope everything gets sorted out soon.

   Cheers,

   Bob
   ***

   Reply to Robert Howes

Hi Kyriakos,

It got a bit rough in Greece yesterday. Hope you are okay. All over money too. But aren’t most problems? I understand why people want to give up on money. But do they understand that a long transition is necessary?

Cheers,

Bob
***

robertcircle1@yahoo.co.uk

The answers to Danny’s questions will reveal themselves once the majority of people become aware of how the bankers have taken complete control over the issuance of money, and control the politicians they are able to support/bribe, or whatever term you want to use. This centuries old scam has become so embedded into our lives that we see it as a normal part of life. We are unwitting slaves to a few, unconsciously and mindlessly letting the power of money with the consent of corporations and government control almost every aspect of our lives. As a group we are quite unenlightened, and the powers-that-be want to keep it that way. The first thing that must be accomplished is to end the Federal Reserve, and since we are to going to have to use money during the transition, then let governments issue its own medium of exchange until it is finally realized as an obsolete, unnecessary activity, and then we’ll be done with it. Once money is gone, then at some point borders will dissolve because they are basically used for economic reasons. We will no longer have to teach about economics, which will allow for more technical and and psychological research, which will enrich everyone’s lives. Since most crimes are monetary in origin, or involve the theft of property, law enforcement will be less a priority, as there would be no need to steal. I would hope that the psychological benefits of a moneyless society would make people less inclined to violence and excessive drug use, and crime at some point would fade away and not be relevant.

Bob W

Hi guys,

I think it is a mistake to think things are going to get better just as a result of getting worse. I suggest things will get better when we make them get better.

Cheers,

Bob
***

Hi Ali,

Quote:

“I agree with Mr Bob Wilkinson;s approach. More feasible.”

Can you elaborate on that statement?

Cheers,

Bob
***

Dear Ali,

I cannot see any process there. I thought maybe you had seen something that I had not. I chat regularly with Bob Wilkinson online and we discuss ideas (and other things). There are too many unanswered questions in what he wrote. I will discuss it further with him.

Cheers,

Bob
***

I know Danny,

When I talk about Greece I am not talking about the geography, I talk about the spirit that happened to develop in that area. Called Freedom. If you haven’t lived in this envuronment you will never understand. Greeks will probably implement the first moneyless society and so on…

They will never accept the plan set by Capitalist leaders anyway. You will see it happening…

K

Hi K,

I have so many thoughts, on many subjects. I like to think I am logical and rational. It’s a good place to start from. Also compassionate and caring in my own way.
***
Capitalism is not rational or caring, and it leads people astray. It has its own cold logic.

Cheers,

Bob
***

Hi K,

Who are you asking?: “Are you confused my friend?
K”

Cheers,

Bob
***

If I wasn’t, I am now:-]

Are you still puzzled?
K

Hi K,

No, I’m not confused, I’m used to me, I’ve been me for a long time, I can put up with me quite easily.
***
The world might seem confusing to others, I can only speak for myself. I think about others though, and the shit deal they got.
***
I was born poor, but I’ve never really gone without, the way some do. We live in dark times, but interesting times too. Where there is life, there is hope.
***
I have much to occupy me over the coming days, but I will keep an eye on Anthology. When there is a set of relevent questions with which to judge ideas we can then look at ideas.

Cheers,

Bob
***

Ali and Danny, this is not a forum for religious discussion, conversion etc. I know you guys mean well, and even though you feel that if everyone held your religious views we would have world peace, history has shown otherwise. Wars are religious and/or economic in nature, putting both disciplines in the same category. We don’t need that. I’ll give god the benefit of the doubt. I can’t say that one doesn’t exist, but if a god did exist, I don’t think he/she/it would have let some of the atrocities happen on this planet that have. I think it’s great that your religious beliefs have brought you some peace of mind, but I think that it’s really another subject. There is most likely another blog somewhere that would welcome religious discussion where you might find more likeminded people.

Kyriakos, how was your recent meeting with Roxanne and Jacque? I’m interested in what you think of the Venus Project and their ideas. I have listened to many of Peter Joseph’s internet radio broadcasts. You can listen to them here: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/Peter-Joseph

Bob H, I know about your plan, building businesses, and circle cities, and thing they would work great if you could get some more help, and that you have what you consider a process. I may not have a step by step way of getting from here to there, but I believe that if we knew more about the economic system and how we got to the place we are now, it would be inevitable that people would opt for a different way of handling our resources distribution methods, and you would be able to find people much easier. I would consider it, but I live in California and have parental responsibilities.

I have mentioned several books in this blog that I would consider required reading, like Web of Debt by Ellen Brown, http://www.webofdebt.com/, and The Secrets of the Federal Reserve and the Federal Reserve Conspiracy by Eustace Mullins. You can download the Secrets of the Federal Reserve here. http://www.apfn.org/apfn/reserve.htm
People would be completely outraged if they only knew. I was having dinner with relatives and friends last night and found an interested ear, but then I was asked to change the subject because they are tired of hearing me talk about it. Most people just don’t want to know. It’s too painful to know the truth is the only thing I can surmise.

Hope all is well with everyone,
Have a nice Sunday,
Bob W

Robert Howes, can you please give me JUST ONE GOOD REASON to support your disagreement that only Islam can unite all peoples of the world. It is not fair to just disagree without any logical or scientific reason.

Bob Wilkinson, you may be tired of me about Islam – just as your relatives and friends are tired of your Fed Reserve truth. It is really hard to digest the truth if you don’t understand it, or no interest in it.

“I was having dinner with relatives and friends last night and found an interested ear, but then I was asked to change the subject because they are tired of hearing me talk about it. Most people just don’t want to know. It’s too painful to know the truth is the only thing I can surmise.” This is exactly the same with Islam’s truth – the only difference is the scope or dimension. Islam is about all aspects of our lives, and the Fed thing is just IN the economic aspect.

Anyway, as Jesus Christ said in the Bible: “You cannot bear them now.” Jesus said this 2000 years ago, but until now, still many people cannot bear the truth. No wonder the Rothschilds and the Illuminati keep on enslaving us, because we are an easy prey. Cannot understand the simple logic of Islam.

Ali,

Do they not chop off the hands of thieves? Would that be a good reason? In a moneyless world or even a fair world that uses money there would be less or no need to steal, and if all goods belonged to everyone you would only be stealing from yourself.
***
Muslims have overrun whole nations and used every device to force the people to become muslims, and muslims force their beliefs onto their children.
***
Almost certainly there is no god. No need for god. No way god could have come about. God is a delusion. This is sort of proved by the very real fact that different nations at different times have had different gods. Have you studied, as I did as a child, the humanist arguments?
***
Humanists try to understand how the idea of god came about. You should read the book by Grant Alan that I read as a child: The Evolution of the Idea of God. You might find it illuminating. You might reject its findings because your brain has fixed on an idea that cannot be undone.
***
You have beliefs. Beliefs are ideas. Ideas can be false, but they can make the believer feel that their belief is true and any opposing idea must be untrue. I think there is good reason for the brain to work in this way. Not for religious belief but simply to bring certainty to the individual to make them less nervous and more productive. This is likely to give them more children who also carry this trait.
***
I could go on but it is not for me to say why you are wrong so much as for you to say why you are right. And since you cannot prove your god exists you only have your creed and your customs which vary within Islam. Sunnis and Shias hate each other, so I would, if I were you, concentrate your efforts on bringing them together first, if you can.

Cheers,

Bob
***

THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR LETTING ME REACH AT THIS POINT. Peace!

(Islam literally means peace. Peace is all we need. Islam is all we need.)

CHEERS!!! Goodbye and goodluck to your endeavour to abolish money in our system. Rest assured that my heart and mind support this effort.

1. Sixpm posted the following on May 11, 2010 at 1:09 am.

   Hi Ali, I’m sorry to see that you are so disappointed, no matter who says what, you should still be who you are and should not get deterred just because someone said something you don’t like or wanted to hear. That is a part of our spiritual growth, don’t you think? If there is a God, then why do you think the purpose of ‘us’ here, and why he made us the way we are?

   I would still continue to be your friend if you wanted to, my email address is dannychau7@gmail.com.

   Hope you will change your mind, because what we’re doing here is about ‘our’ world, and you are part of it.

   Best,
   Danny

   Reply to Sixpm

Danny,

I disagree that the system isn’t the problem. I think it is. People are not perfect, far from it, but they are a product of a flawed system.
***
It is bound to be this way. Money divides us into haves and have nots. Those with power through money will try to keep it that way. Therefore we with less money need to pool our resources so that we are powerful enough to stand up to them.
***
If we are then on equal footing we can change their thinking too. We must combine economically in the shorter term so that in the longer term we can learn to live well without money.

Cheers,

Bob
***

Glad to see you have a sense of humor Danny. It may be the only thing that will get us through to the other side, whatever that may be.

Bob

1. Danny Chau posted the following on May 13, 2010 at 11:04 am.

   Unfortunately Bob, too many people are still in fear of God, fear of the retribution that they may have to face, because they have not the courage nor the wisdom to see past our basic primal instinct. I was born a Christian but I’ve been asking questions since I was about 7, as I remembered the church had a poster and it stated people who don’t believe in Christ the lord will be condemned to hell. My reaction then was what about in places where there are no churches or missionaries, then that isn’t fair to those people. Anyway I left the church when I was 12 and pursuit Spiritualism and now I know there is only ONE God and that is ‘me’. (This ‘me’ is refer to everyone of us who aware of the ‘I’ existence), it is this consciousness who is playing the game of hide and seek.

   We have ‘created’ all the problem that we are facing just for the hell of it, because there is no reason to ‘be’ otherwise.

   Best,
   Danny

   Reply to Danny Chau

Hi Q,

” a moneyless society is the only way to go.”

Do you mean as a goal? And if so, how might we reach that goal?

Cheers,

Bob
***

1. q_nologi posted the following on May 15, 2010 at 9:43 am.

   Proactively and out of necessity… Children are the most important thing on this earth, second… the elderly. Lastly… the planet. We here in the center are the working class and should be taking care of all of it.
   War, Prejudice, Subjugation, Executions, Torturing, Hatred, Crime, Poverty, Sin, Greed, Immoral Legislative Practices, Humankind, Human Nature … are all at fault for our possible demise.
   As I see it, there should only be two types of employment… one to better humankind and one to better the earth. Health, food, shelter and education should come free to anyone who participates within these parameters. If you become criminal… you remain criminal and will not receive. We give to many rights to the disobedient.
   Life needs to about the good being rewarded, not the bad being forgiven.
   As for where do we start… with the children. Only by living vicariously through our children’s resourcefulness will we be able to achieve this goal.

   Reply to q_nologi

This was recently posted on: http://www.zeitgeistmediaproject.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNa_r92tdTM

There are other postings there that include music and video. Check it out and tell your friends.

hope you are all doing well,

Bob W.

Listen, and listen good. I have been thinking about this moneyless society personally for some time now. I have it designed in my head. I have gone over many of the benefits, pitfalls and how to overcome them. I have pondered how to implement such a thing also. I have gone into great detail with this. But I have also come to the conclusion that the elite powers that be, the governments behind the governments (yes, most democracy is a diversion) simply would not allow it.

My thoughts have reached a singularity on this issue. The only way it would ever become a reality is if you let the ruling elite of today OWN it. The people we are talking about are the kind of people that have so much money that money for them means less than they thrill of ownership.

it is power that they seek. If you can get them interested in a new kind of power and sell them on the idea that they will be supreme rulers in this newly designed society, then you will appeal the the maniacal greed machine that they are.

They will happily fund the birth of such a place. (yes, it will cost money to experiment with on a small scale at first) They will take sick pleasure is sitting back and watching it grow, boasting to their friends that they own something unique and unattainable by anyone else.

Some of their other friend will grow envious of this, they will desire to start their own……

After some time, the factions will unite as war is no-longer profitable and eventually the money reliant society will fail to feed the inflation monster and come knocking at the door asking to join too.

Now, you may think I am looking too deep into this but thats because you arnt looking deep enough into things….

I have most of the fundamentals of how this works wizzing around in my head and all the pieces fit together quite well.

If anyone would like to or has the means to do something about this then contact me tommygun3nz@hotmail.com

It can be dont but it requires some big thinking, some political clout and an area of land around the size of a small state with a population that is willing. It also requires that, should it fail or be disbanded, everyone involed, every single person will be looked after and come out of it at least as well of as when the begun. Basically a large government would need to prop it up.

This is why we would need to experiment. Like even if you start with a big city. That would be ok. To be honest you could start with a town. So long as they government backs it up if it fails and can see the value in investing in it.

To be honest, they know tat the money system is collapsing and they are looking for a way out. There will come a time when the system collapses fully and the powers at be just throw their hands up and go…..What now? Thats when they will fully adopt the idea. When they have nowhere else to turn.

So, yeah guys contact me if you like. We will not have a money system when we are boosting around the galaxy in the next 5000 years so we might as well get rid of it now.

To be honest, if we had got rid of money we might be doing it already……ok Im gonna do now. rambling.

1. Danny Chau posted the following on July 18, 2010 at 8:55 am.

   Hi Tommy,

   Check this out:

   http://www.youtube.com/user/TZMSocialEvolution#p/a/u/2/30FNVNk3_zE

   Awakening talks about man power vs. automation

   Our Technical Reality talks about our technology that is already in use that will benefit the masses

   A Few Simple Question is that we have all the means to support our life on this planet for FREE but not the will

   I’m one of many on this planet who are ready for the new resource based economy. I will email you ‘The World without Money’ PDF book via email.

   Danny

   Reply to Danny Chau
   1. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on July 18, 2010 at 10:09 pm.

      Danny,

      All the Awakening and Technology videos are very good and contain information that could benefit us all. Most of us don’t think too deep about why things are the way that they are. TZM and TVP could be the catalyst that takes human consciousness to the next level, however actions speak louder than words. I believe that it is true that if over 50% of the world’s population began seriously considering the concepts of TZM and TVP and spreading the message, that the change would happen at a faster pace and that we may be able to save the environment. I try my best to spread the word, but am dismayed about how people, in general, receive this message. I can only hope that it is not at too late a date that people realize what we have to do. Once we reach a certain tipping point of environmental degradation, it may be irreversible, and we cannot let that happen. Even when money is ascertained as the cause of our present dilemma, and that its elimination is the only answer, most people will not accept that conclusion because they are afraid that their status quo will be affected. They see it as a distribution of wealth and they will lose out in the end. At least that’s the stumbling block I’m coming up against.

      Bob

      Reply to Bob Wilkinson
      1. Sixpm posted the following on July 18, 2010 at 11:03 pm.

         Hi Bob,

         It is scientifically proven that it only takes the square root of one percent of a given population, in dedicated focus, to effect change. This is about 8,500 awakened individuals in unified intent to have a significant impact for the ENTIRE world.

         Here is a link to one of the articles on this finding:

         http://www.australia.to/2010/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1635%3Aa-scientifically-validated-security-strategy-for-australia&catid=101%3Aaustralian-news&Itemid=167

         I feel that the world is moving towards a new paradigm, we don’t never 50% of the world’s population to begin this shift.

         The videos I posted is a fine evidence that the momentum is growing, and there is no return.

         Best,
         Danny

         Reply to Sixpm
      2. Sixpm posted the following on July 19, 2010 at 3:56 am.

         One message I would like to share with you all, which is received from channelling by Michael Quinsey:

         SaLuSa 19-July-2010

         Fame and wealth are looked upon as an achievement to be desired; yet so often they are difficult to handle. Your privacy which you value is intruded upon and literally your life is not your own. Some people are prepared to withstand such a loss, and live out their make believe lives in circumstances that are no guarantee of happiness. Show business is surrounded by glamour and the need for success, and failure is often experienced with inconsolable grief. So who can lead a so-called ordinary life and find happiness and satisfaction. The majority of people are in lives where they struggle to make ends meet, or even to survive. Yet some manage to find a purpose in life that does give satisfaction, and it is through serving others. When you have found a way to help others, it gives an inner feeling of having discovered a true path, that allows you to express your love and experience fulfillment.

         There is within each one of you a desire to love and be loved; yet not everyone can express that in terms of freely giving of themselves. The energy of love is powerful and can work miracles, and costs you nothing to share with others. When it is given without seeking reward, and with no conditions you are well on the way to being able to give unconditional love. That indeed should be the goal you are working towards, and if you struggle to achieve it do not be too concerned. With the ever-increasing upliftment of the vibrations you will naturally attract higher energy to yourself, and it will become much easier to hold the love vibration. Everyone can work towards such levels, and those that are successful rarely seek fame or gain beyond what is necessary for their immediate requirements. Lightworkers know their life plan and are not distracted by the search for fame, although it sometimes comes with success. It is knowing how to control it that prevents it from taking over your life, so that you can continue with full focus on your work.

         Service to others is not necessarily seen as an attractive occupation, yet its rewards are manifold. You cannot take anything with you when you complete your life plan, but you will have the inner growth and joy of having spent it in a beneficial way. It does not require that you become one of the leading lights, and every contribution however small helps uplift the level of the mass consciousness. The capitalist way of thinking tends to promote greed, but there are of course some successful people who because they are blessed that way, do not forget to share their wealth. Because of it they sometimes achieve exceptional levels of generosity, but it is not the amount that is important but the thought behind it. This is exemplified by the biblical story of the widow’s mite, as she gave when her needs were as great as anyone else’s.

         So where are we heading with our message and why now, and we will tell you that the changes on Earth are becoming more widespread, and leaving many people in dire need of help. That position will worsen for all manner of reasons, and it begs of you that until it changes for the better that you try to help ease other people’s distress. The challenge of these times is putting a lot of pressure on you, but you can help prevent it becoming chaotic by getting together and organizing some kind of relief. It will provide an answer until the coming of real help, and the changes in your governments that will start a new era of beneficial changes on a large worldwide scale.

         Be assured that at all times we continue to keep a check on the well being of Mother Earth, with your Ascension in mind. There is a balance that we are responsible for, and it stops matters really getting out of hand. You will complete this cycle as decreed and in that sense it does not matter whatever the dark Ones attempt to do, they will not stop completion as planned. After all Dear Ones, you may conjecture that you have God on your side, and the Light is all-powerful. In reality God favors no one, but allows all souls to experience as they desire, using their God given freewill. In fact God loves all souls and is waiting to welcome them back to the Source, by which time your Light will have been completely restored.

         As fellow travelers we admire your confidence and tenacity in taking on duality, as it is far removed from the wonderful levels of Light that you came from. Now you are at the end of your journey and hardly realize what you have achieved. To have left your home of absolute beauty and bliss amongst the stars, and an enduring state of being within the love vibration was an immense decision to take. You were aware of the nature of the challenge, and took heart that whatever happened you would never be forsaken. You were promised help and direction, so that no matter how far you became immersed in the lower energies you would rise up again. That promise has been kept, and already you have emerged from the dark sufficiently, to recognize your own divinity and link to the Light. The awakening continues to speed up and you are beginning to feel the expansion in your consciousness. Now Ascension is in your sights and so near to taking place, that you have only a few more years before you lift up with Mother Earth.

         When you look at the larger picture, realize that you can ignore what is going on around you as it cannot last long, and you are stepping onto a new path that leaves it all behind. The new paradigm is taking shape, and as you focus on the future will imbue it with the power to manifest. You are creating all of the time but now you have the powerful energies directed to Earth, and they are far more potent than ever before. Because of this latent power it is in fact good practice to monitor your thoughts and emotions, and direct them only for the good of all. As time passes you will be helped to master such a degree of control, and it is one of our tasks when we arrive upon Earth. We come to do much that is of a physical nature, but we do not forget that your upliftment is for your spiritual evolution.

         I am SaLuSa from Sirius, and already feel the joy at the thought of traveling with you for the last part of your journey. We come as friends and for many also as family, but more importantly as your spiritual mentors and guides. You shall feel our love that we give unconditionally, and it will lift you up out of any worries or concerns you may still have.

         Thank you SaLuSa.
         Mike Quinsey.

         My address is michael.quinsey@mypostoffice.co.uk

         Reply to Sixpm
2. chris posted the following on August 10, 2010 at 7:08 pm.

   did you then ever ponder that it may not in fact be as much that fact that money has a medium use that in itself is the problem but rather it may be that the particular group in control of that money have a grossly unfair advantage and use that to steel the wealth of the working masses to stuff their accounts to unfairly enrich themselves. Take the United States. Prior to the institution of the Federal reserve, 80% of all real estate was owned by the individuals. Only 20% was in possession of corporations and government. Today less than 20% is owned by the people. Corporations and the Government which is another corporation are the owners of 80% of the real estate. All that occurred in less than 100 years, if the solution you are looking for is for government to change things to a fair system you must realize the nasty system that is currently decimating the quality of life in this land came exactly from that source.

   Reply to chris

Chris, you are missing the mark here. With no money, there will be no point to try to cheat the system. The only way to get to the top will be to become valuable to society and, I don’t know, build a new propulsion system or something. Getting a noble prize would secure you a place near the top for example

Your right, money is not the issue. Its mans greed for it. So take it away. Design a society where the only way to get to the top is by earning it yourself from scratch. Design it so that when someone employs the tactics that money hoarders do in todays world, they are punished and de-rank.

People often talk about the whole russia thing but that is a miss understanding of that I am talking about. I am not suggesting in my earlier post that we have a welfare based system. That will never work. what I am getting at is a system made so tat everyone is born at level 1. In their life they can rank to level 100. But almost nobody ever will.

The higher you rank, the better life you will have. you will not get money at all. its does not exist.

If you are level 40, you can eat at the level 4 food places and talk on a level 4 phone, drive a level 4 car for example.

Could be that each time you level up, you will get points to spend on whatever you like to design your life. No, these points are not like money. They are not transferable, do not gain interest or anything like that.

That bottomless greed some have will cause them to want to level up. To walk into a room and know they are the highest in there and if there is another that is higher they will aspire to be like them.

The russia thing is nothing like this. People will work like they do today to keep the lifestyle they have.

Eventually the plan will be that the positive direction man is not taking will lead to more and more automation. Machines building machines.
Only in this system, it also takes away jobs, BUT THAT IS A GOOD THING!!

The “unemployed” will not be losing their house or inundated with bills struggling to buy groceries. They will sleep in, relax and only works 4 days a week instead of 5. Then 4. Then 3. Then 2. Then 1. Then humans will be completely serviced by machines and out planet will be a batter place to live.

Just sucks if you are a robot.

If anyone would like to challenge me here to try to destroy my system then I welcome it. So far I have not found a reason why this wont work except that the people in power today would not allow it.

1. chris posted the following on August 11, 2010 at 4:54 pm.

   you are unfortunately renaming money into a points system and are then remaking the same exact thing which has never worked well and setting it up for the same criminal element to take advantage of those less aggressive. Far more could be done today by all decent people just using cash for their transactions to remove the government equation from their lives. it would not be totally an improvement but much more so than the nothing otherwise. Greed is a hard thing to break of a man. I really don’t have a problem with free enterprise. If a true free enterprise system ever existed, good people would fare well. Capitalism and communism are two different words for essentially the very same thing. Under the one system the means of production are in a corporations holding of the then called state. An non-fiction and upper declared righteous owners of the world who take for themselves and leave crumbs for the populace who created that wealth. Under capitalism the special self indulgent individuals calling themselves CEO’s purchase government through fake elections, advertisement, etc. hold the means to production, eliminate competition throughout licensing, militarized policing agencies etc. then place their victims into their system of slavery for their benefit. The only difference being who the working individual then calls their owner or master. The only thing that can be in reality a difference is that a person have control over their own destiny in totality. Neither of the two system nor what has general been described address that issue. Certainly the banking insurance finance industry should be abolished. These are about the most evil group upon the face of the earth. The creation of money out a thin air and then charging working persons interest at the outrageous interest at which they do should be able to be seen by even the most infantile mind that that in down right immoral. If you create a system where all that is then just hidden behind a curtain but still affecting the lives of persons, you have not even begun to address the problems that plague mankind. Fact, of the matter, The average working person with his vices in check, if he is working a 40 hour week with the machination of todays world, without all the theft that currently occurs were to place his wealth to his advantage (I’m not talking about interest, stock market etc) He would be able to stop working and live off his creation the balance of his life, by the age of 30.
   You further don’t go into who decides on the point system. Most likely it will be the same kind of a morale persons that currently run the banking, federal reserve system, and or criminal government positions which attract only that element. Since government has always created problems rather than solve them if another corporation is then set up to likewise set something as such up then it is then doomed from the get go. A couple years ago, The DC crowd started a program called neighborhood revitalization. Long before implementation people in government had it figured how to steal that wealth. It was to supposedly help poor persons with housing problems. Most of that money went to persons making in excess of 60,000. a year. persons with a guaranteed retirement income in the future and I don”t mean socialist insecurity. Meanwhile person truly in need just wanted 10 or so gallons of paint, and willing to pay their own labor were told that was not going to be possible, the monies had dried up. We don’t even have it amongst us for the most part to address other then the most violent criminals amongst us. We have tolerated a drug war that has dragged on for more than 50 years with a massive loss in effectiveness. Our towns are in shambles with vandalism. And still no near interest in addressing those issues. Why should insurance companies be making monies off misfortune. These companies only pay out 15% of what comes in. Administrative cost are not that high. Check out the homes those persons live in. You may say that going into a money less system will address those issues, but I guaranteed, it’s those very same persons who will implement the point system. They will take l0 points for themselves and leave you with one. It matters not what superficial you do, something concrete has to occur to eliminate unfairness.It’s not unfair that the drunk who never solber’s up has less than the fine surgeon. It certainly is unfair, the thief who breaks into your property to unfairly advantage himself. It certainly is unfair the government entity who taxes those to embellish themselves where the masses get pathetic so called services. Only a system which address all the loopholes that create these unfair advantages will make an improvement in peoples lifestyle. Further, unless people have the opt out privilege the system fails at the get go. Insurance is a good guide on that. When auto insurance became mandatory in Louisiana about 10 years ago the oligarch had full control on the major assets of the working persons. Price escalated as attorneys, doctors and insurance person began filing their pockets. The further the wealth departs from your pocket the less you get for it and the worse your lot in life becomes.The people have to have serious check and balance power over the vested interest.

   Reply to chris

Most of us here who visit this forum have their ideal vision of a more perfect world, One that isn’t designed to concentrate money to a few privileged individual groups, and/or classes like we do now. The real problem we face is convincing the masses that we need to change. This is what I find to be most difficult. Last night I played and sang the song Imagine by John Lennon, for a group of about 200 people here at a family campground in the mountains of Northern California. I made it a sing along where everybody sang along with me. It was fun and I received many compliments. However, even though they agree with the philosophy of the words, “Imagine there is no Heaven, Imagine there is no Countries, Imagine no Possession, and Imagine people sharing all the world,” in my conversations with the campers here, they dismiss my notions of a money-less society as an idealized utopia that cannot be attained because it is against human nature, and that everyone would be lazy and not work etc. There is really no need to argue about who has the better idea until we figure out how to get the message to more people and convince them that change is needed if we are to save humanity. Once we have sufficient numbers, we can go from there. I like the discussions and like reading everyone’s ideas, as they all have some merit, but what we need is a way to get the message out to more people. What do you think?

1. Sixpm posted the following on August 12, 2010 at 11:05 pm.

   I still believes in the 100 monkey syndrome and that is we only need a small percentage of people hold this strong will and belief that it CAN and it WILL happen is enough to overturn the consciousness of the masses. So the idea of ‘impossible’ or it is because of ‘human nature’ is just don’t stick with me or for us to access our higher powers within our DNA and consciousness.

   Afterall, we have created this reality first with our thought, so we can do the revert it in the same manor.

   Reply to Sixpm

Im up for it , but unless we get main stream society ,thinking and debating about it, it wont happen.
The World Wide Strike 2012 will do just that IF we all participate in the call out.
The collective Call Out will start the weekend commencing 29th April 2011 so get out that weekend , hang banners from high buildings and fly overs, World Wide Strike 2012 to Abolish Money. conspire with friends, be imaginative , get your camera out , take full advantage of the media, be positive , be active, party to celebrate the 2012 World Strike to Abolish Money
debates are going on now http://www.strike2012.org http://www.worldwidestrike2012.blogspot.com twitter follow strike2012 dont let the negativity stop you being positive , being passive wont change things, your world need YOU to be pro-active. Keep the faith April 29th 2011 weekend party in london ending May 1st in your locale promote , hang those banners from local flyovers…. central call outs need local back ups….Smile

Money is the source of all problems of humanity. Get rid of this man-made problem and everyone will be happy. Barter trade is the solution. Selfless giving hoping for the reward of God here in this world and the hereafter (jihad) is the motivation. Who is not going to give when he is guaranteed of more blessings in this world and a paradise in the next life

Hi Ali,

We are all part of the great divinity, this means we are all Gods too, and we are also part responsible for co-creating our reality.

Life we’re in are nothing but a game within the mind of divinity or god, we are all ONE of the same, and we are the same consciousness experiencing this illusory life from a different perspective.

When we refer the ‘me’ or ‘I am’, we are referring to the same ‘me’ and ‘I am’ of the great divinity, only we are experiencing temporarily in a self created separation.

The reason that there are so many opinions and expressions in life is because god or the divinity would like to exercise this as a freewill (freedom of expression). If not then why the creation allow this simple rule? If god is so mightily powerful, then why not design us to be perfectly obedient and have no negative thoughts and create a ‘perfect’ world so no money, no crime, no freewill and that we are no different to programed robots?

We are all living in life within a domain of duality, so it is natural to have all the different shades of grey between black and white, we are already complete, perfect and whole and it is because life has no meaning, and because the divinity aware of it’s own consciousness so life was a creation to breakdown the boredom of being alone.

Everything that we experienced are all DISTORTIONS in the illusory life, right and wrong is a distortion within duality, so as all the opposites. We all have split personality within this life in duality, it is a game of our own creation, all acts of ‘negativity’ and ‘positivity’ are derived from this temporal reality.

Nothing has ever existed outside of our consciousness, just as there was never any substance in physical matter, you can now look up to all the facts published by the quantum scientist, they found nothing in matter, only empty spaces.

Did you ever wonder why you can ‘see’ light when your brain is held in complete darkness inside of your head? Because what we ‘see’ are nothing but a projection within our collective consciousness, when I say our collective consciousness, I do mean exactly that. All matters are holographic in nature and all are existed only in mind and consciousness, as the invisible nucleus is vibrating and gyrating in all dimension at the same time to create this illusion we call reality.

Time is just another distortion within our limited consciousness, and we experience different length of time depending on our mental or states of consciousness, some ‘time’ is longer or shorter than another. In our awake state, we are in the ‘space-time’ dimension and when we go to sleep we aware of the ‘time-space’ dimension.

Both dimension are real when we are conscious and both are not if we are not. This is very similar to our own consciousness, we all drift in and out of consciousness in our daily life, when we go to bed, we gradually loose our ‘consciousness’ then regain this back in the morning, so why we bother to fight? to compete? to hate? to kill?

Not asking question of our true identity is also an act of being unconscious, accepting all that is feed to us without question is also an act of unconsciousness.

I am a fictitious figure in your consciousness as you are in mine, we are one and the same.

“All forms of judgement are acts of the unconscious on the unconscious.”

May you too see the ‘light’ in finding your true self and identity – your god divine nature.

We are all beings of love and light, so love, light, peace and tranquility is our birth right, I hope you too find these godly quality within you and to enjoy your life.

CAUTION, the latest comments are detracting far from the intended purpose of this page.

To continue down this path will dilute the function of this page.

I suggest refraining from religious comments and to continue down the path of sharing ideas and information of a new way of living without the tyranny of money.

If you wish to spit at each other over belief systems, this is NOT the place and you are NOT welcome here.

Please leave.

I challenge anyone who is reading this message to make comment on exactly how we are to get the current money system out the door and replaced with a non monetary system.

It might be that you simply let the economies that are falling, fall and as they do, one by one they join the no money system…..

And other ideas?

Tommy,

I have told you how it can be done. Do you agree with me or do you want to look for another way. And Nick, I think you’ll find that whilst we humans are individually reasonably smart, collectively we have a lot to learn.
***
You don’t need to try so hard to convince others of the benefits of a moneyless economy, the benefits are pretty obvious to anyone with a brain, but how do we get there and how do we hold it all together? You haven’t even started to think about that yet.
***
Nor does thinking about it provide the answers we need. Only trying it out will give us real answers. Mark Boyle and others are trying it out, but we need a much larger number who can set themselves up so that they are halfway between the money economy and the moneyless one.
***
That is to say they buy what they cannot make or grow, and they make and grow what they can. We cannot make land, so we buy that. We can grow trees and food, so we do that. Some things we can get for nothing. It is the waste from this society, which we can reuse or recycle. This is what I do. I buy land. I buy vehicles. I grow food. I grow trees. What do all you guys do?

Cheers,

Bob
***

1. chris posted the following on December 3, 2010 at 10:34 pm.

   moniless I’m not sure about, however,
   federal reserve noteless yes, certainly any world bank currency should not be acceptable, the oppressive world oligarch which have hindered peace on thie planet must be harshly delt with, some have indicated anniliation, I certainly would not be dead set against that as they are worse than these hypothertical terrorist constantly talked about, but at a minimum would be life imprisonment and the whold families preferablly on a remote island, not just the 4,000 families but thier immediate associates. All thier sympathizer should be identified and at least noted and watched for activities subversive to the common good. The evil of insurance should certainly be abolished. The wealthy oligarch have used this nuisance filing the fraudulent claims to vastly steal funds to rebuild thier homes and feather thier nest with fake car accidents and thefts.most persons are in close perspective of the banking evils and need no furhter education. Government has been the bat boy for the oligarchy. Governement control by the oligarchy would best be modified by elimination of the bar association monlolopy on government. If a personl is a member of the bar association they should not be permitted to hold any government office. They should not have a monopoly in the courts, nor shold they be paid by the government for indigent defenders (Those should be conducted gratis) for far too long they have extended cases to milk assets to thier favor. Without funding at the people of large many cases will adjure more quickly. Fat judges will also then not benefit unfairly at the expense of the productive.

   Reply to chris

Nick,

You haven’t a clue about me. I was born with nothing and spent most of my life with very little. I have given up all normal life in order to save up to try to help the whole human population. I admit I was left money recently. When my father died and then when my uncle died. My father was careful with money. He was a factory worker who was made redundant many years ago and who took up teaching ballroom dancing three nights a week. My uncle was a street sweeper after being a dustbin man all his working life till he was 65. He was a soldier in the second world war but he never spoke of it. My father was down the coal mines in the war.
***
In other words I am not privileged but solid working class. I haven’t bought any clothes since 1978, just worn any I’ve found or been given. Same with shoes but from 1979. That is over thirty years of saving that money to buy land so that you or whoever chooses can grow food, but so far no-one has chosen. I don’t smoke or drink (booze) or take drugs, not even tea or coffee etc. I very rarely buy anything for myself, I just save save save so that I can help others. I keep offering to help you but you refuse any help I might give you. That is your choice.
***
Nick, I have not rejected any methods. I have wished you and others success, but I think it is worth pointing out the likely outcome of various types of action. I have been trying different methods for a long time and most methods don’t work. I’ve been looking for the most efficacious plan possible, and now that I think I have found it I want everyone to know, just as you think you have found a similarly speedy plan, and I wish you great success with it. We will find out how good the plan is on the day.
***
You can call me a fascist if you like. I asked Danny if he agreed because I want to know, not because I think he should. Maybe he has a better plan. Maybe you do. No need to explain it all to me. I’m a nobody. I hope you succeed. If others were doing it it would take the strain off me.
***
You say you are looking at every way possible but my way. Well since my way includes all the other ways then you must be rejecting all ways. I reject no ways, but some ways carry within them the seeds of their own destruction. How smart are you Nick? Maybe pretty smart. If you get together with a bunch of others how smart will the group be? Will it be your smart times the number of members? Groups rarely are unless the members have been carefully selected. As I say, we need to learn collective intelligence. Teamwork. I need to learn it. We all need to learn it. We are taught to be individuals, and we are pretty good at that. If we were as good at collective intelligence we wouldn’t be in the mess we are in. And yes, individuals need to learn too.
***
You say my plan is never going to happen soon. You might be right. Is your own plan going to happen soon? I hope it does, I really do.
***
I think I do have an open mind. I search for new insights in what others write. Do you? What is negative and prejudiced about what I say? Don’t we want the same thing, a world in which no-one dies of starvation and so on? I have been looking for some way or ways to do that for fifty years and looked at various plans including the idea of going on strike. It is an old idea that works in certain circumstances. Maybe it will work in 2012.
***
You say: “why should we wait for you privileged people to tell us when WE are ready for transition? “

Nick, did I tell you to wait? I say go for it. Show us what you are made of. It will be brilliant if you get the whole world talking about going moneyless. The rest of us failed. You might succeed.
***
You say you want a moneyless world now. I wish it could be so. But how long do we have to wait for this “now” to arrive. I think what you mean by “now” is as soon as possible. I also think in terms of “as soon as possible”. I am not like the WSM. I do not say we have to wait for a majority. I say quite clearly that it only takes one person to start it all off. Can I put it any clearer?
***
I do not go along with the vanguard idea. It is for those who are ready to start taking action. I don’t understand how you can misunderstand my so much. I argue with the WSM about their methods, but they and I agree that we should not form vanguards. It is not a case of signalling OK. But if others are holding back and if I have any success they can use my success as their signal to get a move on, if they choose. My approach is bottom up, not top down. I’m not at the top, I’m at or near the bottom.
***
I’m not here to defend the WSM. If you think my plan is unrealistic, which it might be, then can you improve on it? You say: “ most of us will never aspire to buy land”. Why is that Nick? Is it because you don’t get enough money? Maybe you live without money. It is possible in the UK. But if you want to grow food then you need access to land. I’ll go further and say that all the people need access to the land. What is wrong with that? But should we just take it? Is that part of your plan?
***
Just to come back to your term “now”. You don’t really mean “now” in the sense of 2010, do you? Nor 2011. You are waiting for 2012 for your strike, then however long it takes after that for negotiations. What if negotiations take decades? That would put our plans on the same level. What if negotiations break down? If you are dealing with those at the top you are at their mercy. If you build up from the bottom they are at our mercy. Think about it.

Cheers,

Bob
***

Dear ALL,

I have been intently listening and watching your Ideas.

I will not single you out but I will say that most of the ideas are absolute CRAP!

I hear things like “grow your own food and trees” What are you a damn hippie?

Will those trees further the development of nanotech? What about bio electric engineering and the development of synthetic life?

I hear things like, “what would be the incentive to work?”

Obviously you guys have not been listening to the posts I have been making ages ago.

Capitalism has taken is pretty much as far as it can. The down sides of that system are now out weighing the good.

You guys talk of huge world change. But if the good side of capitalism can remain and not the bad, then that would be the ultimate system.

Your tiny brains seem to think that capitalism is synonymous with MONEY.

Capitalism does not require money.

We can still keep capitalism.

Look, I explain the PERFECT system again…… To understand the concept you must put your opinions aside for a moment and just LISTEN silently.

Theres NO money. Everything else is almost the same.

Normally we work for a reward, that reward is money. Our single goal in life it to get money. This is not helpful in furthering the human species.
But we do it anyway cos we want to get things with the money right?

In the new system, the reward is not money and it is certainly not the good feeling of a job well done either. (as some have suggests above)

The reward for working is LIFESTYLE. In todays world you are rewarded for doing things that are profitable.

In the new world, you are rewarded for doing things that are HELPFUL TO HUMANITY AND TO FURTHER OUR SPECIES.
(The legislation for this is set in stone. Think of it like a new constitution that is amended from time to time)

When you are born you are level 1. The objective is to try to get to level 100 before you die. (very few will make it.)

As your level increases, you are given a specific level of lifestyle. You increase your level by being USEFUL TO HUMANITY.

Example,

Little Johnny just left high school and had excellent results. He has now reached level 5. He can now be accepted into a better university. Universities are free (cos there is no money) and they are set out with level 1,2 and 3 universities.

Johnny has done very well as he made humanity a little smarter on average so gets to attend a level 3 university.

Now, the teachers at the university are level 30 something. They want to level up so they are given a better lifestyle.
(larger housing in a better area with a better car etc….IF that how they want to spend their non monetary, non transferable lifestyle points).

So, one day the principle of the university dies of a heart attack. There is a vacancy. The teacher that fills the position has got a promotion.

Each year everyone is audited on a cyclic ongoing basis. When you can demonstrate that you have contributed to humanity enough and inline with the legislation, then you are awarded a level increase.

So the new principle is now a level 36 and invites his friends around for a big party because next month he will move t a better area of town.
Down there on Seaspray drive where all that new development is going on…….

There is now increased pressure on the builders to build new and bigger and better houses. Now the builders have an opportunity to increase there level.
And so, the whole system repeats itself……..

The car makers are now required to make newer cars as both the principal and builders are now entitled to later model cars.

Now the car manufacturer that makes the best cars (the ones selected most by the public = best for humanity…) they will also get a level up. The company is also under a level based system too and when it does well then it can level up and expand. The workers at the company can now also level up as they got selected for promotions when the company expanded.

You guys need to not just read what I am telling you but also fully understand it. This world really can operate on a level based system.

Here, look at world hunger for example. The single reason world hunger exist is because there is no PROFIT to be made in feeding poor people.
There is no profit to be made in curing their disease.

With the new system, people would be RUSHING over to do something about it so they could EARN a level increase. The administrators of the system/governments would be more than happy to reward those who travel overseas on humanitarian efforts because the more you level people up, the more demand you create for goods and services and the more others will level up and the cycle repeats itself.

Cant you guys see that THIS plan is one that will generate the infinite growth that this world needs? That capitalism needs?

You most likely have lots a questions at the moment. Like “but who decides how this work?” “Who controls the system..?”

Please ask all the questions you like. I have tried to destroy my idea and I can’t. Most of your questions will be ill thought out because you have not fully understood the concept simply because for our whole lives we have only known a money system.

Understand that you will only be able to run for government when you have achieved a level 80+.

You don’t just get elected. You must EARN the right to get elected.

You cannot vote unless you are level 40+

You must earn the right to vote. I have often wondered why a murderer who spent years in jail at the cost of the tax payer still gets to vote.

In the new system, you will get to vote once you have earned it and also your vote is worth more when you are a higher level.
for example a level 50 vote is worth 1.3 votes. Or maybe we could let everyone vote but you only get 0.2 votes if you are level 15. So it is on a kind of scale.

The point I am making here is that we do not need to go back to farming and simple living like a hippie. We just need to eliminate money and replace it with a system that promotes human expansion.

Imagine a group of smart people decide they want to build a spaceship to go to Mars with 10,000 people and set up camp.

In todays money system you would need to have some special ore or reason to go to Mars so you can make profit.

In the new world this is not the case. We could go there and make a Noahs ark in case something like a meteorite impact ruins earth.

Obviously this is great for mankind. People will attempt to build this huge spacecraft just so they can level up and have a better life.
(Which Ironically, is the same reason people want profits in the first place, to create a better life for themselves.)

So we can see that the end result of the no money system is creating all the money system has created and more because it does not suffer the same limitations the money system does.

There are no people with a hundred billion dollars while everyone else has none. You get to level 100 and you are old and you have 25 cars including 5 Ferrari and 3 Porches. You have a big Yacht and a private jet too.

You can make it big in this system, but not at the expense of others and not stupid big.

How do countries trade?

A country rich in Copper simply mines it and distributes it free of charge to other countries in order of demand.
in return, that country gets whatever it needs. No score counted.

Its important that you realize that when I say country, I mean land mass.

To begin this system, any one that joins it must become part of the whole. So, in effect, it is all one place.

It might be that the USA decides to give up one state, a small one. As a test. With an opt out period.

If things are going good then another state will take part simply because they want a piece of the action.

Eventually in covers he earth. All that are hungry get fed an all that are sick get treatment. ALL children are schooled and looked after.

ALL will have a chance to better themselves for free and contribute to the future of mankind.

I want people to voice their opinions about this and I challenge you to find a problem with this system that cannot be resolved.

Remember everything is free. But if you want to eat at a fine dining top level 5 restaurant, you have to earn it.
If you don’t want to thats ok too, but you will eat at a mass feeding station.

Maybe even……McDonalds!!!!

Just to put things right , if there is NO money then there is NO capitalism. Great. After money the most common sought after thing is RESPECT
and in a non capitalist society those that work hard for the good of humanity will get more respect than those that dont. Great.
Having different levels will only create hier-achys , and elitist groups and at the same time de-value others. Further, who is to judge what activity is better that another activity? How do we quantify the social impact of Art etc.
Very , Very dangerous to create value on and of human beings.
Sorry mate idea rejected on the grounds of human equality.

1. Tommy posted the following on December 2, 2010 at 4:09 am.

   Nick!! You just are not grasping it.

   It not respect you are getting rewarded with. You are getting rewarded with the things that you would spend money on.

   Like, holidays and cars and weddings and food and new socks and kitchen appliances……..

   Your life will pretty much be the same. You work and you do well and your lifestyle increases. Every level up you redisign your life how you want it with the points you have earned.

   You do not get paid in respect. You get paid as you are allowed to live the life of a specific level.

   Example, a doctor is deemed valuable to society. So he get to be a higher level. He never got there cos his dad was rich and could send him to a good school. He did this and earned it himself.

   BEING EQUAL TO OTHER HUMANS IS A GOOD THING>

   Yes there will be a hyrachial society. And why should there not be? Should a drunken street bum live the same lifestyle as a lawyer or doctor or airline pilot? NOOOOOOO!

   You asked who is to judge what activity is valued.

   This is modeled of our world today. We know that Doctors are valuable. We reach this conclusion with reason. Valuable or not valuable can be decided in the same way we would decide how serious crimes are today.

   We decide how serious a crime is by the effect it has on the victim and the families and society. Its the same Idea only we just asses the positive effect of actions taken by people.

   Its all done in a formal court style situation. Then signed into law.

   Simple.

   Nick, I smell a resistance about you. Th idea I have put fourth is sound. Its like you have already decided its a bad idea and then you have gone looking for reasons that support your view.

   Why is it VERY VERY DANGEROUS?

   Do you not have a value placed on your head when you agree to work for a specific wage? Th views you have put fourth are ill thought out.

   I liked you question about art though. Well done.

   But still the answers obvious. We judge the value of art by assessing the demand for people to come and see it.

   You set up a gallery and nobody comes you fail and no level up for you! But, if its a hit and people love it then you did well. You paint some more and you become famous then you level up more!

   Just like if people like a new soft drink your company created then your company will level up and be able to expand and have access to more resources etc…

   Nick, think of a damn good question that means my system cannot work. I don’t live in denial. If you ruin my system then I must accept it is ruined.

   Reply to Tommy

Hi Tommy,

Let us assume that your idea and my idea are both equally worth trying. Then let us try them. One might predominate or they might both attract different people and half the world might follow your system and half mine. Or there might be other ideas that people follow and there will be three or four systems in place instead of just capitalism being dominant. Indeed there might be hundreds of systems that suit hundreds of different types of people. And these systems could interact for mutual benefit.
***
I have a plan for how to start my system off and I have saved up for it and done various experiments already. We can compare notes as we progress. I hope you also have a plan of how to get started. Would you like to share it with the rest of us?
***
I could suggest that you talk with neighbours to see what they think. That is what I aim to do. I’m keeping my powder dry for the moment, but I’ll be knocking on doors at some point in the next two or three years. There are a few things I want to do first so that I have something with which to impress. That’s always a good idea. Not just a flash car and a bank statement, but a variety of other (small) achievements.
***
I wish you all the best. May the best ideas win. Note I said ideas, not idea.

Cheers,

Bob
***

Hi Everyone,

I first visited this blog some time ago. For what it’s worth this time I was suprised not to see lots more new contributors!

Time is running out as can be seen from the following video: http://bit.ly/gSLzMh

Regards

1. Robert Howes posted the following on December 3, 2010 at 1:33 pm.

   Hi Brian,

   Your link didn’t work so I modified it to get: http://www.ageofcooperation.com/

   Are you the author?

   Cheers,

   Bob
   ***

   Reply to Robert Howes

I don’t like the way this site jumbles the messages. I do a search to find them. I found the last two by searching (CTRL F) for december 3,
***
I’ve set it for december 4, now.

Cheers,

Bob
***

What would happen if a paradigm shift in what society valued began change? Could a moneyless society then be feasible? If so, how many generations would something like that take?

1. Sixpm posted the following on December 10, 2010 at 12:31 am.

   It will take no time at all Justin, otherwise it wouldn’t be a paradigm shift. Look at the Wikileaks for example, this is more than just leaks, it is about ‘change’ or ‘disclosure’ that lots of people are talking about, the change IS HAPPENING right before our eyes.

   I meet plenty of people now whom are ready to do work for free once the world is do away without money, because this is the freedom that we should have had a long long time ago.

   We all have been enslaved by our negative ego nature of being, this is now realised and recognised more and more by the day, it is the consciousness shift that we all have been waiting for.

   The reason you asked this question is because you too are aware something is happening in our ‘reality’.

   Reply to Sixpm
   1. Tommy posted the following on December 10, 2010 at 3:28 am.

      You guys still don’t understand.

      People will not ever work for nothing. Why would they?

      But thats ok cos in the system I have told about, you work for almost exactly what you receive now its just hat you work DIRECTLY for lifestyle and the money part is skipped.

      Read the above “Tommy” posts. You’ll see what I mean…..

      Still, nobody has been able to poke holes in my new system. I want people to try to destroy my idea. If it hold up then its good.

      Reply to Tommy

Tommy,

I’m not interested in destroying your idea, all I want to know is how are you going to bring it into being?

Over to you…

Bob
***

1. Tommy posted the following on December 11, 2010 at 4:19 pm.

   Start with each country that wants to take part gifting an area of landmass to the cause. Then call these places one place. Even though they are spread over the world, you can think of them as the same place for the trial period.

   After an agreed amount of time there is an opt out option. Something like that.

   In a courtroom style environmant, the collective with debate about the rules of the land and first adopt very similar laws and introduce a justace system and write some kind of constitution out.

   Then debate about what positions in society are valuable or not. Then each job title is given a rating. unemployed is low, nasa engineer is high for example.

   Each land mass has people that have agreed to be part of the new world. I am sure there will be no shortage of them.

   Governemnt would need to promise to put each person back into the lifestyle they left behind should the system be abandoned for any reason in the future.

   So once the legislations are all passed and the rules are set in place and the levels designed and everything, people can be introduced to the areas and told to simple begin doing things that are good for humanity.

   Obviously everyone has been taught how the system works prior and have all been selected in order to make sure every part of society is covered. like to make sure there are doctors and things and teachers and skills meet the systems needs.

   It would take the governments involved to fund at start up to some degree. Just to get things moving.

   On day one, everyone will be low level. remember town will already be built up and things and people will be paid to move out if the dont want part of the system.

   So everyone is assigned a house to stay in based on there job or level.

   At first its still a money system. But job discription by job discription you systematically move people onto the no money system.
   You so this stratigically and progressivly.
   eventually everyone has been issues with a no money ID card that can simply be swiped at the shop when you want food.

   There WILL be issues. But nothing that cannot be fixed and amended.

   Once the system has been wound up and people are leveling up thn it can expand. The quality of life will exceed the quality of life outside in the old system and the rest of the country will want to join.

   Eventually the system spans the globe and money is all but illiminated.

   Reply to Tommy
   1. Robert Howes posted the following on December 11, 2010 at 5:05 pm.

      Tommy,

      What level of life would be given to those who could not contribute due to being too young, too old, too feeble and so on? Would they get just a basic life or an enhanced one?
      ***
      Your system is a meritocracy, and there is nothing wrong with that for those that choose it. My own system is more akin to socialism (from each according to ability, to each according to need).
      ***
      No-one needs a Ferrari and someone needs to build them. If those building them didn’t get to drive them they might decide not to build them. And mechanics might decide not to fix them. I am a mechanic but I have never worked on a Ferrari.
      ***
      Has any meritocracy ever worked?

      See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy

      Origin of term

      The term itself was defined by British politician and sociologist, Michael Young in his 1958 satirical essay,[4][5][6][7][8] “The Rise of the Meritocracy”, which pictured the United Kingdom under the rule of a government favouring intelligence and aptitude (merit) above all. The essay is written in the first-person by a fictional historical narrator in 2032, and interweaves history from the politics of pre and post-war Britain with those of fictional future events in the short (1960 onwards) and long term (2020 onwards).[9]
      The essay itself was based upon the tendency of the then-current governments in their striving towards intelligence to ignore shortcomings and upon the failure of education systems to correctly utilize gifted and talented members within their civilizations.[10]
      Young’s fictional narrator describes that on one hand, the “stolid mass” or majority is not the greatest contributor to society, but the “creative minority” or “restless elite”.[11] Yet on the other hand, describes that there are casualties of progress whose influence is underestimated and that from such stolid adherence to natural science and intelligence, arises arrogance and complacency.[11] The casualties of this progress described by the phrase “Every selection of one is a rejection of many”

      Cheers,

      Bob
      ***

      Reply to Robert Howes
      1. Tommy posted the following on December 11, 2010 at 5:24 pm.

         Bob,

         The people that work at the Ferrari plant in todays world cannot afford them. But they still work there.

         Its cos they want to provide for their families.

         The old, sick or disabled people will be looked after much the same way they are in our world today.
         (accept they wont be on a money based payout that can leave them without the things they need when the economy slides in the wrong direction.)

         They will be a low level. But not as low as someone that CHOOSES not to work.

         The will have the choice to stay home or live in a communal home if they wish.

         The new system will have a welfare system within it much like todays wester countries do. But it will not be centered around welfare.

         Here in New Zealand I could be un employed and maintain a basic standard of living and get healthcare as needed. This will not change.

         Yes, every selection of one is a rejection of many. This is the norm in todays world and it works. 20 turn up for a job interview and only one gets it. This is fine.

         We MUST reward people for their efforts. Ths is the only reason a money system has got us this far.

         To be honest the moeny system has done us well. Look around at the cities the money system has built for us.

         So the idea is to simple replicate the money system but without the limitations of money.

         World hunger and lack of healthcare in those same areas are a direct result of the failure of moeny. We could help them but why would we? Theres no profits to be made.

         Meritocracy values those that have qualifications, but if you were to get 10,000 people and go and teach poor people how to farm and fashion machinery then you would get nothing for it under the system.

         In my system, they would be rewarded with a level up and when they return home, they will have a new house waiting for them.

         I am not convinced my system has been named yet…..

         Reply to Tommy

Hi everyone,

If the will were there we could find the means, but the will isn’t there. So first we have to create the means to bring about the necessary changes in mentality.
***
Check out Activism in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activism.

Activism consists of intentional action to bring about social, political, economic, or environmental change. This action is in support of, or opposition to, one side of an often controversial argument.

The word “activism” is used synonymously with protest or dissent, but activism can take a wide range of forms from writing letters to newspapers or politicians, political campaigning, economic activism such as boycotts or preferentially patronizing businesses, rallies, street marches, strikes, both sit-ins and hunger strikes, or even guerrilla tactics.

Some activists try to persuade people to change their behavior directly, rather than persuade governments to change laws. The cooperative movement seeks to build new institutions which conform to cooperative principles, and generally does not lobby or protest politically.

Take your pick.

Cheers,

Bob
***

1. Tommy posted the following on December 11, 2010 at 4:40 pm.

   Well put.

   Reply to Tommy

That sounds like my idea about how is changes gradually in my reply to you.

Eventually people will defect and want to join the new world cos it will be better than the life they have.

Come to think of it, you could even impliment this new Level based economy within the money system. You could maybe start off by having a bunch of services like car repairs and things that are free to other members of the system. (but only if they are a high enough level to have earned those repairs)

the guy that fixed the cars for free already owned a garage and still uses money but when he wants a house built, he goes to a builder that is part of the system and askes for one to be built. In the early system he might need to buy the materieals normally but the labour is free if the mechanic has earned a high enough level by fixing cars.

So now the builder has leveled up and goes to a shop that has signed up to the system to get a pie.

The pie shop owner still deals with normal customers (who are now courious why some people arnt getting charged for the pies and want to know more)

So the customer who owns a gym decide to take a pamphlet explaining the system and how it works and decided to have his gym join the system.

The original person that had the car fixed now wants to go to the gym………

Problem here is that everything is free to everyone. Why become a doctor and study for 8 years?

Thats why the level system is needed.

The original person that got the car fixed gets denied and cannot enter the gym as the swipe card they have indicated they are not a high enough level to enter. (this is a very exclusive gym)

So they decide to go back to school and learn something to rank up there level…….

Eventually is catches on and soon you can open a restaurant that ONLY accepts people in the system and does not use money at all.

This restaurants owner gets his level ranked up alot cos he has lots of people swiping ID cards with him and now he has access to a bigger and better life.

So the system would be harder to impliment this way than if the governments were to do what I said in my last post to you but in reality, we actually dont need the goverment to be involved at all.

Not at first anyways, like when we are dealing with small goods. Eventually this system will get their attention.

I think that starting out this way will be very hard though and there are issues like, The guy that owns the restaurant will be buying the food from a supplier that expects money for it.

He cant feed people for a year in he hopes that he might get a house sometime in the future…..

He might be able to have a sort of thing where he wants to give say 10% of his normal profits while still using money and be happy to see a small drop in money profits just to give things a try but naaa

I think this might be a bit too massy to start the ststem within this system. The original idea is prolly better.

1. Robert Howes posted the following on December 11, 2010 at 5:57 pm.

   Tommy,

   Your second system is like the way I plan to get started. I think you need to start small and build it up until it merits some attention from governments.
   ***
   You and I are in competition to show which system works best. Better get a move on.

   Cheers,

   Bob
   ***

   Reply to Robert Howes
   1. Tommy posted the following on December 12, 2010 at 2:25 am.

      Yeah you better…..

      Reply to Tommy
2. kt posted the following on December 11, 2010 at 8:30 pm.

   Haven’t posted on this thread in ages, but wanted to comment on Tommy’s “pay as lifestyle” idea.

   I have only been following in the most cursory manner, and may have missed it, but by whose authority are these “lifestyle perks” allocated? Who decides which kinds of work deserve which kind of perks? Where does natural talent come into play in the perk allocation scheme? Is the perk allocation authority an elected position?

   Take two people working at the same job, one a determined and persistent plugger and the other a naturally gifted individual who makes every task look effortless. If the talented worker finishes a task before noon, and takes off for the beach, while the plugger toils deep into the night, who gets the perks? The guy who finishes in half the time? Or the guy who puts in 14 hours? Do you come up with some sort of talent handicap, like in golf, to level the playing field?

   This is barely scratching the surface of the problems I see with a “lifestyle pay” system. The central flaw is the deeply ingrained notion that every person must prove their worth to someone who doles out the goodies. In order to have any leisure, health care, etc, you must prove that you deserve it. This is admittedly a hard mind set to break, but when it comes right down to it, any system of rewards, be it money, or “lifestyle perks” contains the implicit requirement for some sort of authority to draw up the reward rules and define which activities, talents, etc are deserving of perks. In short, it would be an unworkable mess.

   As I see it, the primary problem with any money-based system is interest. It is an amazingly efficient mechanism for taking money from the have nots and giving it to the haves. When you buy something on credit, say a car or a house, you are selling a part of your life to someone who already has more than they need. If they needed the cash, they wouldn’t be loaning it out. So not only do they not need the money, but they sit back, producing absolutely nothing, and watch as all the have-not suckers throw more money on their pile. Pretty good scam if you’re the one doing the loaning…

   Converting to a moneyless society is a multi-generational project, requiring not only the redefinition of work, but the notion that we are essentially undeserving of comfort until we have proven to some arbitrary authority that we deserve that vacation, that nice car, that hip surgery, etc… In the meantime, it seems a much more doable task to gradually phase out all forms of unearned income, like interest, stocks, bonds etc, either through draconian taxation, or forming break-even lending institutions as a counterweight to deliberately deceitful practices of credit card companies, banks, insurance companies and credit rating agencies.

   Abolishing unearned income would go a long way towards achieving a more equitable society. The obscenely rich could no longer make money doing nothing and would be forced to seek out actual productive ways to spend their cash. As more and more of these cash mountains got injected into the economy, things would gradually begin to settle to a more natural level of resource distribution.

   Reply to kt
   1. Robert Howes posted the following on December 11, 2010 at 10:34 pm.

      Hi KT and everyone,

      I didn’t want to dash Tommy’s hopes. We would find out soon enough if it had merit. Same with my own plans, but it is useful to me to take my ideas to the various forums to see if anyone can find any serious flaws.
      ***
      We (us few guys) cannot abolish anything for the rest of the world. What we can do is start something that if we get it right it will just grow and grow. If we get it wrong it might grow a little then wither and die.

      Cheers,

      Bob
      ***

      Reply to Robert Howes
      1. Tommy posted the following on December 12, 2010 at 3:09 am.

         Can you explain you system to me BOB?

         Like how things generally work and how governements work.

         Is it democratic or what?

         Paint a picture for me so I under stand.

         Yes, I will constructivly point out the flaws…..

         Reply to Tommy
   2. Tommy posted the following on December 12, 2010 at 3:06 am.

      KT,

      The Authority of these perks or lifestyle options you recieve upon level up are granted by the government.

      The government MUST follow a sort of a constitution style legislation that defines how ALL decisions are made. For example what is valued and what is not and by how much.

      This will constantly need updating and to have be done in a sterile debating chamber style meetings.

      The will of the people will be monitored and constantly surveyed so that the legislation is strongly focused on the wants and needs of the people.

      If you have earned the right to have influence during these meetings and you manage to satisfy the people then you will be able to continue to level up.

      You would need to be elected, Governements will still be elected. Democracy is still the lesser of the evils… and will be maintained.

      But unlike todays democracy, you can only be elected if you have above a certain level. You must earn the right to get power and NOT just smile, kiss babies and lie your way to the top.

      If you fail to deliver on your promises once elected, you will face the possibility of being demoted to a lower level. Currently you simple get bad press when you dont deliver what you promised. In the new system you will suffer personally.

      This will mean governments will be very much accountable for their actions.

      Bush would have been demoted to level -237 and never be heard of again…..

      Now,
      The two people working at the same job……

      this will be handled much like it is today. If you can finish in half the time then you have done better. You could go to the beach and enjoy your free time. Once the other guy finished his job he can go to the beach too.

      They would both be recognised for completing the same amount of work. But when the boss wants to promote someone he will choose the better man. Just like today.

      Understand KT that this system is geared to getting us out into space and colonising the galaxy ASAP. You dont get rewarded for effort, you get rewarded for results. Just like todays world.

      Its important to see that this is NOT a perfect system. People will still rape and murder.

      This system is such that it will take humanity forward and let people enjoy the same sort of life we do today. If you do well you level up and life gets better.

      You could work hard and retire at 45 if you do good enough. As you age and do nothing, you will slowly demote (you retirement saving will run out)

      This system simply mimics todays world and does it without money and without the limitations of money and the corruption and the wars for profit.

      You say you are barely scratching the surface with the problems, Please explain every problem you can think of and list them. I have thought of many and they all have quite easy solutions. I welcome you to help me destroy the idea. If it hold then its great.

      Yes your right about the interest thing. But thats just the beggining of money troubles. There are wars that are simply for profit and arms deals and wars to control matkets and things. There is everything from a cop taking a bribe to the fact that world hunger could be ended VERY easy but because there is no PROFIT to be made from it, nobody wants to spend on it. Nobody wants to blow billions on space exploration simply because there no profit to be made.

      We should be getting of this planet and building a fully sustainable space station with 100,000 people on it as a life raft incase something happens like a meteorite impact or something……

      I did a post about how this system would begin a little frther up if you havent already seen it. It would require that it starts out small and once the world economy collapses like it enevitably will, governments will flock to the new system as it will have proven itself on the small scale.
      Each country involved must ‘gift’ landmass and start up resources to get the motor running so to speak.

      If they were backed into a corner due to economic collapse thn it should happen faster than you think.

      Keep the posts coming KT….Talk to your friends about it. it has to go viral

      Reply to Tommy
      1. chris posted the following on July 2, 2011 at 9:46 pm.

         it s funny, if we just eliminated banking, insurance, and corrected government eliminated all taxation other than impost and expost and then taxed by elimintaion inheritance to eliminate the monied dynasties. we should have the average man retire at the age of 35, wouldn t even need a revolution and few problems would be incurred

         Reply to chris
   3. chris posted the following on July 2, 2011 at 9:38 pm.

      kt is somewhaat on the mark, further if the inheritance rights were abolished to eliminate the monied dynasties that would go a long way to justice. equality is something that should not be achieved as to reward those who purposfully work against the common good is self destroying. in reality, insurance and banking should just plain and simple not exists

      Reply to chris

Im hearing some realy frightens things on here , sought of stuff proposed that would be more suitable under Stalin.
I am a waste collecter and am frontline 5 days a week clearing the shit you lot produce , yes i would work freely [hopefully not as hard] in a moneyfree world , however i would not appreciate any lack of “right of a access” to goods, service, or access to decision making proccesess because my job despcription will fall below status of someone elses.
why do i have to earn my rights? My rights should be givin to me at birth. Who has the right to tell me I have no equal rights?
Stuff you are proposing is worse stuff than be found in brave new world.
We should be given freedom to be free . you are advocating a minority who can dictate to the majority who is to be more equal than others.
There is a lot of unrealised and closet facists amongst you so called socialist.
For a free world of free access and equality, without hier-achy without dictatorship [of a minority or a majority] abolish money strike2012

1. Sixpm posted the following on December 14, 2010 at 6:26 am.

   Well said Nick, lots of people still needs to wake up from the brain washing and indoctrination of class or creed, and yes we are all born equal. No one has any more right than another, I don’t mind and I don’t care if people decide to waste their live away not contributing, it is entirely their choice, I believe there are enough people WILL work for the collective benefit.

   Reply to Sixpm
   1. Tommy posted the following on December 14, 2010 at 7:23 am.

      SIXPM,

      Read the post to Nick regarding rights.

      If people do nothing and do not contribute than the system will collapse.
      Trust me, you might be the kind that will work for nothing but most arnt.
      like I say, 80% of people are not happy with their jobs and they are only there cos they HAVE to be.

      Cos they want to feed their kids and things.

      If people were happy to go to work like you say then how come our bosses pay us instead of us pay them to let us go there???

      Think about it man, its pure nonesense.

      To illustrate this, think of a workers union strike in todays world. People strike cos they want more money for working.
      if they got nothing for working that they didnt get for free then trust me they WOULD NOT WORK.

      This has been done before in Russia I think and no its fall apart cos of exactly what I am saying to you now.

      Reply to Tommy
2. Tommy posted the following on December 14, 2010 at 7:16 am.

   Nick,

   None of the above is Stalinist at all.

   So what you are saying is that you wish to be able to drive Ferrari because you are a bin collector?

   Should everyone drive one?

   The equality you are talking about would mean it is pointless to try to climb the ladder Nick. Why would you work late nights for that promotion if your lifestyle was not going to increase?

   You might, but almost ALL simply will not.

   You say,

   “however i would not appreciate any lack of “right of a access” to goods, service, or access to decision making proccesess because my job despcription will fall below status of someone elses.”

   Right now, as a bin collector, you are restricted from owning a Ferrari and you are restricted from owning a private jet.

   So am I.

   We cannot ALL fly around in private jets holidaying in Aspen.

   But those of us that wish to put in the effort and better ourselves, SHOULD have the right to do just that.

   The system should be such that it gives a level 1 the chance to rise through the ranks and own his first jet.
   The system could not possibly make jets for everyone and turn us all into sultans with 5 palaces each.
   The system SHOULD NOT restrict you from having a palace if you have earned it.
   …….My system complies with these requirements….

   You also say,
   “why do i have to earn my rights? My rights should be givin to me at birth. Who has the right to tell me I have no equal rights?”

   You DO have equal rights. You (and everyone else) will have the right to level up and unlock lifestyle.
   The whole point of my system is that we are all equal. Treated the same.

   We all have the access to free education and health care from birth.
   We all have the right to eat at a category 5 fine dining restaurant, providing we have earned it by proving useful to Society.

   You say,

   ” We should be given freedom to be free ”

   You are free to climb the ladder that has been provided for you via the level based system.

   What is actually taking place here Nick is your failure to either grasp the concept fully or my failure to deliver that concept to you.

   The idea is solid Nick.

   It promotes freedom and equality to all that are born. It allows you to reach the top through your own efforts alone and not through corruption as ALL is regulated and debated about when the system is designed. These rules that are designed by the few are only made to further mankind and increase quality of life for all as there can be no corruption as there is no point. Theres no money! People could try to help each other up the ladder but thats fine, because the ONLY way to climb is to be able to SHOW that you have helped humanity in some way.

   Finally, you said,

   “For a free world of free access and equality, without hier-achy without dictatorship”

   Nick, Everything in my new world is free. Anyone has the ability to gain access to all that is offers. Nothing is wrong with hier-achey, so long as everyone has the chance to climb the pyramid. And we are NOT talking about dictatorship. My system is DEMOCRATIC!!!

   Its just that my systems democracy is better. Those that are higher level and have been valuable to humanity, will have a more weighted vote and in effect have more say on things.

   Caution: Your limited perception of what you are able to achieve in this world made you the bin man you are today.
   I have had similar crap jobs and there was a point where decided I am going to get off my butt and do something with my life.
   Failure to make these same realizations, and the continued path of expecting something for nothing Nick,
   will keep you a bin man.

   If you decide to put in the effort, you WILL get the reward. This idea has built our cities and our western world.
   My idea carries on that theme but just simply does it without greed of money and corruption and without the limitations of money.

   Adjust your view man….

   Reply to Tommy
   1. chris posted the following on July 2, 2011 at 9:55 pm.

      do you really think that the people in charge are not going to up level their friends just as we see today. what will change the humanity and make them devine?

      Reply to chris

Are you ideologues mad?! It sounds good to say everyone is born equal, but we all know that is not the case. Your damn right you have to earn your rights. Thats the system we live in, that is just how our society functions. You cant sit here and think you just deserve certain things because if that were the case there would be no social injustices and atrocities. We all know that they exist, therefore you see first hand that certain groups are not born with rights. Furthermore, to answer your question the system that tells you that your rights are not equal run everything. It is about power, they tell you that you have no rights because they are in charge. You are under somebody else’s thumb 24/7. There is no such thing as absolute freedom in the world we live in. We are born and raised to listen to somebody else. The only answer for absolute freedom is anarchy, then if we had anarchy would you really feel safe?

1. Danny Chau posted the following on December 14, 2010 at 12:16 pm.

   Life is a game, money is an idea, everything that we are is all held in consciousness. So to make changes we first need to have it held in our mind and in thought, then it will create the very reality as we visualise it in our mind.

   If you disagree with the above statement is fine by me, as you probably too far removed from the truth and fact that we are all beings with powerful potential, look around our world today, it’s all created first with our thought, an idea.

   Of course, it is the controllers interest to keep us all to underestimate our birth right, which is the power of our mind, so most now taken all that they have been indoctrinated to become their FACT and dare not to challenge or to make changes.

   If you still think in that it is not possible to change our present world, then you shouldn’t even be here discussing, as it is all going nowhere according to your preconditioning.

   We must jump out of our present mindset, to visualise and dare to embrace paradigm shifts and changes, as anything less than is just not good enough.

   Reply to Danny Chau
   1. TOMMY posted the following on December 15, 2010 at 1:23 am.

      Danny speaks the truth!! Took me ages to figure that stuff out. Now why has it not been taught in our schools????

      Oh thats right, we are just cattle in someones farm…..so easy to forget that sometimes.

      Reply to TOMMY
   2. chris posted the following on July 2, 2011 at 10:03 pm.

      there are a large number of cat 5 intellectuals, these people cannot effectively live by themselves, cat 4 is only slightly better. till you get to cat 3 is considered slightly able to fend for themselves. these cat 4 and 5 cannot fundtion in a job as complicated as trash collection. they are not doctors because of deprivation of education. they could spend 40 years in a tutored enviornment and still have dificulty reading the cat in the hat. fact of the matter is we are totally not equal. we do have grave injustices and those things need addressing. we do have the monied interset producing nothing and interfering with our progress. we have the right and the constitution which can effect the great change that need be done. If the tools available are ignored than the only thing that can be expected is vast failure

      Reply to chris
2. TOMMY posted the following on December 15, 2010 at 1:21 am.

   Nice Justin, Nick needs a nice warm glass of reality. We can design a society that rewards effort. Nothing wrong with that.

   Nick, I will not continue to offer you my time as I can see it is going nowhere. Each post you make just means I have to explain things to you that I shouldn’t need to. I explained things in common sense but it does not work. I’m breaking up with you…..

   Justin, the aim is to minimise the division between the classes and there chances for the future at birth.

   Black kids in the projects have less chance today that white kids in the suburbs. This is largely due to money.
   In my system, we would seek to replicate todays world in every single way, but without the limitations money(or lack of) brings.

   Nick is a dreamer. While not always a bad thing, we must stay rooted in reality.

   To think that a bin man should be able to live an equal life to a neurosurgeon who cuts into peoples brains for a living and has studied to get there for around 9 years is complete madness. For a bin man to own a Ferrari just for slinging trash into a truck is total nonsense.

   Your right, there is no absolute freedom. This is because for me to have the RIGHT to kill you then it would mean you have not got the RIGHT to live.

   For nick to expect total freedom is a fantasy. We need leaders. we need law makers and cops.
   But we need them to be unable to take a bribe. We need them to be truely working for humanities benefit.
   The only way to do this is to let them be greedy and let hem do it for them selves and have them climb the level based system.
   This way the are working as hard as they can to level up but can only do so by serving humanity.

   Remember, in my system, you start at level one. Nobody can level you up but yourself. There are no rich parents. Each must earn the right to become a leader and run for office.

   If you havent already, go back and look for Posts by TOMMY to find out about all thislevel stuff im talking about….

   Bye Nick…..

   Reply to TOMMY
   1. chris posted the following on July 2, 2011 at 8:32 pm.

      you mention black in the hood. they make the choice to practice basketball all evening long rathar than study. books have been available for years. they make their decisions. They decide to use and sell drugs. NObody imposes that on them. There man be some injustices with insurance which affects all of us and some other government involvment in our lives. but a moneyless society will not change their decisions in life or activites. It may bring others down to their level but it will not elevate those whom have no self respect. Plenty black brought up in the hood as you say didn t waste their time with the status quo in their hood. The took the time to improve themselves and did something positive in their lives.

      Reply to chris

Here is a link to a message which may blow your minds, if you have not come across this type of information before, it is all to do with our world changes:

http://www.galacticmessages.com/blog/2010/12/galactic-federation-update-for-14-december-2010-by-sheldan-nidle/

There are many realities, this is certainly one of them.

1. TOMMY posted the following on December 15, 2010 at 1:42 am.

   “The first requirement was a massive, ground-up recasting of your banking system, designed to eliminate debt and restructure wealth distribution, leading to the ‘leveling of the playing-field’ for all.”

   Recasting of the banking systems? Eliminate debt?

   LEVELING?

   Are the reading my mind? Did they take my idea about levels? or did they feed the idea to me?

   AM I THE CHOSEN ONE!!????

   HAHAHAHAHAH

   Reply to TOMMY

Give it to him straight….

I think a vote is called for. I vote for me.

Cheers,

Bob
***

Tommy you have NOT addressed these issue. [despite telling me you have.]
Issue 1. Your whole thesis is based on you observations of workers working in a society based on inequality and expliotation [communist russia included]
Is it not probable, considering how re-actionary human behaviour is, that the nature and behaviour of workers will be completely different in an equalitarian society?
Issue 2. The quanity and quality of work will vary from individual to individual depending on their genetic make up. A merit system based on quanity and quailty of work will therefore be geneticly discriminitive.

I have noticed you have a thing about the need to work hard, but you is a boss aint you?

You is also very prejudice against manual workers and your merit system seem to declare that occupations that YOU favour will not get as much merit as those that YOU dont favour.
you should title this blog Beyond an Elitists Dream or A Socialist Nightmare

1. TOMMY posted the following on December 18, 2010 at 4:23 am.

   IT IS NOT BASED ON INEQUALITY NICK.

   How do I get that into you think head.
   Is is based on equality. Everything I have said promotes equality.

   Everyone is born equal. EVERYONE IS BORN EQUAL! Do you understand that? Everyone has the same opportunity to level up DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?

   DO….YOU….UNDERSTAND….THAT?

   ITS BUILT AROUND EQUAL!

   the very foundation of it promotes equality!

   There, I have answered you. Stop telling me its unequal. It has now been explained to you.

   There is NO exploitation at all!

   No body is being exploited. Each has access to free education and each is free to reach whatever goal they want in life and maintain that lifestyle.

   What do you not understand nick (no capital n this time…)

   Genetically discriminative?

   Are you telling me the intellegent people of this world should be held back with the dum dums?

   That the dum dums should be sent to law school? That they should work in out court systems?

   Should I expect my friend who has cerebral palsy to play Xbox equal or bettter than me?

   ARE YOU ACTUALLY SAYING WE SHOULD NOT REWARD EFFORT IN SOCIETY?

   If one employee achieves more than another and there is only on promotion available, You think that we should give them half the position each?

   You have a fools mind sir.

   If I can run faster and jump higher then I should be the one to go to the Olympics and bask in the glory of winning because I achieved that.

   What you are suggesting would ruin the path of natural selection.

   I am NOT prejudice again manual labourers at all. Im NOT a bass at all. I dont even have a job!
   I just finished 3 years of flight training and will be moving to australia on Christmas day.

   I have a retail background selling xbox games and appliances and furniture.

   I have worked in bars and I have been a forklift driver.

   I realised that none of those things will earn me the lifestyle I want. So I decided to better my self and get an education.
   Now that I have one, I seek to go and use it.
   I sek to find the rewards for my efforts.

   The difference between me and my past self (and you) is that I have now realized that everyone who is of average intelligence and able bodied, can invest time into themselves and better them selves and dream of a better life and make that dream come true.

   You dont have to be a bin man aye.

   You choose to be.

   I choose to have menial jobs once too. It took my whole life to fall apart for me to wake up.

   I just hit the reset button.

   Student loans are available to you. What kept me in my place was fear of change and fear of rolling my sleeves up and doing a bit of hard study.

   You may identify with that. Most do.

   Having got through what I got through, 5 years of hard times didnt seem so bad. Having lost everything, I was FREE.

   I was no longer restricted by my limitations of thought.

   I just though, what would be the coolest job in the world……..Astronaught!!

   Well that a bit unrealistic for me. Im not smart enough and have asthma and New Zealand has no space program.

   So I decided the next best thing was an Airline pilot.

   That afternoon I looked up flight schools and student loans.

   Send some emails and shiBAM!!

   I stopped at NOTHING knowing I was building a better life.

   Now I am a qualified commercial pilot.

   Just need a job.

   But I cant get a job cos I have low flight time. I dont moan about it complain that things should be equal and if he can fly a jumbo the I want one too. Like you seem to think it should work.

   I accept that he has done lots to get where he is. I know that I have to do lots too. and thats ok.

   HE IS BEING REWARDED FOR HIS EFFORTS.

   I can get rewarded for mine and YOU can get rewarded for YOURS!

   Get off your arse and better yourself and when you see the rewards flowing you will understand that all who are not disabled have the chance to earn a better life.

   And when you say we should not discriminate on genetics………

   Are you suggesting that serial killer/rapist should not be discriminated upon due to the fact that he just cant help it? Should we just set them all free?

   Some guys are just born with a screw loose or have agressive tendancies. Should we just give them a hug instead of hard time?

   Do you now understand that the system of effort = reward is fine and that the real problem is money and NOT a reward based society.

   Look at the western world. We are FAR more advanced than others. we have a reward based society. Thats why people built the cities, that why we are successful. That why people have been getting up every monday morning.

   I tire of you nick.

   Why is it that I can make a million valid thoughts but you fail to acnowldge any of them.

   Dude, if you quite your job tomorrow and go on some kind of government benefit, then apply to some school for something you think would be a cool job, then relentlessly chase that dream, you too will make it. You too will grow and you too will earn a better life.

   It not as hard as it seems. I have my licence now, it feels like it came for free cos its really my past self that put in all the effort. Not me.

   But I get all the rewards!!

   Try to open your mind a bit man,

   Tell me what you dream job would be. and dont answer all that other stuff i asked, i don’t really care what you have to say on the matter anymore.

   I have already found out that your views are nonsense and that you dont have the ability to change them even when you are shown how to.

   Just tell me what is your dream lifestyle or career or whatever.

   And DON’T say bin collector. You would be just lying to yourself.

   Answer me seriously. Theres no limit. What is your dream job?

   Go.

   Reply to TOMMY

Tommy,

I still prefer my own plan.

Cheers,

Bob
***

Only those that want eletism will follow Tommy . Bob , just want to point out that, with material security , ie , when we are not scared of starving or loosing our shelter, when we are confident some thing/one is going to look after us in our old age. Then our birth rates go down. Its is only in poor countrys that birth rates are high , in the developt countries , birthrates are hardly sustainable. The eradication of money and its resulting openess and equality of access of goods will drive the birthrate down rather than up.

1. Robert Howes posted the following on December 19, 2010 at 12:54 am.

   Hi Nick,

   I wish I were so confident, but I can see that one reason birthrates are down in developed countries is the cost of raising children. Children in third world countries are seen as assets. In developed countries as liabilities. In a moneyless economy they might be seen either way or in a neutral way, but we won’t know until we are into a moneyless economy. And that won’t be any time soon as far as I or anyone can see.
   ***
   Money cannot be eradicated or scrapped. Money is an important part of the way we do business. We need to change the way we do business first so that we no longer need money. That is a step by step change and we haven’t yet taken the first step. Most of us don’t know what that first step will comprise of. I have my theory, you have yours. We could both be wrong or part right. Who knows. We just got to keep plugging away. To do nothing, to play dead, certainly isn’t the answer. So roll up your sleeves Nick, and Tommy too. Keep your options open though.

   Cheers,

   Bob
   ***

   Reply to Robert Howes

Hello there! This is my first comment here so I just wanted to give a quick shout out and tell you I truly enjoy reading through your blog posts. Can you suggest any other blogs/websites/forums that cover the same subjects? Thanks!

1. nick posted the following on February 3, 2011 at 5:30 am.

   One of the problems newcomers of socialism have is understanding the basic of socialism, which is according to Marx] the appropriation of the means of production by the workers .
   I think it is wise to see socialism and its perspective of class struggle, in a wider, more historical struggle for equality. The first UK reference to this came in the 1600s with a movement called the Diggers who believed that it wasn’t right to own the land and that we should all care for the common good.
   Now socialism and equality gotta share the titles of most misrepresented and misunderstood concepts of the 20 +221 century
   Socialism is the fruitation of the struggle of the working class against the capitalist class and comes about as the means of production are democratically controlled by the people .
   Equality is the belief that we all have equal share and say of the world and its resources.
   But both come from the same belief , that we all have an equal right and responsibility to the earth and its resources and that we should agree to share these resources in the most free and equal way
   As I have mentioned there is pre socialist perspective and there is also post socialism perspective which include , situationism , and more newer primitism, . [Our language, subjugated on us by economic and political forces loves make isms]. And its isms that separate us. Or ists.
   One movement that includes all that site called World in Common.
   And one shared project on the go is Global Strike 2012
   Good Luck
   nick

   Reply to nick

Einstein once said “Problems cannot be solved with the same mindset that creates it”, yet many people is still talking of all kinds of ‘ism’ which we all have been indoctrinated since birth, so we must access and create our world from a different mindset and view point.

We are more than human and no less than divinity, everything in our world IS intrinsically linked as it is all a creation by us, as we are human when we not aware of the fact that we are all have gods creative power, that is the thought power.

Does it ever occurs to you how our world was created? Look around you, our civilization is not the work of anyone else, it is a creation of humanity. So this fact alone is the very evidence that we too possess the same creative power that god has.

Life is never about money, wealth, power, class or creed. It is about the understanding of our spirituality, wisdom and we are beings of love and light, we are the life force behind ‘humanity’ and we are more than the body, we are the intellect, the will and we are the soul that give ‘life’ to the physical body we all temporarily experiencing.

Until we see humanity as ONE and to develop our love unconditionally, it is hard to see how our ‘small and limited egocentric mindset’ are wiling to share the world’s abundance.

What we witness in our ‘external’ world are but the reflection within our collective consciousness. Such as the existence of the controlling elites, the dark cabals is the very fact that there is a portion in each and everyone of our human nature which are ‘selfish’ and ‘self serving’ at the core of our being.

Unless we rise above this understanding of our weakness and willing to rise above this to reunite with our spirituality, that we are of a much higher nature. We simply cannot release ourselves from the gripe of ignorance, and the greed which are the very property of human nature. How then can we to create a world for all to share?

Love is our core spiritual essence, I urge you all to begin to manifest the love of your being, the love that is lodge deep within your being, your soul, you will then hear what I’m saying and referring to here.

Change is happening, all you have to do is to look around you, the evidence is clear that more and more people are becoming awake and aware of their true nature of being that we are one and the same, as we all know deep down it is completely possible for us all to have a world that is good for all of humanity.

Love, peace and respect to you all.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Equitism/ is a new group that needs more members.

Cheers,

Bob
***

1. nazeer posted the following on February 11, 2011 at 5:53 am.

   i would love to join

   Reply to nazeer

We know that the money is free for the Fed. It is a private bank and only it can print money without any restrictions, at anytime and by any amount. Since the money is free for the Fed, it should be free for everybody. We should not have to pay it back; there should not therefore be any debt or deficit. Thus the Fed has artificially created the taxation, periodic payment, interest rate etc. At the core of capitalism then we really have a free or moneyless economy now.

Let us examine the status of money today. We are all dealing with electronic money these days. Our employment checks are deposited electronically by our employers in our banks. We buy things using our credit cards. We pay the bills using our computers. Very soon we will authorize our credit card companies to directly deduct their money from our accounts automatically. Thus the money is just a number in some database on some computers. That number goes up and down and controls our life styles. Now we ask do we need that number to control us.

Instead of trusting that number on a computer why not we all trust ourselves and work for free? We go to our work places and work just like we are doing it now. The only difference is that we do not get paid. The computer number changes to 40 hours. Government tracks this number. We all become slaves for the society, for the people, for the government, and finally for the god for 40 hours per week every week. In return we get everything free. We go to a store and buy everything we want for free. If we want to live in a big house, we hire a contractor; he builds it for us and for free. If we want to travel; we book the flight, and travel free, stay in a hotel free. Everything will be free because everybody is working free. People will still be forced to work otherwise there will be no food or shelter.

Buddha and Gandhi have established a method of austerity and the self control of mind, body, and soul to reduce the need for money. This is a solution at the individual level. Milton Friedman has proposed the elimination of the central bank. President Jefferson proposed printing money by the government. Both Friedman and Jefferson essentially said the same thing; and their approach gives a global solution to our poverty. But our approach of moneyless economy is more profound and provides cleaner solution to all our problems.

This moneyless economy will eliminate environmental pollution and the wars. It will eventually kill the pollution of our souls by removing greed, corruption, violence, cheating, and lying. This will eliminate poverty from the world permanently. The moneyless economy will allow us to create products that we really need and nothing, like cigarettes, can be imposed on us by the investors. In fact the whole financial system including the central banks will not be required any more. We will have more people working for real benefits of the society.

For comments please write to subhendu.das@excite.com

1. nick9tap posted the following on July 2, 2011 at 12:19 am.

   Why would we need to work for 40 hours a week in a moneyfree world. It would be by definition a non commodity market, we would not have to produce so much consumer rubbish. We could implement all sorts of labour saving devices because people no longer fear unemployment. all people will have access to production . we would probally need to work on average 16 hours a week. check out the Zeitgeist , you might find them a bit inspiring.
   As for credit cards and governments what the hell will we need them for? This will be a free world !

   Reply to nick9tap
   1. Robert Howes posted the following on July 2, 2011 at 1:47 am.

      Nick,

      I can agree with you on this, I think Subendu is getting himself in a twist. We need to get back to basics. The world is in a mess and most people don’t give a damn. Those of us that do are a tiny number and just as much driven by selfish motives. Nothing wrong with selfish motives as long as each of us accepts everyone else’s needs are as great as their own. Therefore we each have to do what we can to help everyone so that we are helping ourselves at the same time. Socialism in the head first, on the ground later. We need to build the movement by whatever means in order to get the socialism into the heads of everyone whether it takes 100 years or not. Good luck with the strike.

      Cheers,

      Bob
      ***

      Reply to Robert Howes
      1. chris posted the following on July 2, 2011 at 12:18 pm.

         buy from the small entrepenure and self employed and pay cash, they won t pay tax on that that willdeplete corporate government and corporate america s bite on humanity, in time it will colaspe leaving a vacuum in which some form of change can take place

         Reply to chris
   2. Subhendu Das posted the following on July 2, 2011 at 10:42 am.

      Nick9tap,

      I think I agree with you. But here are my comments on your questions.

      Suppose somehow we implement the moneyless economy tomorrow at midnight. What will happen then on the following morning? If we do not go to work and do our things, the world will collapse. We will need a transition period in which things will slowly change to a steady normal and eventually to an evolutionary state.

      During this transition we still have to work for 40 hours. How do we ensure that we are all working for 40 hours? Government or our corporations will have to track our activities. During this transition period our mindset will not immediately change to the final mindset of moneyless being. So we will misbehave, become corrupt, destroy everything. To maintain an orderly state we have to still work for 40 hours for quite a long time, until the transition period ends, may be for more than 10 years.

      How do we track these 40 hours? We track our salary on computers now, you know that probably. I have discussed that idea somewhere else in this page site. This 40 hour will replace that salary number on the computer.

      When we go and buy things we use our credit cards now. During this transition period we will have this 40 hours number on this credit card to prove that we have worked. We cannot get things from the society for free without working for free to produce these things.

      As the society evolves, these hours, cards, numbers will change. We will completely trust ourselves, just the way we trust our money now. At that state of mind we do not have to track ourselves. There will be no need for government. I cannot think if that state of mind can happen for all seven billion people in the world. I am sure even at steady state period, we will invent corruptions and take unfair advantages. So we may, in practice, need some monitoring and control mechanism to run the society properly.

      As far as the ZeitGeist, please select a YouTube site for me that you think I should watch to understand your thought process. I tried, there are many sites, and everything is very long. But I will definitely watch your selections, and provide my comments after I study them.

      I hope I was able to clarify the problems you have raised here.

      Reply to Subhendu Das
      1. Robert Howes posted the following on July 2, 2011 at 11:38 am.

         Subhendu,

         What we have to decide is when to have a transition. I think we must have a transition now, within capitalism, but change to co-ops instead of bosses. After all the workers in the world are working in co-operation with each other and only making good things not war things we will all then understand how a co-operative world works in practice. Until then you are right about many not understanding it and wrecking it.

         Cheers,

         Bob
         ***

         Reply to Robert Howes

finally, someone who talks some sense….But bobs right. How can a thread like this overthrow the elites?

1. Subhendu Das posted the following on June 30, 2011 at 7:36 pm.

   Tommy asked a good question – is this thread enough?
   My idea will be to create a website with the mission to –
   Implement moneyless economy within a target date.
   But also keep this thread and remain active here.

   Reply to Subhendu Das
   1. Robert Howes posted the following on July 1, 2011 at 2:05 am.

      Hi Subhendu and everyone,

      I think the way this will all pan out is that a group or groups will use money in more inventive ways over the next one hundred years to create the conditions (physical and psychological) the world over that are conducive to the change we here clearly already see as necessary. There are already groups advocating the change to a moneyless and stateless economy and I interact with most of them. Google money free or moneyless and see how many you can find and join their forums and engage with them until you can understand better the solution and what is holding up its implementation.

      Cheers,

      Bob
      ***

      Reply to Robert Howes
   2. Danny Chau posted the following on July 1, 2011 at 4:31 am.

      Don’t under estimate our thought and consciousness, as it is the very engine for creation, we did create our present civilization did we not?

      Everything in our modern society do come from ‘thin air’, the causation is the power of our ‘thought’, so the thread we are on is exactly the cause for more mental actions, we are all part of the grass root for the next big movement, and this is to release humanity from the ego-ic selfishness, self centeredness and self serving nature, so that we all work toward a new civilization for the betterment of all of humanity.

      The reason for my believe and the up beat is information is leaking from people who works for these controlling organizations that the differences within these dark cabalist group are splitting and fracturing because of the difference in their opinion. Some no longer wants to commit the crime towards humanity.

      We are linked in more way than most aware, as we all work within a specific frequency and the more people’s awareness is growing the balance will begin to tip, witness by the uprising from all over the world. For those who don’t believe in metaphysics, we only need the square root of half of one percent of the worlds population to become aware and awake, then there is enough momentum to make massive changes for the rest of humanity. This is the calculation by both military scientist and the biologist Rupert Sheldrake, the dark cabals do know their time is up, as their ‘fear’ mongering no longer have any effect for masses of people on this planet.

      I believe the change is imminent, as there are people from all over the world and who are already part of the institutions are already planning and working to make serious changes, we will be able to witness this within our lifetime.

      Reply to Danny Chau
      1. Subhendu Das posted the following on July 1, 2011 at 11:24 am.

         Danny Chau has a philosophical view on the subject. I like and agree with his concepts. So I will expand along his lines. Einstein said – to solve a problem you must come outside the environment of the problem. I say in the same way, the creator is always outside the creation. If you consider the creation as the money based economic system and suffering of the increasingly larger number of people in the lower economic class, then the creator will be the central bank or the Fed. To fix the problem you must seek help outside the creation. Creation cannot change itself, time can change it, but fundamentals cannot change. I have given some examples in some other place in this page.

         We cannot create a moneyless economy. We cannot destroy the central bank. It will require a bigger power, bigger than the central bank. However we must change the environment so that the bigger power evolves and brings the change.

         It will come the way Danny has proposed, by internal splitting of the existing power structure. But it cannot happen in this generation. This split power must take rebirth and become bigger. We may have to wait several generations until it becomes sufficiently bigger to destroy the present creator, the central bank.

         Life is precisely predefined. The birth of Hitler (and consequently freedom of India) was predicted by Nostradamus 500 years before, and also by Bible’s book of revelation (creation of Israel – a reaction of Hitler) some 2000 years back. So moneyless economy (a law of nature) will also happen, but as Robert Howes mentioned, after 100 more years.

         I have not presented a pessimistic view, I am all with you. In fact, I want we take some serious actions. Is anybody out there to run with me?

         Reply to Subhendu Das
   3. nick9tap posted the following on July 1, 2011 at 1:37 pm.

      There is a plan to help the transistion into a moneyfree world. a symbolic 1 day strike starting when the olympics start. world wide strike 2012 you can google it get all info. surprise bob didnt mention.
      Get involved , get the people thinking about it!

      Reply to nick9tap
      1. Subhendu Das posted the following on July 1, 2011 at 10:55 pm.

         There is no need to mention about this strike explicitly. It is already there in this page.

         I think we should all participate in it. It will give a global exposure to the idea of money less economy and its feasibility.

         It is not necessary to strike for the whole day. One hour strike should serve our objective. Make sure that in your company you explain properly about this new economic system.

         To compensate for the lost hour you can work for one extra hour.

         Reply to Subhendu Das

Hello all: It’s been a while since I’ve chimed in. I think this is not the forum for Hitler or Religion, because those topics seem to distract instead of focus on the issues of establishing an environmentally sustainable lifestyle, where the earth’s resources are not wasted or concentrated in the hands of a few select groups of people. How do we change the system? That is the question. We must all become more informed. A good place to start is by reading Web of Debt by Ellen Brown. For more information see this link:
http://www.webofdebt.com/.
——————
Learn about fractional reserve banking from this link:

http://www.rayservers.com/images/ModernMoneyMechanics.pdf
————
Here is a very informative video about central banking and the Federal Reserve.
A must see.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4020719354420953428
—————
Here are some Zeitgeist links for those interested:

Zeitgeist Addendum:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gKX9TWRyfs

Moving Forward:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w

Peter Joseph’s latest radio show:
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/zmglobal/2011/06/29/62911–tzm-host-peter-joseph-guest-john-mcmurtry
—————–
To avoid repeating myself, you can read my comments above if interested. We are in transition already. If we all become informed and expand the conversation, change will accelerate. If we just listen to the nightly news and CSPAN, the system will never change. I know how difficult it is to get people to even consider a different system, but as our numbers increase, and the message gets out from many different sources, acceptance will be more likely. We should not go off on tangents that make us seem like KooKs. The facts do support our cause. We need to become informed, and stay informed. In my humble opinion I think we should stay away from mentioning Hitler, Religion, Jesus etc.

Robert, (Bob) Howes has many good ideas and is taking it to the next level by leading by example.

take care,

Bob (from California)

Hi everyone,

We can use Jolitics to test out ideas as you will see that I have done:

https://jolitics.com/p/post/1340/

Please join Jolitics, it’s free. Put your own proposal. It might not get very many votes but those in favour can be invited to Anthology to debate it further. Then we can agree on further proposals and repeat the process. We need more minds in on this to create more potential solutions. My own proposal has not fared well but three members voted for it. Nick, these are the people. Not all of them, but a cross section certainly. We too are the people. See you in Jolitics…

The first proposal could be “What we need is a moneyless economy”

Cheers,

Bob
***

1. Subhendu Das posted the following on July 3, 2011 at 11:53 am.

   Bob,

   Is this a new site? Creating a new site is a good idea. Here are few suggestions before people move to the new site. (1) We take the wealth we generated here, by accumulating them in a FAQ. (2) We invite all the people from this site to the new site. Particularly those who provided ideas, who demonstrated active participation, during the entire life of this page (3) We keep a link in the new page to acknowledge the history of the evolution.

   The main reason for the move maybe to cleanup this mess that has accumulated in this site. We should also design the new page in such a way that we can reduce accumulation of mess in future.

   However, as I have pointed out the purpose of money less economy is to (a) Demonstrate that this is the best solution to eliminate poverty from the world (b) It is not socialism, you can still maintain luxurious life style (c) Collecting many possible ideas for creating the Big Bang that will make removal of money power feasible.

   We may not have a solution for item (c), but we should propagate items (a) and (b).

   Reply to Subhendu Das

I hear you all.

Great ideas from great minds.

We must remember that equality does not always mean the same life style.

The reason capitalism takes of is cos it allows you to put in effort and make it big. to earn a nice life.

People need an incentive to drag themselves through 10 years of learning to become a neurosurgeon.

These people MUST be rewarded for their efforts.

The system can be such that we are all born equal
(birth defects aside). and we all have the same opportunity to do well and level up.

It simply must be a merit based system.

It has to be.

Today is merit based. I just got my first job as an airline pilot. yesterday was my first day.

I am earning a better life. Thats why i am getting up in the morning.

That side of capitalism works fine but money is not required to achieve this. just lifestyle rewards.

Know that the level up system promotes equality.

it means we start equal. how high we climb is up to us.

Our new friend has some clear logic. I like that the posts are now flowing.

You mentioned going back to gold and silver.

This is still currency.

It is not needed.

what is needed is a way to show the rulers of this money world that the new system is better.

That it promotes infinite growth.

humans just have only one thing to be greedy for, money.

If we open a new system. It can start small. once it grows people can see its better and then migrate to it.

Offer the masses a way to get a good life with no money and they will flock.

Start with a poor nation that has nothing to lose.

In fact, at the moment, greece would be an amazing place to start.

The people are having mass strikes cos they hate the system.

If you were to go there and start recruiting this idea would explode!

let the goverment to as they please.
the people can just make their own leaders….

make their own system.

If they like the idea, they will loan out their buildings as headquarters etc…..

I would like to do something like this.
But i am climbing a mountain of my own already.

If someone set up a stage in one of those protests in greece with a banner “recruiting now” and got on a loud speaker, people could learn the system and leave their email address.

they could be spammed emails and meetings could be made. They could be given incentive to recruit others like in a ponzi or pyramid scheme.

You could call for people to give things that are useful to the cause. not money but things like a compound to work from.

you begin signing up people, citizens of a new age.

the local bakery now advertises that members eat free.

you guys get the idea?

it would just snowball if it got to that point.

what do you think?

1. Subhendu Das posted the following on July 3, 2011 at 7:40 pm.

   Tommy,

   Great ideas, and very encouraging! Congratulations on your first job!

   I will post responses in many small increments, with time delays for possible interactions. I like the iterative approach Bob mentioned. But Tommy, I have to contradict one of your thoughts. Please do not mind. I should do this because it is related to the fundamentals. We must understand this clearly, to firmly root the money less economy. This post is long so read when you have some good time.

   You have said – “The reason capitalism takes of is cos it allows you to put in effort and make it big. to earn a nice life.”

   What I am writing below is high school stuff. Assume that the total material wealth of a nation is equivalent to a pot of gold. That is, this gold represents all the automobiles, airplanes, missiles, roads, bridges etc., or in other words this is the GDP, the gross domestic product. Similarly assume that the total money available is a bag of dollar bills. This bag is the equivalent to the total money in the economy. This bag of money has an one to one relationship with this pot of gold. This bag of money can buy only that pot of gold.

   By the law of conservation (LOC) this pot of gold cannot grow. This law says that the mass and energy cannot be created or destroyed; it can only be transformed from one form to another form. This bag of money cannot grow either, because this is equivalent to that pot of gold and is attached to it by the LOC.

   We all know that the Fed (the central bank of USA) can print another bag of money, out of thin air. It is a private bank and only it can print money without any restrictions, transparency, and accountability to anyone. Money is free for the Fed and it can give it to anyone it chooses. Now these two bags can buy that pot of gold.

   This extra bag doubles the price of the pot of gold causing inflation. If this money is allocated only to the top fifth of the population then their share of the pot of gold will increase, changing the wealth distribution. According to the LOC, since the gold cannot increase, the share of the bottom fifth will then naturally decrease causing transfer of wealth. This transfer of wealth happens not only because the money share decreases for the bottom fifth, the price of gold also increases, and thus reducing their purchasing power.

   According to the LOC there cannot exist a win-win situation. When someone wins, someone else must lose. In every win-win situation, a detailed analysis will always show that there is third party who will be the loser. Thus the LOC says that the transfer of wealth must happen when someone becomes richer.

   You can easily see now that printing money is not the only way to transfer wealth, the profiting and the interest charging, are also ways of transferring wealth. The capitalism is precisely designed to make that transfer happen. Wealth transfer happens only when you make money without contributing to the pot of gold or to the GDP. Thus stock market gain is a way to transfer wealth. In fact the entire financial system is a means to transfer wealth. That is because the financial system can redistribute the quantity of money.

   So we become rich not because of our caliber, but because of the clever design of capitalism by the central bank.

   Reply to Subhendu Das
   1. chris posted the following on July 3, 2011 at 9:58 pm.

      actually what you wrote is quite accurate, and well written. you should archive it for future reference. it is probably quite important. the wealthy have quite a few schemes for removing the wealth from the working class and puting it in their hands. the montivation for change must be for correcting those methods. many people who could have easily been surgeons etc were deprived because of the methods of society blocking upward movement. besides hard currency which helps control the greed of the mighty to a degree, people need to be informed of their right to use promissary notes, (paper curency) to create a flexible system. capitalism and communisum are different words for the same thing. In capitalism one calls a corpoate manager his immediate boss and that boss funds the election which puts the government in place. in communism the boss is the government, it is just more direct, neither do the best for the producer

      Reply to chris
      1. Subhendu Das posted the following on July 3, 2011 at 10:54 pm.

         Chris,

         Fascinating is your way of comparing communism and capitalism. In fact one author, Dr. Larry Bates an economist, banker, and legislator said, in communism capital (money, machines, and men – which is labor) is owned by the party and not by the people. Therefore, communism is same as capitalism. You may not know that the Bolshevik war was financed by capitalism. The purpose was to eliminate the dictators, the Czars or the Kings in Russia.

         One other thing, why do you not like 40 hours? Why do you want to work for 20 hours only? America is proud of its efficient, hard working labor force. In money-less economy, you will see that you will work day and night all the time. That is because you will love your work so much, beyond your imagination. You will be doing what you really want to do.

         I agree that in capitalism you hate working. Because people are forced to work in jobs that they do not like or the environment of exploitation that we do not enjoy. In fact I say the following:

         My boss rapes me 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, in my cubicle. My body is sick, diseased, and I am exhausted. I wait for the weekends to come. The whole America waits for the weekends and probably for the same reason. On Monday I become sad again, I do not feel healed enough. I am worried if I am ready to take it for another week. – You probably know that the heart attack rate is highest on Mondays.

         There was a beautiful American country music song, that brings tears in my eyes, described how sad was her working life.

         Thanks for your appreciation of my previous post on the laws of conservation.

         Reply to Subhendu Das
      2. chris posted the following on July 4, 2011 at 11:50 am.

         it really wouldn t be the 20 vs 40 hour work week situation, if you do the math. currently ther are 40 million productive people carrying the load for 340 million, true all is not done.but allthat is done is done by those few. for the same effect each would haave to work 5 hours a week. now i know ther are competency problems etc. but by math that is the situaion. 40 hours would require standing around the water cooler for 35 hours per week hardly enticing

         Reply to chris
2. Subhendu Das posted the following on July 4, 2011 at 1:19 pm.

   Tommy,

   You have said a very good point: “the local bakery now advertises that members eat free.”
   Let me track that idea to implement a moneyless economy in the neighborhood of the bakery.

   (1) Assume that the employees of the bakery agree to work free for 40 hours and in return they get free food from the bakery. (2) Then the bakery will have to get, say wheat powder for free from his supplier. Let us say that the supplier agrees to accept our deal and gives everything free also. (3) Then the wheat powder supplier will have to go to the manufacturer who makes powder from the raw wheat grains. Let us say this manufacturer also agrees with our deal. (4) The manufacturer will then have to go to the farmer who produces the wheat grain. Let us say that he also agrees to accept our deal of moneyless economy. (5) This farmer requires, water, electricity, and gasoline to run his farm. Let us assume that the farmer uses wind power to get electricity, and a water pump on his land to pull water. But he gets gasoline from the big oil corporation. (6) Now we have the bottleneck. The big oil corporation refuses to accept our deal. So the entire chain of plan from item (1) to (6) fails.

   Oil and electricity are two crucial items for us to survive. Without them nothing will work. Thus we cannot start on a small scale. We must take a country, maybe Greece as you suggested or Libya.

   Reply to Subhendu Das

I don’t think this is true.

Almost all work done today could be completely eliminated in a moneyless society. Businesses are structured specifically for self perpetuation and all jobs geared towards that end would vanish into thin air. Accounting, advertising, sales, human resources, even a lot of R&D, all gone. These skills require effort to learn and it wouldn’t be as simple as saying, OK go do whatever you want.

In a moneyless society, there would be no need for 500 different kinds of cell phones, or 50 different kinds of laundry detergent. The variety of products would experience an extreme contraction because there would be no need to produce anything but the absolute best. And people would come to settle for nothing but the best.

What you would end up with are hundreds of millions if not billions of people with absolutely nothing to do. Imagine what would happen if all the people sitting at their desks dreaming of fishing suddenly got the chance to do so? Every lake in the world would be fished out in a matter of months. Imagine if every closet potter, or furniture maker, or quilter, regardless of talent, suddenly got the chance to pursue their passion? You’d see mountain ranges worth of unwanted crap produced by all the bored people who used to have jobs.

I’ve been thinking about this problem, off and on, for two years and I really don’t see any practical way to eliminate money. The real problem is how it’s distributed, not that it exists. I think all that’s really required to eliminate the gross distortions in wealth distribution, would be to institute one, conceptually simple change: Abolish all forms of interest.

Without interest, money would return to it’s roots, a simple medium of exchange. No one could earn one cent just sitting on their pile of cash and letting it earn interest. If you put money in a bank, that’s how much you can withdraw. If you invest in a company, you get your investment back, but not one cent more. Without the fantasy of unearned millions or billions, money would become much less important as a thing unto itself and would return to being just a convenient mechanism for acquiring the things you want and need.

Abolishing interest also eliminates the need for hard currencies because all money would be backed by actual productivity, rather magical financial schemes, or arbitrary perceptions of value for things such as gold.

1. Subhendu Das posted the following on July 4, 2011 at 1:00 am.

   Hi KT,

   I got confused with your comments.

   You started with “I don’t think this is true.” But you did not mention which one you are referring to.

   Did you read the recent postings on this page? I understand it is very difficult and confusing to read this page and quickly get the latest status of the art we are developing. I think Bob should think about how to solve this problem. There must be some software solutions. Maybe we can create some keywords with links that will sequentially take us through the latest art. Or some kind of drop down menus.

   There are some designs given on how money less economy will work. KT, please look for them.

   This confusions are happening repeatedly, because we do not have the FAQ now. I have requested Bob, Nick, Chris, Tommy to see if something can be done to direct any one of us at the correct item number in the FAQ list.

   KT, we have also a list of different phases of implementation stage of money less economy. Please look at that. What you are saying about the products and technology is absolutely true in the final phase of money less economy. But during the initial phases, that is, for the first 10 years or so, we have to do different things.

   It has been mentioned somewhere in this page that in the money-less economy you have to work for free for 40 hours every week. Otherwise you do not get your free food and free shelter. Please look at these things and comment.

   I will eagerly wait for your views.

   Reply to Subhendu Das
   1. kt posted the following on July 4, 2011 at 1:42 am.

      I was actually responding to one of your earlier posts from July 2, 2011 6:17:18 PM EDT the one that contained this statement:

      In reality people will work for more hours in money less economy than in money based economy. Just like we are all working today, Saturday, free of money. This is because we are all doing what we love doing. In a moneyless economy everybody will do what they like and therefore they will completely devote themselves for their work.

      A couple of years ago, I got to talking with someone else on this thread and we actually spent about 8 months working on a site/trading ideas etc, so none of these ideas are all that new to me.

      In the ensuing year and a half, I’ve come to view the problem not with money, per se, but with it’s distribution and the ways it can be artificially “grown” through interest and other financial gimmicks, like stocks.

      As to this:

      It has been mentioned somewhere in this page that in the money-less economy you have to work for free for 40 hours every week. Otherwise you do not get your free food and free shelter. Please look at these things and comment.

      I just don’t see any advantage to it. You’re not actually eliminating money, you’re just replacing it with a complex system of rules and regulations that accomplish essentially the same thing.

      Money isn’t the root of all evil, it’s actually a pretty slick invention. What is evil is interest and the gross overvaluation of certain skills.

      Reply to kt
      1. Subhendu Das posted the following on July 4, 2011 at 11:28 am.

         KT,

         Thanks for responding back.

         Please read my post on June 30, 2011. That was probably my first day on your site. That describes what money is now; and how 40 hours replaces it.

         After reading that let me know why this creates more complex set of rules and regulations. We have 40 hours now; in the moneyless system also we will have 40 hours. So no changes happens there. Therefore no more new rules are required also. So complexity cannot increase.

         The requirement is we work free. So complex rules related to tax, pensions, banking accounts all go away. So it becomes significantly simpler. No more need for the entire financial systems.

         Tell me now why this is more complex. When everything is free all rules and regulations vanishes. You cannot have anything simpler than that.

         The slogan is – work free and get everything free.

         Reply to Subhendu Das
   2. chyris posted the following on July 4, 2011 at 1:25 pm.

      only adddresses a small portion of the problems. hard currency puts the hardest bind on the oligarchy and their crimes against humanity. elimination or at least marginalize it to no more than 2% might hellp the abuse. most important and should be done at the earliest moment is the elimination of inheritance. inheritance is where the monied dynasties have kept the bind on humanity. Ther insessant demeaning methods conducting wars, manufacturing waar machines, using their government machines to harass innnocent persons and causing their havoc.

      Reply to chyris

In order to lessen confusion on this site, please do a ctrl f for find and put in the date:

july 4, 2011 then simply go through them with up or down arrows as necessary. Or search on names or any key word you want to see each mention of. Simple.

Cheers,

Bob
***

be sure to join the group http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=19960438519

We cannot go forward to a free society if we are forcing people to work. Everyone is special! and our society should reflect this.
What right have you or anyone else to impose your values onto others? [this is known as facism]
To change the world we must first change ourselves, [think you should take a good look at yourself]
Why would forcing people into work and then grading their work into usefull, less usefull encourage people to grow? Does it work in this society? The only growth we see is materialism and inequality, and you want to apply the same priciples into a moneyfree world?
in our present society we are “encouraged” to work and “grow” grow = material accumalation be it bank balance or luxury items.
surely in a free society the emphasis will not be on material growth but on spiritual and emotional growth?
And Tommy you have NOT answered any of the valid points I have mentioned against merit systems.
In a mature debate we respond logically to points made, we dont try to quiet people with meaningless platitudes.

1. Subhendu Das posted the following on July 4, 2011 at 12:30 pm.

   Nick,

   In a money less economy we are not forcing people to work. If you do not work you do not get food and shelter. That is the same system we have now also.

   We are not imposing our values on others also. In fact in capitalism we are imposing values. We are forcing to work on tobacco companies, military companies. In a money less economy you choose your work, anywhere you want, on any subject you want. You have complete freedom to choose your job. This is not feasible now in capitalism.

   In capitalism, I want to work, but I cannot get a job. Thus in present time even though I want to work and buy my food and shelter, I cannot do that. In money less economy that will be completely gone. I will always have enough work.

   Money less economy will profoundly change ourselves. Capitalism forces us to change in a particular direction dictated by the central bank. It imposes its value on us. In money less economy you decide what value you want to pursue. I am sure everyone will purse Bible.

   We are not grading anybody in money less economy. There is no need for merit. Since everything is free. No rules and regulations are required.

   In a money less economy, you want material growth, you can have it also. People are working free. There are seven billion people. You will always find people who will produce whatever you want. Since they have to work free for 40 hours, they will come and build your product.

   I am willing to answer all your points valid or invalid, simple or complex. Please post them only one at a time, I will try to answer them one by one and as long as you are not satisfied.

   But please read again my June 30, 2011 post that defines what money less economy is and how it works. If you find anything wrong there let me know. I am open to all negative questions, that is the only way I can improve my design. Negative questions detect flaws. They are very much needed.

   Reply to Subhendu Das

Most people in the moneyfree movement want to create a classless society. What tommy is suggesting is a class ridden society. further the 40 hour work malarky/ why the hell do we have to work at all, most of whats produced can be produced by machine and technology .
seems some of you kids want a moneyfree society with the same values and inequalitys as a money society.
Implementing and creating labour saving machinery that has been put on the back burner becuase of the fear of the unemployment it will make, will be one of our first prioritys.
Most people do want to do some work, in fact many people become depressed and some commit suicide when they become eunemployed. One of our amazing traits is that we need to feel usefull and we crave for social respect [hence all the bling and staus sysmbol in the capitalist society]
sorry boys a society based on a merit system will be a class ridden society with great inequality and it definetly wont get my vote or most of the moneyfree movements vote
A moneyfree society based on merit will be social/facism

1. Subhendu Das posted the following on July 4, 2011 at 1:07 pm.

   Nick,

   Please read my first post on June 30, 2011. There I have defined what money less economy is and how it works.

   I did not say it creates a class less society. I have mentioned there that if you want to live in a big house, you can have it. Hire a contractor he will build it for you for free. Since he will have to work free for 40 hours.

   If you want a corporate jet, you can have it too. It will be free for you. But remember you also have to work free for 40 hours a week. Without that you do not get anything just like now.

   We cannot produce everything now with machines and technology. So at present moment we have to work for 40 hours and provide the manual labor required. I have described in another post different phases for implementing money less economy. At the final phase you will get what you want. But you cannot get now in the first phase of the money less economy. Society and technology are not ready.

   Reply to Subhendu Das

Subhendu,

Your English seems fine, I think you have had an expensive education. Do your folks not speak English? Do you know about ordinal positions in families? For instance i am the younger brother of an older brother. Are you an older brother of a younger brother? These ordinal positions influence very strongly your personality as you grow. I have not studied it for some time. A good book is “First Child, Second Child” Can’t remember the authors. These different ordinal positions make us all different. Good thing too. But that does not stop us understanding things when they are presented correctly, in practice, or should I say praxis? I guess you are a young guy. I am not so young but I got my ideas when I was young. Please come up with some stuff that I for one would not criticise.

Cheers,

Bob
***

Brian,

You have said – “The task is to make money powerless and solely a means of exchange”.

This is not what I have been talking about. Please see my post on June 30, 2011.

I have said money will not be there in the new economic system. It will be replaced by 40 hours.

Since money is not there in the new system, there is no need for a means of exchange. On the same, June 30, post I have mentioned you will get anything you want for free. You do not have to buy or pay anything to get anything. All you have to do is work free for 40 hours every week, in return you get everything free.

Are you, by any chance in UK? Do we have any one from Germany in this group?

1. kt posted the following on July 7, 2011 at 5:18 pm.

   Subhendu: “I have said money will not be there in the new economic system. It will be replaced by 40 hours.”

   I have read and completely understand your idea, but one thing you never seem to acknowledge is that in this new world you envision, literally millions of jobs become totally superfluous. They would cease to exist. You can’t “work 40 hours” if there is no longer anything left for you to do.

   Just showing up at some post-money business and declaring yourself ready to work is not enough if that business doesn’t have anything for you to do.

   Sales, gone. Accounting, gone. Insurance, gone. Banking, gone. Investing, gone. Advertising, gone. Lots of other jobs, gone. What are all the people who have put in time and effort learning these skills going to do for their mandated 40 hours? Pick lettuce?

   Reply to kt
   1. chris posted the following on July 7, 2011 at 5:23 pm.

      kt, at least for a first in their life they would have a productive purpose, and that would be a positive for mankind

      Reply to chris
      1. kt posted the following on July 7, 2011 at 8:39 pm.

         Chris

         As delicious as it is to imagine Wall Street assholes out in the hot sun picking lettuce, we would have to seriously ramp up our salad intake in to create productive work for the millions of newly jobless bankers, insurance brokers, sales people, ad people etc…

         I like salad as much as the next guy, but I’m not prepared to eat to 50 pounds of the stuff per day just to give the displaced millions something to do

         Reply to kt
   2. Subhendu Das posted the following on July 7, 2011 at 9:08 pm.

      Kt,

      You have said – “literally millions of jobs become totally superfluous. They would cease to exist. You can’t “work 40 hours” if there is no longer anything left for you to do.”

      We have discussed this issue before. Please see my post on July 2, 2011, at 3:20 pm.

      The main idea is that – on the first day after roll over from money-based economy to money-less economy, if we all do not go to our work places as usual and do not work for 40 hours, tremendous chaos can take over the society.

      Imagine what can happen – electric power stations will stop, airplanes will not fly, teachers will not come to schools, grocery stores will be looted, there will be no food etc. To prevent these things from happening we have to maintain everything as it is now by working 40 hours. Things will take time to slowly change to the new money less economy. I am expecting this period will last for 10 years.

      It may be possible for us to work for 20 hours and still satisfy our needs, as the society moves to the other phases of development as I have described on my July 2 post.

      But I still have a feeling work hours will not reduce. Imagine when computers were not there 30 years back. Everybody thought that the introduction of computers will reduce the labor force. But it did not happen. We needed more people to do more computer related jobs. New kind of jobs will appear in our new economy.

      These days in capitalism, many of us are doing over time. We cannot seem to finish our jobs in 40 hours. There are people, in universities, factories; and there are business men, politicians who are working more than 60 hours a week now. So I have doubt that work hours will reduce.

      The number of hours issue can be managed, monitored, and controlled as and when it changes according to the needs of the society. But we have to work and it must be free. No work, no food.

      Reply to Subhendu Das

no, paper money is the primary problem, there is nothing but fake faith in criminal persons, gold as you state can still be messed with to a point, but we know if it is not in you hands you have nothing but some one s promise which is just as likely not good as it is good. Paper curency was outlawed by the founding fatheres in the United States because they knew of the evils they had seen recently, they established gold as a currency as it kept things tied to a commodity. nothing stops people from passing notes from one to another for flexablity, you really need to study the money issue, today the fiat money system of the earth is owned by approximately 4,000 families, that s what a paper money system will always lead to, you are right on the reassesment of jobs and pay, but those things can be done by working persons and paying direct in cash to eliminate the government s from our financial lives, things will fall into place

If we start evaluating work then we inadvertently create class and a class ridden society is what we DONT want. In fact it is the evaluation of work that has helpt determine capitalist society.
Also IF we did evaluate work , who would do the evaluation? If it was democraticly done then the most common job would be the most highly valued?
I am totally against the objective evaluation of the human expression

1. Subhendu Das posted the following on July 8, 2011 at 2:18 pm.

   Nick,
   You have said it perfectly. I agree with you 100%. We should not evaluate. I give more reasons to show that (1) it is not possible to evaluate and (2) we do not evaluate now in capitalism also.

   (A) In nature we do not say apple is good and orange is bad. We do not even think along that line. We never thought that we have to compare apples and oranges. Similarly, we do not say cat is good and dog is bad; sun is good and moon is bad; winter is better than summer, etc. We never distinguish things in nature, we accept them as they are, and accepted them very honestly and sincerely. Why then we say Mr. X is bad and Mr. Y is good? We are also part of nature. Why don’t we accept each other as we are?

   The main reason of distinguishing people is that those who are in power want to control us. They want to stamp some people as good to increase their sphere of influence and some as bad. And unfortunately we bought into that idea. It is them, the power people, who introduced the good and bad words in the human society.

   (B) In capitalism we do not evaluate people. We just arbitrarily stamp people. Since capitalism is totally dictatorial, we can be fired if we disagree, we accepted the false evaluation done by our bosses. Not only we accepted it, we started believing it also.

   Suppose Mr X is doing job A and Mr Y is doing job B. This is the normal situation in every corporation and in all work places. How can you compare Mr X and Mr Y? They are doing two different jobs. It is like comparing apples and oranges. Unless they do the same job you cannot compare them. In capitalism same job is never given to two different persons at the same time. You cannot compare Job A and Job B either. For they are two different things; again like apples and oranges. Thus when we compare we do not do it scientifically, we just use their personalities, and see who should be stamped good to benefit the boss.

   (C) You cannot compare two jobs A and B. Let us say job A is designing an electronic circuit board using microprocessor and Job B is doing a graphic art work for the marketing brochure. Both jobs are in the same company. How can you say A is better than B and pay higher salary for A?

   You would probably say A is hard work; it took long time to understand it. That is not correct, both persons did bachelor degrees, and both took same number of years. In fact I would say graphic art is a more creative work. It is hard for brain to produce new ideas every now and then. Engineering is a cook book approach – follow the steps listed in the books, use the tools provided, you get the result.

   (D) I would like you to – please check my post on reincarnation – dated July 07, 2011, 2:32 pm. Watch the videos there also. This reincarnation law says that we were all here in this world for many many life times in the past. Our all past life experiences and knowledge bases are with us. You cannot evaluate me based on just what I am doing now in this life. It will be a very narrow minded approach to life. We must take the global space time view to all problems to really understand what is going on in our planet.

   Thus we can see that there is no theoretical foundation for comparing merits and jobs. It will be an insult to humanity and disservice to god to compare. We all agreed that the money less economy is a profound solution for humanity. This solution is so great that it automatically eliminates comparison of persons and their works.

   Reply to Subhendu Das
   1. kt posted the following on July 9, 2011 at 7:42 pm.

      Subhendu:
      “In nature we do not say apple is good and orange is bad. We do not even think along that line. We never thought that we have to compare apples and oranges”

      In some sort of mystical context, I suppose you could make this argument, but from the fanciest first world supermarket to the most primitive third world vegetable cart, people do in fact make billions of these sorts of judgements every day. (p.s. I know this was a metaphor)

      nick9tap:
      “If we start evaluating work then we inadvertently create class and a class ridden society is what we DONT want. In fact it is the evaluation of work that has helpt determine capitalist society.”

      You can’t excise the necessity to evaluate and judge just because it creates difficulties in your moneyless economic models.

      Subhendu:
      “Most important problem to be solved is not the design. It is in the Big Bang moment. Without any idea on how to achieve that moment money-less economy will not happen.”

      If I had to choose a single option from the forest of possibilities, I would vote for the gradual elimination of interest as the most important near term goal. It’s conceptually simple, could be kick started quickly through a simple vote and could be implemented as a series of descending interest caps over an agreed upon timeframe. This one change would have a profound impact on the world.

      With that, thanks all for the debate. KT signing off.

      Reply to kt
      1. Robert Howes posted the following on July 9, 2011 at 11:09 pm.

         Hi KT,

         So you have your vote, on the Internet. Then what? How can it be implemented? Do you tell the banks to stop asking for interest on the loans they provide? Even if they agree they will get around it by some means, a service charge for instance. What we need to do is stop using money except for buying land and capital equipment etc. Everything can be created when we have the land and the equipment. all we need add is our labour and our ingenuity.

         Cheers,

         Bob
         ***

         Reply to Robert Howes
      2. Subhendu Das posted the following on July 10, 2011 at 1:28 am.

         KT,

         Please explain how you normally compare apples and oranges when you go to a supermarket.

         Reply to Subhendu Das

I would be happy to do 40 hours per seven days, that’s under 6 hours per day. Even better if I can choose my work. At present my work chooses me as much as I choose it. Earlier I went out in my tipper to get a ton of offcuts of pallet (wood) for the boiler for hot water. They (unusually) had none, so I went a little bit further and got some old railway sleepers and various bits of other wood plus some spanners and sockets and a few coins from Stillman’s old scrap yard. There’s not much there now.
***
Also even better if my 40 hours buys me what £400 would not. But my wants are not great as I do not consume animals (I’m vegan), I do not consume tobacco, or alcohol or chemicals (speed etc) or hash. Not even tea or coffee or cocoa (or chocolate). I consume quite a few bananas (that I get for nothing. I grow some potatoes and tomatoes and other vegetables and some trees and shrubs. And I keep my vehicles on the road (N reg Transit tipper plus 2001 Hyundai Amica) I bought and fitted the log burning boiler system here so we could get off the fossil gas. I intend to generate electricity from wood too and harvest rainwater. I get no pay for any of this work. 40 hours credit would be nice. I’m sure we can find plenty of work for out of work bankers.

Cheers,

Bob
***

Please study this: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/05/27-5

1. Subhendu Das posted the following on July 10, 2011 at 10:45 am.

   The reference that Bob sited, on his July 10, 2011 at 5:40 am post, is written by – a professor of political economy at the university of Maryland in USA.

   In his article the author realized – “It is by no means obvious, however, how even a very expansive vision of such trends would lead to “systemic” or “transformative” change”.

   I agree with his conclusion. However the author failed to identify the root cause of the problem – money is free for the central bank but it is not free for anyone else.

   I think we should do something to spread this idea. Our political leaders, most educated people, even most economist do not know the facts. Interestingly, this is well known on the internet.

   Reply to Subhendu Das

If you want free electricity, that is to say free of bills from the electricity company though there will be a capital cost to buy the equipment then gasification of wood is a good way to go. See: http://s180.photobucket.com/albums/x229/Dutch-John/DJ-3%20woodpowered%20power%20generator/

I’m planning to build one of these some time. I now have the equipment and materials. But not enough time right now.

Cheers,

Bob
***

Subhendu: “Please explain how you normally compare apples and oranges when you go to a supermarket”

Normally the apples/oranges metaphor is used to imply the impossibility of comparing two dissimilar things. What I was arguing is that apple/orange, engineer/artist comparisons are actually not that difficult so long as there is some agreed upon context for the comparison.

For example if we choose general health as the comparison context, oranges are better than apples. They contain more essential vitamins and minerals and in higher concentrations than apples. I believe we can do basically the same thing when evaluating the “worth” of an individual’s contributions in various economic models and that these evaluations should play some role in rewarding extraordinary individual efforts.

Subhendu: “I interpret these statements as a detailed analysis of everything will reveal either truth (God) or error (Devil).”

That’s not quite right. At least in the U.S., it’s used to caution against over enthusiasm. Ideas/policies/etc that seem great at a high level often become intractable when you move from concept to implementation.

For the foreseeable future, I have to move on to more practical matters, but enjoyed the back and forth.

1. Subhendu Das posted the following on July 15, 2011 at 10:27 pm.

   Kt

   Respond whenever you have time. I know we are all very busy with our lives. This is a long post, and will require careful attention.

   ——————————————————
   On the second subject when you said – “Ideas/policies/etc that seem great at a high level often become intractable when you move from concept to implementation”, you actually supported my interpretation.

   Your sentence means – things appear to work at high level and become intractable (error) at implementation (details) level. Which is same as devil (error) is in the details, i.e. fails to work at the detail level.

   You probably know that someone said – Apple a day keeps the doctor away.

   ——————————————————
   On the first subject, you have raised scientific issues, like vitamins, minerals etc. I do not believe anything under capitalism. Just like economics does not work, all math and science cannot and do not work also under capitalism. It is the effect of money that has destroyed everything in both math and science.

   Just to give an example, consider the well known Newton’s first law, which we have studied in high school physics class. I claim this is wrong. Here is why:

   Newton’s First law:
   (a) In the absence of any interaction with something else
   (b) An object at rest will remain at rest
   (c) An object in motion will continue in motion at constant velocity, that is, in constant speed in a straight line

   The part (a) is the assumption of the law. Can this assumption be correct? No, it cannot be correct. If the assumption is wrong then obviously the results cannot be correct also. See below, if you want, for more details.

   You cannot place a ball above the surface of earth and leave it alone there, because earth is interacting with the ball and it will make it fall. Thus in near earth all objects are interacting with earth’s gravitational force. Therefore the assumption is invalid near earth. Now, is there a place in deep space within our solar system where there is any absence of interaction? The answer is again – No. If you put a ball in the deep space, then it will face the gravitational attractions of sun, earth, moon, and all other planets. Their resultant force will not be zero. If you go much deeper, outside our solar system or even outside our galaxy, you will still find that all galaxies will have some gravitational forces acting on the ball. Thus there is no place in the universe where there is no interaction with the ball. Thus the assumption of the Newton’s first law is invalid even in deep space. Therefore the Newton’s first law itself is invalid.

   If you leave the ball in the deep space, it will immediately start moving in a curved path. The path will be curved because our universe is constantly moving. Thus the total force on the ball will be changing all the time, both in magnitude and in direction; therefore it cannot go in a straight line. Thus we see that the conclusions of the law cannot be true. The conclusion is false because the assumption is wrong. Therefore the first law is completely invalid in all senses.

   Then why are we teaching this subject in schools? The answer is in the money power.

   Thanks for your time and response.

   Reply to Subhendu Das
   1. Robert Howes posted the following on July 16, 2011 at 5:11 am.

      Subhendu,

      You seem to be confused about the laws of motion. Please ask someone to explain it to you. It is very simple. When forces are balanced then an object will continue as is. How could it be otherwise? Please try to stay focused. Once the ball comes to rest on the ground it is in balance and will stay there. And in space it is only because there is no absolute balance that a ball will not continue for ever in a straight line. It is gravity that will pull it into an arc until the forces are in balance. I have this theory that our universe that we can see is only one of many and that is the reason for the red shift increasing of the outer galaxies because they are being pulled towards the outer galaxies of the adjoining universes and they are getting closer, or should I say they were doing so 13 billion years ago and by now they may well have collided and created new big bangs and new universes at the interstices of the old ones. When we see blue shift outer galaxies that will confirm the theory. Maybe not in our lifetime though.

      Cheers,

      Bob
      ***

      Reply to Robert Howes
      1. Subhendu Das posted the following on July 16, 2011 at 9:29 am.

         Hi Bob,

         The following statements can be found in the textbook [Ferraro, 2007, p. 8] about the Newton’s first law: “We could hardly sustain that this principle [First law] is a strict experimental result. On the one hand it is not evident how to recognize whether a body is free of forces or not. Even if a unique body in the universe were thought, it is undoubted that its movement could not be rectilinear and uniform in every reference system”

         Reference – Ferraro, R. (2007), Einstein’s Space-time, Springer.

         All subjects are related. That is because they are all controlled by money. It is the same money that is controlling all the people of the world. You cannot analyze economics properly in isolation with politics, science, philosophy, religion etc. They are all linked together. That is why you see so much of multi-disciplinary and inter-disciplinary researches are going on now on the internet.

         I have questioned the assumption behind the Newton’s first law. If the assumption is wrong then the law must be wrong. Please help me to find any error in my statements in the previous post [July 15, 2011 at 10:27 pm]. Please analyze it and read it carefully. If you are correct then I must be wrong, and you will be able to detect the errors in my statements.

         No one should trust our math and science. They have become a cover to protect the capitalism. I can only trust technology or engineering. Engineering can produce physical product that we can hold, touch, and feel. Math and science do not have that characteristics.

         Best regards,
         Subhendu

         Reply to Subhendu Das

it s not really true that though the fed prints almost at will it notes and they are accepted, but you or any one else has at any time the right to negotioate a note if you can get another to accept it. we have a doubt of our fellow man and we for the most part don t have faith in others notes because of the failure of the judicaial system. their fiat money system along with insurance and banking in gerneral is used to transfer the wealth of the creators to the oligarchy, those issue are the most important to be addressed in the next number of years regardles of where we may get otherwise

1. Subhendu Das posted the following on July 22, 2011 at 3:35 pm.

   Chris,
   You said – “though the fed prints almost at will”.

   How much money the Fed is printing is never known and will never be known. This is because it is a very secret and private organization, which plays the central role in capitalism and its policy of transferring wealth. It is the only body that can print money and control unemployment.

   The Bloomberg news claims [1] in a law suit against the Fed, that the Fed spent $12.8 trillion as bailout money. The GDP during 2008 was $14.2 trillion. Thus we have a very high hidden inflation. If you do not know the amount of money present in the economy then you cannot compute the real inflation. All the inflation data presented by the government are therefore fictitious.

   Roger [2] writes – “Of all the losses suffered during the current recession [of 2008], one of the most notable (and well deserved) is the loss in reputation suffered by today’s macroeconomics textbooks”.

   [1] Pittman, M., & Ivry, B., (2009), Financial Rescue Nears GDP as Pledges Top $12.8 Trillion (Update1), Bloomberg, March 31.

   [2] Garrison, R., (2009), Mainstream macro in an Austrian nutshell, Auburn University.

   Reply to Subhendu Das

The following time I learn a weblog, I hope that it doesnt disappoint me as much as this one. I mean, I know it was my option to learn, but I truly thought youd have something attention-grabbing to say. All I hear is a bunch of whining about one thing that you could possibly repair should you werent too busy on the lookout for attention.

1. Subhendu Das posted the following on September 11, 2011 at 10:52 am.

   For: Many social places ….

   You said – “but I truly thought youd have something attention-grabbing to say.” We have defined very carefully the money-less economy (MLE). It will be helpful if you can point out at least one flaw in it. We will fix it in the next round with inputs from you.

   You have said – “bunch of whining about one thing.” Yes that is very true though. I am desperately looking for a solution on how to implement MLE. Let me know if you have any ideas. (See FAQ 2 below)

   Can we repair as you said – “you could possibly repair”? For one individual yes there are solutions in this blog. See Bob’s posts. (See FAQ 3 below)

   I will try to guess your reasons for disappointment and add some FAQ, hoping that it will answer your frustration, for now.

   I am also available by email: subhendu.das@excite.com

   *****************************************************************************************
   FAQ 1: Is moneyless economy (MLE) an utopia?

   MLE is really meaningful and practical. You will be surprised to know that our present economy is actually a MLE in disguise.

   Who prints the money now? It is the central bank (CB) of your country. It is a private bank, and your government does not have any control over it. The CB can print money as much as it wants, whenever it wants, give it to anybody it wants, and nobody can stop it. Thus the money is free for the CB. Therefore the existing economy is really a MLE. Everything else in our present society is artificial and manmade.

   See more on this blog.

   *****************************************************************************************
   FAQ 2: Can we implement a MLE?

   No, we cannot. Money power is very strong. All large corporations, all rich people, the central bank, other banks, the government are all supporters of the existing money based economy. Most importantly, 90% of the population believes in and supports the money power. It cannot be removed by any popular movement.

   The Nobel Laureate in economics, Milton Friedman, said this about the central bank: “One unsolved economic problem of the day is how to get rid of the Federal Reserve”. Federal Reserve is the CB for USA. Thus we have no solution.

   See more on this blog.

   *****************************************************************************************
   FAQ 3: Can we live like a moneyless person in the present system?

   As an individual surely you can. Gandhi and Buddha have taught us how to do that. But that is a very hard life and it is not the right solution for the modern society.

   If you have family, kids, house then you should not become homeless and live like them. There is a better solution for the mankind. The MLE is the only way to go.

   See more on this blog.

   Reply to Subhendu Das

Dear Friends,

I have added a list of FAQ on money-less economy at the site:

https://createmoneylesseconomy.wordpress.com/

I did not do a good job there. This is my first effort of this kind.
I do not even know if the site works or not.

Please visit the site and let me know if you want to add any new FAQ.
It summarizes the ideas that I have learnt from your site and your comments.

Best Regards,
Subhendu at:
subhendu.das@excite.com

There is now clear-cut scientific evidence that we can end war today, if we want to. It doesn’t cost a penny and doesn’t use a single weapon. It involves nothing more than group meditation – and the group does not have to include the whole, or even a majority of the people. One percent of a body of people can reduce crime and violence by 16% while at the same time improving life quality by the same quantifiable amounts. Government and major universities around the globe have conducted studies verifying this. So why don’t we have peace? Because peace isn’t profitable. Meditation isn’t profitable. War is.

In that same body of knowledge is evidence that we can end most illnesses, which are now thought to be symptoms of chronic stress that we impose upon ourselves when we live by a set of rules (worldview) that is inconsistent with how reality really works. So why is no one talking about this marvelous new body of knowledge that will make us all healthier? Why isn’t the U. S. N. I. H. (National Institute of Health) broadcasting the results of their own studies? Because wellness isn’t profitable. Illness is.

Not yet studied by science, but something that I have proven to myself to complete satisfaction, is that we are as safe as we want to be. Others have tested this and also found it true. When I put myself in a place of peace, no thug or no army of thugs can harm me. Sounds incredible, I know, but I know that peace is a power by and of itself, and that it is a power that is available to each and every one of us, thus to the collective.

Why hasn’t all of this knowledge filtered down to so many? Why aren’t the governments of the world that have studied this talking excitedly about it? First and foremost, they know that if they bring this knowledge to the attention of the people, that equality will be restored – a frightening concept to the powerful.

They withhold the information and do not reveal what the evidence is now showing (though politicians use the power of thought to get elected – just as athletes use it to perfect their abilities). At the same time, if peace threatens to overtake us, rather than show this evidence that has been gathered, they will point out all of the people put out of work by the dismantling of the military-industrial complex. They will promote fear that is caused by nothing more than absence of available knowledge.

Right now, the U. S. Dept of Education has as its mission statement that it exists to prepare students for global competition. It does not exist to prepare students for life. It doesn’t exist to foster harmony that comes through proper education. It doesn’t even exist to educate. Competition is a mild form of war that has no place in a Dept. of Education. The U. S. Dept of Ed. is, according to its own mission statement, a corporate subsidy. It trains people so that corporations don’t have to. It is really a Dept. of Indoctrination that is well served by our enforced ignorance. As such, it withholds information that it doesn’t want known (such as the above that is understandable by even a young child), and it promotes teaching of outright lies about American history – so that the people cannot see the exact and identifiable point when power stopped flowing from the people to government and it started flowing in reverse – with unequal treatment for most. (A coup d’etat in the form of a Supreme Court decision called McCulloch v. Maryland that set us up as a war-based economy because it dealt with the establishment of an unconstitutional national bank that found its greatest profits came from interest-bearing war funding.) The U. S Dept of Ed has effectively turn us into commodities. We have been carefully taught that the irrational is the new logic.

Even the U. S. Dept. of Commerce doesn’t exist to help people like you and me establish small businesses that suit our talents and our interests – something that requires knowledge, not money. According to its mission statement, it too exists to promote global competition.

Why do our government bodies focus so strenuously on competition? Why does government enjoy pitting us against one another? Why the focus on that which is not peace or prosperity?

Because it diminishes us in our own eyes. Because ignornace keeps us in fear. A people who are afraid are powerless. Fear is the antithesis of power.

This knowledge of the power of thought is the same knowledge that a man allegedly named Jesus talked about, two thousand years before quantum mechanics and the discovery of the unified field of consciousness confirmed his teachings. But the priestcraft that is an ally of the kingcraft works very hard at preventing this knowledge from being understood in its proper anti-religious context. Churches gain a distinct advantage when they promote fear, as all of the churches of the Abrahamic Tradition do.

We who have discovered the illusion of the perception of disconnectedness can begin the transition into a moneyless society as soon as we find onoe another – and then reach enough people and show them how they are “functionally” uneducated – while showing them the rewards of properly educating themselves in areas where knowledge has been withheld or where they have been fed lies.

Knowledge is also power. It is a subset of the power of peace. Peace is not what we have learned to call peace. In George Orwell’s “1984”, the people chanted “War is Peace, Ignorance is Strength, Slavery is Freedom”. A vast majority of those alive today believe this as well – as evidenced by their words and actions. For as long as most do not recognize this obvious truth, money will reign supreme. Money serves the lie.

Those who see beyond the illusion of disconnectedness need to find a way to come together with a purpose in mind. Thanks to the Internet, this is now possible – for the first time in human history.

And for those who think that I tread too closely to religion, I assure you that I do not speak of religion. I speak of the power of the individual, amplified by our power as one being – through the unified field of consciousness that has been scientifically proven to exist.

1. Robert Howes posted the following on October 31, 2011 at 6:56 am.

   Please tell us more Gail,

   Please get right down to the nitty gritty.

   Cheers,

   Bob
   ***

   Reply to Robert Howes
2. chris posted the following on October 31, 2011 at 8:01 am.

   there may be truth to what you say but there is a sequence of events which would have to be followed if it were to ever happen. the top 10% that control everything are not going to just admith they are evil and wish to stop their evil, the bottom f20% are so drug infected, ignorant and incapable they will not join in the effort, the people in the middle are extremely busy fighting the two ends and the few that understand the problem are assaulted by big governemnt to prevent the ground swell. All socitial problems can be traced backk primarily to banking, finance, insurance, and police judicial system operated by the legal begles, to colaspe their system provides the open door to do as you indicate, to correct the leagal system all you need do is eliminate the monopoly of law practice so that no lawyers can represent people and move to get lawyers off the bence, the finance and insurance can colaspe by people just using cash for purchases, with that the finance people loose their grip on society, may take 5 years but with concerted effort it would be possible

   Reply to chris
   1. Robert Howes posted the following on October 31, 2011 at 8:20 am.

      Chris,

      I wonder if you have noticed squiggly red lines under some of the words as you write them. This is to indicate a wrong spelling. Please take note of these and make corrections before submitting so that we can all understand your words correctly. Also, you seem rather pessimistic about change to a better way of living. I suggest you start off by telling yourself that the job can be done, all we (I/you) need do is figure out how. Then take the first step then the second and so on. The control that the top 10% have over us is crude and can be thwarted by clever use of the system. I have my way and you could develop your own way. Many are doing it their way. You could join any of those who are already doing it. Just decide which of the groups you want to join. I will be starting a group when I am ready. Not quite ready yet. Where are you by the way?

      Cheers,

      Bob
      ***

      Reply to Robert Howes
      1. chris posted the following on October 31, 2011 at 5:38 pm.

         louisiana, if it were possible to improve this system we are currently oppressed by I would be ready to impliment it immediately. but we are so far from that today, you would have to be able to slip some small bit through now to give the people some idean that it does in fact have a chance. For instance we know police commit more than 50% of the burglaries in the US and I doubt that things are much different in other lands. If we were to say at least find a way to mandate that they cannot be heirs to stolen property by requiring all property no returned to the rightful owner destroyed and that further the all victims be restored to previosu property by the fund that pay policemen. They then have an obligation to do their job investigating crime. I know here they never investigate, only fill out report. If the message were to be blasted throughout the world, then it might be becoming of this and other governments to have to do this. if they ignore the blast, you then know the monumental task that faces you.and if you then cannot find end run around that block, then all is lost

         Reply to chris

Quickest way to visualize a multiverse – using actual science.

Take a photon and split it in half. This makes two smaller photons. But now you have more than two photons. You really have three photons. The first photon that was split in half still exists. From its perspective, it exists in two different places atthe same time.

How do we know that? Recently proven by someone in Switzerland (though I don’t think at CERN, when you split a photon and send the two parts down optic cables in oppostie directions until they are miles apart, you can adjust the spin of one of the mini photons and the other will instantaneously change its spin. How did the information get from one photon to the other in zero time? It got there because the “event” was also occuring in another (unseen) dimension.

Look at it another way. Split a photon, sending each into separate boxes where their trajectories are manipulated through the use of mirrors that allow them to reunite. The reunited photon has experienced two separate pasts. You, as an “outside” observer, are able to see this, though if the photons are self-aware, we have no idea of how they perceive their realities.

this is all consistent with thermodynamics.

Look at Schroedinger’s equation for mathematical proof of invisible dimensions (more easily understood through his thought experiment called The Schroedinger’s Cat experiment). Put a cat in a box with a divice that is guaranteed to kill the cat at some UNKNOWN point in the next 60 minutes. During that 60 minutes, the cat is both alive and dead at the same time for the entirety of the 60 mins. You can open the box at any time during the 60 minutes, and the possibility of the cat’s being either alive or dead remains a 50/50 chance for every portion of that 60 minute segment. When you open the box, you are in whatever reality that exists for you when the box is opened, but another reality (dimension) also exists – as the unseen. The universe splits in two and both realities continue on their merry way – neither being physically visible to the other.

Consider also the twin slit experiment. Shoot a beam of light through a narrow slit. Look behind the slit and you will see a band of light aprroximatiing the size and shape of the slit. Now place a second slit beside the first and turn the light back on. You will see a whole array of bands of light. These bands are called wave patterns. Now – place a device behind the slits to measure which slit the light came through – and the bands disappear. How did the photons know that they were going to be observed?

This is all evidence of extra dimensions

There is more. This is just the starter. Plenty of evidence for those who are willing to look for it. Time is not at all what we think it is and there certainly are unseen dimensions at play in our realities. The finest minds in the world today agree on that. No hokus-pokus required.

Thank you for your comments Danny, but I hope that you do not misunderstand me. I am not ruled by my heart – or by my emotions if that’s what you mean. I am a fierce defender of logic and I require it of myself and those who wish to change my opinions (beliefs). I do not see scientific information as esoteric in any way. In fact, the use of the word esoteric is rather frightening for many to hear. For me, it’s frustrating to hear. It’s very hard to reach someone who believes that knowledge is esoteric. This means that there is a problem. Communication is nearly impossible.

For an atheist and a theist to communicate, (and I am neither) there has to be a common language, and perhaps I can help bridge the gap between you and Bob, but it will not help to insult Bob by saying that he is not open to understanding when you have not made the effort to speak in a language that Bob can understand. That’s not fair to Bob, who is, after all, only asking for evidence of what you assert. Supporting claims with evidence is the way to communicate ideas effectively.

Think of it this way. Let’s say that I am so allergic to chocolate that I have no memories of ever having tasted it. You, on the other hand love it. Describe it to me. What does chocolate taste like?

You cannot communicate the taste of chocolate from your dimension of into mine, unless there is something else I have tasted that approximates it closely enough (and I don’t think that there is). You can try. You can say that it reminds you of a childhood memory when …, or you can say that it is as satisfying of sex (though it is not). You can say that it is creamy when it is in a candy bar, and I will think that a stick of butter is creamy, but then you have to say that the two don’t taste the same. You cannot force understanding into my mind. It defies the laws of physics to suggest it. We live in different dimensions.

Ultimately, all of this means that we can only talk to ourselves. We ALWAYS talk TO ourselves when we talk AT others. Logic dictates that nothing else is possible. The laws of physics demand it. But we can communicate when two people have the same basis of understanding – which is why science and math serve us so well. There is no mushiness in math. (Math always speaks truth – it can speak of error, but it does so truthfully.)

You believe in some things for which you do not have evidence. If you want your worldview to be accepted, it is time for YOU to learn what you have to learn to be able to communicate your worldview in such a way that the Atheists of the world will understand. We need one another – theists, atheists, and others – if we are to walk through the veil together and achieve the moneyless society. The only way to reach Bob is with evidence – and that may not even be enough. I do not know yet.

How much evidence does Bob want before he is satisfied? (Bob, how do you like being talked about in the 3rd person? Hope I’m not offending. It is not my intent to offend. If I do, please let me know and I will immediately apologize.) If he wants complete, 100% evidence, then he already knows that he will never see it, and you can’t make him see it, because he will be an existentialist – believing that everything – including proof – is happening in his own mind, thus denying you and me our own autonomous existences and discrediting anything that he sees or hears. If he, like me, wants a substantial burden of proof met, such as the proof that supports the “theory” of evolution, then Bob and I will have no problem understanding what you say – if you give us the information in that context.

For now you speak of light defeating darkness in a great battle. I do not see such a battle. I do know that there are an infinite number of frequencies, but I do not see frequencies as either light or dark. I do not believe in evil. Good can exist very well without it – and I can offer you a different explanation that makes far more sense than evil or darkness. I can offer a logical argument and a cohesive worldview that does not depend on any external god to fill in the gaps in my understanding. I think you would find it most helpful (and beneficial to the whole of your life) if you were to find a way to articulate your worldview in scientific terms. Then you could be the lightworker that I think you desire to be – but you could be an effective one.

Thanks for the suggestion about a blog. I think that I will set up a website that lays out the plan that can take those who dare enter therein, into a moneyless society. I’ll let you know when it’s set and will happily chat with you there on a whole host of New Age ideas that can easily be translated into science-speak so that you can communicate more effectively with a wider audience.

Again, I appreciate your feedback.

Bob, What are you trying to accomplish by insulting and demeaning Danny and Me?

You ask Dan for evidence and when he/she is unable to provide it,you discount what is said even though science is far more consistent with Danny’s worldview than your own. Life is indeed a multidimensional experience – and the universe is not a Euclidean, 3D universe as you take comfort in believing. Science shows that it is not unfair or unreasonable to say that Danny is the god of Danny’s reality and I am the god of mine and you are the god of yours and we (combined) are also a god. That is what the evidence implies.

You ask me for evidence, and when I offer you that evidence, you can’t be bother challenging your own erroneous beliefs about what science says that life looks like. You prefer to hide in your own ignorance rather than resolve a problem that requires us to see the world as it exists as oppose to how we want it to exist.

Society cannot go in a different direction using the knowingly flawed theories that got us into the predicament that we are now in. Willful ignorance is a HUGE part of the reason why we are in the plight that we facen as a species.

If you are not interested in fixing the problem – but are only interested in undermining others – why are you here? Do you like to troll?

Given that you are uninterested in facts because you have already made up your mind, your treatment of Danny and me is unreasonable. If you are unwilling to look at the evidence, you should stop asking for it.

As a matter of fact, please show me evidence that your 3D worldview is correct – because I am unaware of any.

Chris, you said, “For instance we know police commit more than 50% of the burglaries in the US and I doubt that things are much different in other lands. If we were to say at least find a way to mandate …”

There is a direct and provable causation between crime/violence and education. I am not speaking of high school diplomas or college degrees here. I am speaking of education in its truest sense.

We live in a scarcity-based society. That is the cause of crime. We have been indoctrinated into accepting that as a necessary component of how life works – but it’s simply not the truth. Information has been withheld from us to make us more malleable – which serves the powerful very well. You have also been told lies to keep you subservient (through irrational fears). Truth alone will set us free. It is our ignorance that is keeping us in this scarcity-based economy. That’s just fact.

An abundance-based society is based on what we have learned about how life REALLY works. You are a being of great power. Given this, when you know your power, and have grown confidence in it, there is no need for others to do without in order for you to have more. When enough people discover this, we can easily move into a moneyless society. It is a natural evolution. It may not make sense to you now, but that doesn’t make it untrue.

Laws won’t fix the problem. Laws such as those you suggest only exacerbate the problem. The USA has the highest percentage of people in jails of any country in the world, and you want to increase that number when all of the evidence says that the more educated a people, the less aggressive they are?

Gail,

I have reread all that I wrote to you and Danny and cannot fathom what you are talking about. Please specify where I insulted or demeaned you or Danny. I made a constructive criticism to Chris about his awful spelling. So please, if you are going to have a go at me, please specify the exact reason why. By the way, I don’t have to prove the three dimensions to you, you already know about them, but I do not know of any others, apart from time, that is, but you claim that time is other that that which I understand it to be. I am scientific in my outlook and will look at any scientific evidence. I’m not saying I will understand it, especially if it is a mass of mathematical equations, but if it is spelled out in simple terms I will try to grasp it. Your attack on me seems unwarranted and makes me wonder about your stability. Have you read Kelly on personal constructs? You might gain something from it. We all might. I hope you don’t take that as an insult, it is not intended to be such.

Cheers,

Bob
***

1. Danny Chau posted the following on November 2, 2011 at 5:09 am.

   Hi Bob,

   I’m sure you’ll like this video – is a conference about free energy in Zurich back in 2009.

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=178TJujE5oY&feature=player_embedded#!

   Best,
   Danny

   Reply to Danny Chau
   1. Robert Howes posted the following on November 2, 2011 at 6:25 am.

      Thanks Danny but I have seen the same info on another video without the German interpretation. This one is too long and I am only interested in the science. I am not interested in any false science. Show me something more solid and I’ll be interested. By the way, since Gail has not responded to my last post, do you understand what she meant?

      Cheers,

      Bob
      ***

      Reply to Robert Howes
      1. Sixpm posted the following on November 2, 2011 at 7:23 am.

         Can’t understand why she had such a reaction, I didn’t notice any lack of respect in your tone, beats me too?

         Have you heard of Benjamin Fulford? Here is one interview regarding the banking system:

         http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R8Yl5LldhY&feature=player_embedded

         Best,
         Danny

         Reply to Sixpm

Hi Gail,

So what do you want of me?

Cheers,

Bob
***

Via Danny, presumably.

For those who have not read part two, follow this link:

http://anthologyoi.com/blogish/beyond-the-socialist-dream-a-money-less-society-part-ii.html

Cheers,

Bob
***

Right now I only have minutes to spare before I move the firewood I got yesterday from where i tipped it so I can get my tipper out to go and help a hoarder friend move some of his collected items before the housing people come to steal it all from him, and this is what we must do far more of, help each other to alter the odds. I too have had much stolen in the past including just recently, but we must not get paranoid about it we must combine our strengths so that collectively we “can” keep guard on our wealth 24/7/365.
***
I call this a flexi co-op. A co-op that caters to all the needs of its members so they are not alone against the odds. I want others to join me and I have set up the beginnings of it by buying land and houses. I have four houses and three pieces of land. I have industrial land, agricultural land and housing development land. (quarter acre, 6.25 acres and 40 feet by 60 feet respectively.
***
I have plans for a flexi co-op but as yet no people to make it come alive. If others will join me we can become extremely successful and able to take on capitalism exponentially over time until there are more people living outside of capitalism with its wars and stupidity that are living with it. Then we can end it once and for all. Are you all with me? By the way I am based in South Wales UK. robertcircle1@yahoo.co.uk 01792 792 442 What have you got to lose but your paranoia?

1. chris posted the following on November 5, 2011 at 11:17 am.

   robert, that is exctly the opposite thing to do, all people have a right to exist is this world, you and your hoarder firend and as many decent people need to gettogether and not onlyh stop the invasion of rights of people by housing people come over but push to the point that the housing people no longer have jobs and find thier court system and file charges without payment but under authority of the intenational human rights commission. flood your government with paper work to give them something to do. yielding as you did is showing that no progress is made or makable

   Reply to chris
   1. Robert Howes posted the following on November 5, 2011 at 7:51 pm.

      Hi Chris,

      David and I stood up to the housing association people and only allowed them to take bags of crap. They backed down completely and we now have a further two weeks to sort out Dave’s flat. No need for any paperwork at all. We didn’t yield. We stood up to them and they backed down. Dave has now sorted through the stuff on my tipper and we will take the best stuff back to his flat after we tidy it up. It really was bad there but once we clear the clutter the housing people will spend a heap of money on the flat to make it nice. I will make sure of that. Dave, on his own is no match for them, but together we are more than a match.

      Cheers,

      Bob
      ***

      Reply to Robert Howes

Thank you Gail.

Cheers,

Bob
***

I forgot an all-important step in manifesting things in your reality:

6. Do this daily until you receive your desire.

Time varies. I’ve had some wants fulfilled in less than 10 minutes. Others a day or two. For reasons I can’t explain, most things take 28 days, but that might well be because I expect them to take longer. Beliefs are important. Others things take more time, but this only happens when I’m not ready to receive now, and in this instance I usually stop visualizing after a month.

For example, the house I live in. I was in another state (living in and traveling in motorhome) when we decided to settle down and grow some roots. I wanted my back yard to resemble the scene I was looking at. Then I wanted so spend a month in Memphis because I love the Mississippi River – so we went there, then as it got colder, we came to my present state, found our house, and bought it (with money). But I’ve received much without $.

1. chris posted the following on November 5, 2011 at 9:33 am.

   for the most part I believe you are explaining positive thinking and many have written on the same, it does work within the confins of your immediate surroundings and most here probablely are well past that point already, it will not stop a sociopath for there effect on you life, it will not solve the larger problems with society, it will not change the operation of the law, judicial , insurance, finance , banking operation,those are the largest problems in every ones life and what really need solving, it in the end run will require those broken unrepairable human debris of abuse to be imprisioned for their crimes against humanity and or to be defeated militarily or just executed. we can t save everyone and we must eliminate those who would not extend human right to others

   Reply to chris
   1. Gail posted the following on November 6, 2011 at 4:44 am.

      Chris – in response to your post of 11/5 at 9:33AM

      I am not speaking of simply “positive thinking” where I can psyche myself into seeing different outcomes and then working toward them. I am trying to express something much more powerful than that.

      Yes, we do have the ability to protect the self from a sociopath – that’s how I discovered how to place myself in peace to cause violent sociopaths to run away. When I say that I am powerful, I mean that I am powerful. You cannot harm me without my consent.

      When I was considerably younger, I saved myself from what was going to be a rape by stepping into a place of peace. At the time, it confused me why he simply walked away. But when I married a sociopath (because they can be very deceptive to those who do not know how to use the unified field – that I had never heard of when I married him), I put that piece in place.

      He was a very violent man, and I had tried to use the police, the courts, the church, my friends, and any other resource that I could find to get help. All (but my friends who did offer help, but were then punished for it) asked what I had done to upset him so much that he did what he did. The problem was always mine and he was never asked to accept responsibility for what he was doing. One day, he told me that he had played long enough, and that it was the day that I was going to die. I believed him. He had never said those words before, and he was drunk enough that I believed him. Not wanting to die in terror – I found a place of peace and was determined to remain there. He picked me up by my shirt and tried to thow me out the 2nd story window onto the asphalt driveway below, but his aim was off (because of the alcohol?) and I landed on the bed. This infuriated him. I remained at peace. He again picked me up by the shirt and threw me to the floor – but I didn’t fall violently to the floor. I fell in slow motion. (I realize that that sounds unbelievable, but it did happen) There was only a gentle meeting with the floor – and I remained at peace. He tried to hit me with his fist, but he missed. I remained at peace. He backed up and said, “what am I doing”? The assault stopped. He let me leave the marriage and he did not come after me, as he had done so many times before.

      No one will ever harm me again. I know how to protect myself.

      As to the rest – If I want to have something – let’s say just for the sake of argument – a special kind of ice cream or a grand piano, and I don’t want to go out and buy either, I can be certain that someone will appear at my door with that ice cream or someone will offer me a piano (and the full-sized, mahogany grand piano in my living room is certainly a constant reminder of my abilities). That’s not positive thinking. That’s creating my reality.

      The reason why it will stop all of the social ills, is that we get what we ask for – and we ask for things in a multitude of ways. Yes, I can visualize things into my reality, but there is more to it than that. I cannot harm you without harming myself. I cannot steal from you or kill you without destroying my ability to create the fullest, most abundant, rewarding, and inspiring reality that I can. An essential morality is built into the worldview where we are the creators of our own realities.

      Behaviors are a language and that language expresses our beliefs. Beliefs form the fabric of our realities. If I hurt you, I am expressing a belief in the benefits that I believe I will receive from harming you. But I also have to live in fear after that, because I will have shown myself that I believe that people are inherently dangerous and worthy of being feared. This BELIEF will change my behaviors, and with those behaviors, you don’t really want me in your reality. In that case, I am a threat. It’s the same with dishonesty. If I fail to be truthful, then I will doubt anything that anyone says. When I learned to be honest, I became able to see (through their words and actions) who is to be trusted and who is not.

      I will only treat you with respect if I respect myself. Nothing else is ultimately possible. I will love you if I am able to love myself. If I can’t love myself, I don’t know what love is.

      A person who is afraid of losing something or everything will behave in a very different way from a person who can simply manifest a new and better thing than that which was given away. (The person believes in the scarcity principle, will guard possessions and live in fear. A person who believes in abundance has no need to live in fear of others’ taking that which I have manifested. It’s not really relevant to a productive or rewarding life. First of all, I am safe, but if someone really wants what I have manifested, (the hard way to get things), they can have them. But the consequences they will pay would be far harsher than the consequence that I will pay by simply manifesting newer and better.

      For all of the ‘morality” that churches and governments use to keep us living in fear, and for all of the police, jails, and armies that keep us cowering, there surely is a lot of war, crime, and violence in our society.

      If you believe that these social ills are a necessary component of human life, then you will not work to show others how these are not necessary components – being unable to see that they are not. You will not work to show yourself that this is not true.

      You would cleanse our society of those who don’t agree with you – but the thing is – they do agree with you. They too believe in scarcity. Cleanse them from the face of the earth, and it will be very little time later before you are brought under the microcope because you do not have a political lobby to defend you and you are perceived as a threat – perhaps because of what you say or what you do. History is full of such examples.

      There is evidence coming out of various prisons that are using meditation to see if it affects the behaviors of the most violent in the prison population. The benefits are undeniable according to the wardens who show statistical evidence of significant reductions in “reportable” behaviors, increased observance of empathy for others, increased volunteering to help their inmates and prison staff. These people are lifers who used violence to express their anger and frustration, but because of meditation, have come to terms with what they have done to themselves and their victims You see, as we do to others, there is always an amplified consequence in our own lives.

      There is evidence coming out of inner city schools that instituted meditation programs as part of the daily routine. Bullying stopped. Gangs who used to hang around, left the school area. Grades went up. Teachers began enjoying their jobs again. The school became a community and divisions seemed to disappear. There was no longer the “popular” kids clique. Mutual respect among all was obvious.

      There is evidence coming out of the offices of social workers who brought people in to teach prostitutes how to meditate. They began to feel safer while on the job – more able to determine which clients to accept and which to reject. They began looking for alternative “careers”. This was only with the addition of meditation. It didn’t even involve teaching these girls how to literally create their realities.

      If we can tell people HOW to get to the point where we are ready to begin a moneyless society, we can achieve it. It will simply make sense.

      Reply to Gail
      1. chris posted the following on November 6, 2011 at 11:04 am.

         gail, excuse me for being the proverbial doubting thomas but if more than a few of you are currently doing this how come we have a world in far more chaos that even 25 years ago. I would beleve it if I saw more of the effect you beleive you see. If the notion is that evil people are then repelled by you and thier direction onto another, are we then really solving our problems? if this would work wouldn t then robert be able to get dave 10 time the value of the stuff he threw away from the housing people. I would not be ever looking for handouts from other people in sympathy, I would like to get stolen property back from theieves and government people who are secondary thieves, that would be results

         Reply to chris

I think there is too much talk of Hitler here. Ctrl + F, hitler finds 20 instances. I don’t think we need another Hitler or any other mad leader, we just need to work together to solve our problems.

Cheers,

Bob
***

1. chris posted the following on November 5, 2011 at 9:15 pm.

   well, now you are making some break through, understanding the problem is half way to a solution. you have acted in a manner not in the best interst with this housing situation, but all is not lost, now, whales and the us are two separate entities politically deriving their being from two diverse rising, now, how in the world is it then that a vile sub orginazation as a housing authority exist there and the same tries to operate likewise in the united states, from where does this emanate from that is what has to be addressed and then mortally attacked. there is a site named free keene new hampshire, one man has been addressing that issue there, if fact i believe he may be in jail at the present on the issue, marc stevens, who in my opinion is the foremost authority in the united states on law is assisting in that fight his site can be found on you tube also, your point indicates without a doubt that the entity you yielded to has nothing to do with the government of whales than the units here have to do with the government here. If the dealing is with some foreign body, where do they get there power imposing there desires on a free and independent people. you have a claim against those indidivuals they have no protection from claims and you need to do some action against them, if nothing more initially as to locate where they live and get pictures and file a claim internaionally against their person and property and give them a claim affadavit. if the people in that area are apprised of the issue there have to be anumber of people who will endorse you affidavit. Government people are slaves of the illuminati, if a force is presented to them they will in time yield, recently in californiz within the last 3 weeks 8 county sheriffs have taken sides with the people and against the governemnt, and will no longer do the bidding of the government in those victimless crimes. what a person acquires for themselves is no business of a government entity or any other fictional creation, or the operatives of the same. I would list the complaint as they were casing the property for further theft at a later time.

   Reply to chris
2. chris posted the following on November 5, 2011 at 9:21 pm.

   i think the thought is that because the dictator form of government is more efficient at getting things accomplished and that there is so much that needs to be done, that the name is used in place of dictator for efficiency, not that any one wants to pick up the historical bad vibes emitted from that time. If you do want to change things you have to realize you will not do it by trying to convince those who oppress that they are evil and are doing wrong, the definition of a socio-path is in fact that they believe they are the benefactor of their oppressed, even when they kill them. dialogue is nearly a waste of time, it is somethime beneficial as other onlooker gain infomation

   Reply to chris

There is a book called “Peace Pilgrim”. It is available for free or with a donation (which is used to publish books and offer them for free to those who cannot pay).

A non-religious retired woman was reading the words of Jesus, when she wondered if what he said was true. Can we go out into the world with no worldly goods and survive in a pleasurable way. Wanting to test the thesis, she headed out to the Appalachin trail one spring morning with only a toothbrush, a pen, some envelopes, and two stamps. That fall, she knew that it was true.

The followiing spring, she left her home and never returned. She travelled around the country talking about the power of peace. She did that for more than 30 years – carrying nothing more than the barest essentials that she stored in two pockets that she sewed onto her shirt.

she ate when she was offered food and accepted a bed when it was offered. When these things weren’t offered, she ate berries and slept under the stars – which she came to prefer. She beame known as the Peace Pilgrim and was soon known simply as Peace. Soon she was in-demand, and was asked to speak in many, many places.

Her mission was to show people how powerful they are through the power of peace.

My mission is to show peole how they can have what they want when they want it.

Both use the same principle.

If you follow the steps I offer, whatever you want will appear – whether you are willing to pay for it or you want it to come to you free. That’s how it works. We do not have to come together to meditate on what we personally want. In fact, that would be counter-productive. If you already bought it, then it will appear anyhow. Your aggressive and insulting question is unnecessary and counter-productive to finding a solution for a moneyless society.

YOU are the god of YOUR reality — we are not. YOU are responsible for what you have or do not have — we are not. You have a responsibility to yourself that no one else has. If you do not have something that you want – even if you think that it doesn’t exist any more, then that is only evidence that you don’t want it enough to create it. That’s not MY problem. It is clearly YOURS though. There is a reality where we are equal and all of your hostility is wasted on everyone but you.

You can criticize and belittle me all you want, but that doesn’t bring anything to you – nor is it possible to hurt me because in MY reality, you are pretty irrelevant. My interest is in getting a message about science-based facts out to as many as possible, not defending myself against your ignorance. The message wasn’t even meant for you, but your reply gives me another opportunity to clear up confusion for others who may read this.

In fact, if you believe that what you want won’t appear, it won’t. You have to keep an open mind if you want to manifest your desires. Only this will ALLOW it to appear. You don’t even have to beleive it. Just keep an open mind as you follow a few simple steps.

Group meditation is different than personal reality creation. It’s difference because it works on a group level. It works because it appeals to the want of the group. A group meditating in peace do not want to be joined by those who do not believe in the possibility of peace, though it makes no difference whether you do or not. Those people like you (now) will not be able to access the place / feelings that allow peace to appear. It’s quite unlikely that they would want to waste their time participating in something that they think is a waste of time. In fact, they would probably so look down their noses at those like me that they will be outside telling people to laugh at those who have scientific evidence that proves that we are bringing forth the very things that you are fighting against while you are loudly professing (without evidence) that your idea is better.

But – to touch upon your core objection – the facts are there. Legitimate scientists have proven it. So your scoffing does no harm to me. It only harms you. I do not CHOOSE to give you power over my reality – or in it for that matter.

YOU have the right to design any life that you want. THAT is YOUR choice. You can live in as angry and mean world as you want. You can’t harm me because I have the right to design the life that I want and you have no power in my dimension because “I” am the god of MY reality, just as YOU are the god of YOURS.

1. Robert Howes posted the following on November 6, 2011 at 7:49 am.

   Gail,

   What was all that about? Why are you so angry? I think you are reading into what I am saying a whole lot of negativity that simply is not there. You are leaving me confused. I can sort out what I want for myself, but I want world peace for everyone. Money gets in the way of peace because war is profitable. War will not be profitable in a moneyless world. It will be seen as a terrible thing by everyone. You seem to be projecting your anger onto me for some reason. I suggest you read what I say with a bit more charity and stop seeing me as an enemy. I am not your enemy. I am not anyone’s enemy. I would not have had Gadaffi killed, for instance.

   Cheers,

   Bob
   ***

   Reply to Robert Howes

Time check in UK right now… 17:11

The following video says that the world is deterministic. Einstein believed in it. Thus the birth of a so called criminal can be predicted and therefore a criminal cannot be bad. However the video also says Einstein was wrong. Quantum mechanics says there is uncertainty and you cannot predict it. Einstein said god does not play dice. I agree with Einstein. Quantum mechanics says you cannot predict it. That does not mean existence of absolute predictability is wrong. We cannot predict because we do not have the technology to do so. We use probability only when we fail to do it accurately. Quantum mechanics is all about probability.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFLR5vNKiSw&feature=related

Thus good and bad words cannot exist. These words were created by people in power to control rest of us. In nature nothing can be good or bad. We do not say – apple is good and orange is bad, dog is good and cat is bad, rain is bad and sunshine is good. We have accepted the nature just the way it is. So we should not say Mr. X is good and Mr. Y is bad. We must accept them as they are. We are all product of nature. Thus there is a need and purpose for every kind of people. Don’t feel bad and frustrated, and waste your energy, and the calmness that you have acquired through meditation.

Nature has another interesting law – {birth process, maturity process, death process}. For everything in this universe this law is valid. Imperialism was born, matured, and then died. We all take birth, make our contributions, and then die. The banks (money) were there all along for more than 2000 years. They have evolved into central banks and capitalism now. It is time for money to enter its death process. The capitalism has shown us the possibility of moneyless economy. It is difficult to predict when and how it will happen. But the owners of central banks will not give up its power so easily without a violent war to complete the death process for money.

1. Robert Howes posted the following on November 6, 2011 at 3:47 pm.

   Hi Subhendu,

   So what is the next step?

   Cheers,

   Bob
   ***

   Reply to Robert Howes

The quality of this thread become very doubtfull.
Gail [I speak with much experience] , dont waste your energy explaining anything to Bob, he will not accept anything that is not in his beleif system, when he is forced to acknowledge truth , he grudgingly admits it but the next day he reverts back to his usual ignorance. As far as intelleget, logical debate goes Bob is a complete time waster. His motive for being of sites that allude to socialism or moneyfree world is to promote his business idea for a co-op, that in his imagination will spread global and helrald in world socialism…. On many sites he will write that a moneyfree world is impossible. Gail some people do not respond to logic and its a complete waste of time to interact with them.

1. Danny Chau posted the following on November 7, 2011 at 3:04 am.

   Hi Nick,

   I agree with your eugenicist view on the world’s population totally. But I would ask everyone here to be loving and be peaceful, as we are spirit souls all on the same journey to mature our consciousness, no one is above nor below another. I see that everyone has the potential to change and to grow no matter how stubborn one may ‘seem’ be, don’t forget that we’re all too still growing and I too would love others to give me ‘patience’ and ‘time’ to mature in my own time.

   I ‘see’ that everyone here is on the same mission, and that is to create the next shift in paradigm, and this is a moneyless society. I ‘see’ that each one here is already ‘contributed’ to the ‘idea’ of this up and coming ‘golden age’ for humanity, because we are intrinsically linked in more way most of our scientist has yet to realize or dare to admit. The very fact that no matter who says what, it is the simple fact that there is more and more people are coming to the same ideal and realization that our current economic model is but to fail as it is no longer serving it’s purpose. We are after all do operate on a collective unity consciousness, only it is now more visible than in our previous history, just instead of the fear of the past we’re now coming into the light, but we are still moving forward and upward as a species together in unison.

   The momentum is now well underway, I suggest you all to have more patience and DO believe and DO project how our world would be as we ARE the creator and the architect of our ‘reality’. I suggest we all to let go of our struggles with our ego-ic mind and to accept all a part of the whole which make up the collective we know as humanity. We do need to first to ‘be’ the ‘change’ that we wanted to ‘be’, and if your interest for a moneyless society is for the betterment for all of humanity, then you are already manifesting the love for all humanity, I’m sure it is not difficult to go the next step to accept people as they are and allow them time to grow, just as we too need this ‘space’ for our own growth.

   Love and light to you all. Namaste

   Reply to Danny Chau
   1. Subhendu Das posted the following on November 7, 2011 at 9:44 pm.

      Namaste Danny Chau,

      You must have some friends from India. Namaste is the informal version of Namaskar. I am from Calcutta area of India, which is West Bengal. East Bengal has become Bangladesh now. Namaskar is used as a common greeting in West Bengal and in Calcutta (Now Kolkata). The word is usually pronounced with two palms touching, held near chest, and with a slight bow.

      Namskar = Namo + Swa + Akar. It is a Sanskrit word. Namo = I bow to you. Swa = God or He or Him. Akar = shape.

      I bow to god who has taken your shape. We are all part of god. That is same as god is inside all of us. That is what Indian philosophy is all about. So God is in your body and I pray to you to honor Him.

      But Indians have forgot these values. Capitalism will probably give the last blow to destroy all values of India.

      Namaskar,
      Subhendu Das

      Reply to Subhendu Das
2. Robert Howes posted the following on November 7, 2011 at 3:55 am.

   Nick,

   If you are going to spread lies about me, please provide links to where I have said a moneyfree world is impossible, for instance. A moneyfree world is what I have been advocating for the last fifty years or more. No-one would listen to such crazy talk in 1960. Few do now, but i was one of the pioneers of such thinking. So please keep your lies to yourself.
   ***
   By the way, I do not have a belief system. I am ready to take on new ideas any time. I take Gail seriously and I do not understand why you or she might think otherwise. She could be right, she could be wrong, who knows? Time will tell.

   Cheers,

   Bob
   ***

   Reply to Robert Howes
   1. Danny Chau posted the following on November 7, 2011 at 4:05 am.

      Hi Bob,

      As you said it here, you are a poineer and your thoughts has instigated the ‘moneyless’ movement along with many who has the same idea, rest at that, you don’t need anyone to ‘confirm’ your believe. I suggest to take ‘any’ attack with a pinch of salt and to forgive all acts of ‘unconsciousness’, for we are all on same path of growth together.

      I believe in positive energy of exchange and in time all will mature and would respond with love and respect to all.

      Just to let you know I appreciate the existence of this blog, as to me this is the evidence of the change in our consciousness.

      Best,
      Danny

      Reply to Danny Chau
   2. Subhendu Das posted the following on November 8, 2011 at 2:05 pm.

      Bob,

      You said you got the idea of moneyless economy (MLE) around 1960. I thought the idea originated in 1986 from the Star Trek movie. I got the idea (on 2009) independently while researching on central bank. Then I found it was already well known on the internet. I felt little sad, but this happened to me many times in the past. Eventually I have created a law of conservation of memory – you cannot invent anything, you can only transform other existing ideas to a new format. Example – Wheels, Engine, Chassis all put together produced a car. But the components were already invented before car.

      Would you please let me know about the details on how you got the idea around that time in 1960? Could you remember any links to any kind of paper, report, TV program etc. that talked about MLE around or before that time? What would be the oldest origin of the MLE? Does anyone know about the history of MLE?

      Reply to Subhendu Das
      1. Robert Howes posted the following on November 8, 2011 at 2:48 pm.

         Hi subhendu,

         I read a number of my father’s books, like the Age of Reason by Tom Paine, and I was poor and wondered why some are poor and others rich, and I came to the conclusion that money makes us poor. Money makes the world a poorer place. It makes very few rich and only in certain ways. As I got older and became a motor mechanic I saw that cars were made to rust away, and reasoned this was so they could sell more cars. So money was to blame for this stupidity. There are so many instances of such money stupidity. But money is now needed to be used to pay our way out of this madness. Without wise use of all resources including money we will not succeed in uniting the people, and a divided people is a conquered people. I don’t properly remember my thinking when I was 12 in 1960, but it was very different from everyone around me, and it was in flux and still is. I think Robert Owen got his ideas from Paine, the same as I did. Only Owen did not admit it. But Paine did not speak of a moneyless economy, that was a conclusion I came to on my own.

         Cheers,

         Bob
         ***

         Reply to Robert Howes

Yes Bob, I also want a quick action. But I cannot support anyone or any activity with money. I need money for my own survival. I cannot physically go and join Occupy movement (OWS). I tried their website but it is difficult to track things there, it appears.

It seems you have some ideas that you want to take action on. Please let us know what you have in mind. I am ready to join you in whatever way I can.

(1) My idea is to join all websites of OWS of all countries and spread the ideas of MLE (Moneyless Economy). Start discussing one person at a time and convince them. Pursue them to investigate the FAQ on MLE. Address their issues one item at a time. I am doing this also.

(2) We can also help OWS to see that the city and police do not go against them and remove them from their camps. It is very important to help them to survive the winter period. I think one sub group in each OWS place should focus on cleanup activity of the land they are occupying. Creating a dirty and unhygienic environment giving the opportunity to remove them. The Oakland, California case is an example.

(3) The Oakland movement did one very good thing to protest. They created city wide strike. We can create also such strikes at least once per month in all cities where OWS is active.

(4) We should also talk to all members of the parliament or congress and educate them about the central bank. I believe that 90% of the politicians do not know the central bank and its activities. If they can be organized then the OWS may become successful.

(5) We may also focus a specific country, like Greece, Libya, Egypt, Ireland etc. Put our all energy on that country to change it. MLE is not known very well. Resource based economy (RBE) is more well known. But I think RBE is a ploy to destroy MLE movement.

(6) As you suggested we can do something to get financial support for OWS. We may hire a fund raiser to acquire monetary help. This is necessary. How long these people can survive on their own?

1. Danny Chau posted the following on November 7, 2011 at 8:41 pm.

   I’m in the process myself, I widely spread my belief in the moneyless society – first as an idea to most whom are trapped in mind that there is no better alternative. It is until the awareness of the vast majority who can ‘see’ that they’re nothing but ‘slaves’ who scrabbles for a ‘wage’ that can hardly keep them going for a month, as all the costs were ‘designed’ to keep them at bay, so as long most thinks that they are ‘trapped’, they WILL BE.

   I’m a believer of our innate connection via the ‘morphic field’, this WILL grow in momentum and will eventually has the opposing effect of ‘mass hysteria’ to ‘mass awakening’. Look around our world right now, the Zeitgeist movement, the Disclosure Project and many many more groups and organizations has sprung up all over the planet, all for what? CHANGE… to me this IS the writing on the WALL, we are witnessing the very CHANGE is now taken place and gathering speed.

   I can tell you that we will ‘see’ the change within our lifetime (at least I know I will).

   Reply to Danny Chau

to Chris the answer is better management , when we leave management to capital economics we are doomed…… look you mention petrol…. where I live in England it is cheaper to drive into town than it is to use public transport….. how crazy is that ? wheres the economics in that?. Again I repeat there is no population problem only bad management………..sure places get overcrowded but why ? because of capital economic nessesity. People go where the money is, where they hope to suceed financialy.
Nearly every developt nation has a falling population, many countrys like singapore, australia, taiwan are trying to persuade their citizens to have more babys….madness , money makes us crazy…. well lets give all our money to bob and make him emperor

1. chris posted the following on November 8, 2011 at 10:01 pm.

   I agree, the monied elete are terrible managers of assets, but other than the individual, you and I and the other individuals no other entity has the ability to rightfully watch the assets of the earth. I do still believe we have overgrazed the earth and that resources as far a restorable resources are severely strained. not all poverty is caued by that quite a bit is by poor distribution process but some is by overgrazing

   Reply to chris

firstly i am sorry for bringing down the quality of a quality discussion board. I will no longer talk about Bob , the facts are here on the internet for anyone bothered to find out about Bob.
More important is what we can do NOW to bring the moneyfree debate into real time and space.
at this moment the Occupy movement has spread to all continents of the world, and is permeated by the moneyfree movement . I urge all of you to give the Occupy movement your support , not just on the internet but in real time. also the Anonymous movement, which itself is heavily involved not only in the Occupy movement but also in the moneyfree movement is growing and will also benefit form your support.
since this discussion started the social movement has changed radiccally and the moneyfree movement has grown enormously, the possibility of the moneyfree movement to go mainstream is fast becoming a reality.
Please show your support for these movements and help bring this discussion into real time and space.

1. Robert Howes posted the following on November 9, 2011 at 4:58 am.

   Nick,

   You cannot tell the difference between me asking people to give me their money and me asking them to invest in their own futures. And if I had asked anyone to give me their money do you think they would do so. I’m not so foolish as to think they would. Unfortunately, so far, too few are investing in their own futures in any meaningful collective way that I have suggested. I have invested in my own future by buying land and properties and tractors and equipment, and I’m suggesting others do the same for themselves. That is not giving me their money is it? All this certainly is on the Internet in the WSM forum and many other places, and anyone who understands plain English will see that I am urging other to do what I am doing but collectively, in their own regions, or here collectively with me. I will help them financially in any way that I can. I will help them get rich if they want as I have done so (to a limited extent) and as I helped my friend Mike Sosner to do (to a less limited extent). In other words Mike has done better than me and that is because I spend too much time at the computer, as I am doing right now.

   Cheers everyone,

   Bob
   ***

   Reply to Robert Howes

Subhendu,

I guess you have your tongue in your cheek. However, just in case you are serious, we need space to grow our food and also trees to take carbon out of the atmosphere (three acres each)(21 billion acres total)and even without that we need enough room to lie down.

Cheers,

Bob
***

1. Subhendu Das posted the following on November 9, 2011 at 9:56 am.

   FAQ: Do we have to manage resources in MLE?

   It seems this question has become a problem area for MLE. Everybody is asking this question and we are getting distracted. I answered the question in the following way. Let me know if it works.

   Yes, we have to always manage our resources, just like we are doing it now.

   At present, if one million rich people try to buy corporate jets, they may not get it. They will have to wait in line for the manufacturers to produce them. Same thing will happen in the MLE also. If everybody wants something that is scarce, then we have to wait in line.

   However, in MLE our philosophy and psychology will change. Since everything will be free, we may not try to get them as we are doing now. There will be no special economic or status symbols attached to corporate jets or luxury cars etc. Because anyone can have them, at any time, and they will be all free. So we will no longer remain a consumer society. Nobody will continuously advertise on the TV to go and buy something. We will buy only what we need.

   As a result of changes in our attitudes, the demand for our resources will also change. Many resources which are scarce now can become abundant again. On the other hand, many things we cannot produce now, because of scarce manufacturing facilities. That will be gone too in MLE. We can start a duplicate factory, hire more people, buy capital assets free, and start to manufacture there. Also anyone will be able to start producing things we need. There will be no need to wait for banks to loan you money. There will be no need to convince venture capital companies for your patented ideas.

   The environment in MLE will change. If it is cube now, it will become a sphere then. The ideas that are valid in a cube will not work in a sphere. It will not be a good idea to extrapolate present problems and constraints to a new environment. That will not work and will create confusions.

   Reply to Subhendu Das

subhendue , yess that is way far off, because, you not only need area to grow food that land needs to lay fallow for at least every 3rd year and then other land needs to take its place, when disaster strikes, land in other areas need to take the place of the devastated area to minimize effect, already the stratosphere is suffering to a minor degree and probablly less than 15 % of the worlds population have airconditoning, probably can never accommodate even 25% of the current population without major devastation to quality of all life on planet. if 50% of the population began using auto transportaion the heat from exhaust could be devastating, not to considering the consequences of paving the necessary roads, the space the people stand is nothing compared to the house footprint on the planet. if ther are to be recreation areas etc addition area far more in consequences are requred. further as the seas are nearly overfished and species are eliminated food supplies would be in short demand. oil while somewhat pelentiful, as more demand it will be diminished moreso.

1. Subhendu Das posted the following on November 10, 2011 at 1:00 pm.

   Chris,

   Sometimes we feel lost when we think about 7 billion population. I tried to give the opposite impression when I said everybody does not even fill up a country of size Iran. At present we can fit 90 Irans in the world. Per person we can have 229 sq ft of land (= 57,491,000 sq. mi/7 billion).

   I think per person based analysis is probably wrong. I cannot point out exactly what is wrong, but somehow does not seem to be right. We are all interacting simultaneously, always together, physically and mentally. We are never isolated. Community approach has evolved and should continue in future also.

   When India had 500 million people everybody in the world thought that the country would starve to death. Today India has three times the population and it is exporting food. If you travel across India you will find vast stretches of land, miles after miles, wherever you look, are empty.

   Israel was almost a barren land but now it has become green and self-sufficient in food production. Investors are buying lands in Africa for mass scale food production to feed the world. Los Angeles was almost a desert 50 years back, now probably 30 million people are living around the area, and it is quite green. Water comes 500 miles away from San Francisco. China is populating the occupied Tibet, snow covered and deserted, by sending millions of Chinese by newly developed train lines.

   People have produced food in almost all types of land all over the world. I am not sure if we have to think about food shortage problems. After all we are not planning to abandon everything we have created during capitalism. We will build on it under the completely democratic MLE system.

   We do not have food shortage now, why do we think we will have in future? The shortage that we see now are man made and are required for the survival of capitalism.

   Reply to Subhendu Das
   1. chris posted the following on November 11, 2011 at 8:33 am.

      well, 200 sq foot barely makes a good size bedroom, you make my point clearly thanks

      Reply to chris

Nick,

Glad to see you are getting to where I was in my thinking in 1971. The three acres each is for fuel as well as food. As vegans we only need a fifth of an acre each. Meat eaters need far more. One cow needs an acre, one horse needs two and a half acres. Not saying anyone should eat a horse. Just for comparison. I was putting the idea of living underground back, as I say, in 1971, but there were few takers. Only one in fact, Dave Graham’s son Simon who was, I think, 14 at the time. So I modified my thinking as I do every time I run up against reality. I now support a building style that is part over ground and part underground. That keeps everyone happy. To change the world we have to have a plan that does that, keeps everyone happy. And we have to facilitate the change, in as many ways as we can think of.

Cheers,

Bob
***

The word, “ my “ is a possessive! it implies it belongs to me. According to Bob I have come around to “his “way of thinking. I don’t believe a practical , logical idea like building underground actually can belong to one person. Interesting enough that Bob in his realm of writing has never mentioned building underground before, then, as soon as someone mentions it, its his idea [lol].
As recent as the beginning of this year Bob was arguing that a moneyfree world will create over population! His logic being that people have small familys because they cant afford big familys and as socialism would bring about an abundance of goods, people would breed more. Despite contrary evidence that poverty and scarcity creates larger familys and the more affluent [greater access to goods and services] a society is the smaller the family.
Victim of myopic thinking, “Bobs” idea that we need 1 and a half acres of land just for fuel per person is just as ridiculous as his idea that creating a moneyfree society will create a population explosion. Most of the human inhabitants of the world live in hot and temperate climates and do not need the amount of fuel as those living in a cold climate such as ~Wales. BUT more importantly, we have at our disposal technology which means we don’t have to sit around carbon fires to keep warm , wind power , solar power and much more free energy technology will become available when we have kicked capitalism into the bucket. Also with a little imagination we don’t need 1 and acres each to feed ourselves , food growth can be layered and stacked, we can grow crop literally above other crops giving us even more room for wild habitat and other life forms [probably Bobs idea too]
Bob you keep asking me how im getting on with the strike project, i think you keep asking me this as a way of belittling me and my efforts and to some how prove that you are better than me. Bob I rarely indulge in navel gazing and do not plague forum members with continual references about myself and what I am doing……….. i.e. how im chopping wood and fixing my tractor etc etc etc you are so so self indulgent in your writings.
You know ,cos i told you that the reason i am helping promote strike 2012 is to use it as a vehicle to promote a moneyfree world, and since you ask @strike2012 [i am the account holder] has nearly 21,000 followers, thats 21,000 people and organizations i have reached out to in the last 10 months. I m also involved and supportive of the anonymous and occupy movements. And maybe next year i will move onto and grow into other projects.
Bob you are over 60 you have achieved absolutely nothing with your life , you sold most of your life to the work place and now occupy a tiny piece of land struggling to be self sufficient, spending years trying unsuccessfully to start a co-op which in your insanity believe will take over the world. You are a sad , lonely bullshitting old bugger who will die a lonely death.

1. Robert Howes posted the following on November 11, 2011 at 4:52 am.

   Nice to hear from you Nick. I asked you about the strike thing because I genuinely wanted to know how it is going. I am glad you are getting a good response to it. And I am glad the occupy thing is going well. All these expressions of a desire for change are good. However, until we combine our talents in ways that will support us without having to go to capitalists continually to have our needs met we are not much further along. You might fondly believe that the people can simply take over capitalist farms and factories and everything will be well in the world. But wishing does not make it so. It only could make it so if the overwhelming majority of people in the world wished it at the same time and organised for it. But that is unlikely in the extreme without organising first around other things that people need, like food and fuel. And Nick, fuel might be more important in colder countries but it is also needed in hot countries too. Not just for air conditioning either but for powering the machinery to we all need, unless you want us all to go back to muscle power, along of course with wind and water power. And I did not say a moneyless economy will cause bigger families, I merely suggested the possibility. Moneylessness does not automatically solve every problem. We will see. I merely like to look at all the things that could go wrong and see if we can think of ways around problems before they arise. You seem to think I am against moneylessness. It is what has been driving me all these years. If I had only thought of getting rich I would be a lot richer now. I don’t see the point of you attacking me on every forum all the time. You don’t know me. We have never met. So why don’t you just lay off? Do your own thing. Leave me to do mine. I think we should have a vote. All those who think it is okay for Nick to keep attacking me please say so. Those who disagree please tell him to stop.

   Cheers,

   Bob
   ***

   Reply to Robert Howes
   1. chris posted the following on November 12, 2011 at 9:20 pm.

      robert i, believe your belief is somewhat more objective here, if any change occurs you have to present that which middle income productive people will see as acceptable to them. the wealthy will never accept any change to what they see as their cash cow, you can count them out of the picture, the lower element have nothing to offer nor for the most part the intelligence to accept any change. if left to a vote they will sell the vote for a hand full of beans. certain ly every one is aware the g -8 summits, g-20 summits etc, are the monied elete, they are your objective -the enemy. it is dealing with them that you are aiming for. I believe most working persons would be open to change to cause justice to occur throughout the system they are oppressed by. not lawyers, banker, financiers, insurance industry etc, will oppose change, but sometimes a carrrier of news can break through a system and move things in the proper direction. In the united states sometimes a politician will try a public meeting, now what they do is have it mid day when working people cannot attend, of course unless they take off work. I ve done that to their consternation,. they do not like real issues, and issues of justice will inflame them ,, but that is good to give a good example of an issue to thrust forward is: compel state to reimburse for all burglary theft, vandalism, etc, since police reward themselves with stolen property and the victim is left damaged. Now how can they present to the public they are against justice? you have them in a corner, further you would then compel police to effect a job they have neglected for years. the reason lawyers like crime is it provides them with work, this is your enemy, if the police have to effect their job, it puts attorneys out of work and you are starting to effect your change. as the attorneys have to find productive work you will in time possibly gain an ally. it would still take years even if thousands would start this now. but better late than never

      Reply to chris
      1. Robert Howes posted the following on November 13, 2011 at 6:26 am.

         Chris,

         Thank you for understanding what I am saying, not everyone can see it. Capitalists need workers more than workers need capitalists or capitalism. Workers can create a moneyless world but there is no actual organisation yet as a vehicle for that change. This is what I hope to create, but I cannot do it alone. I will do what I can but no-one should wait for me, just the same as no-one should wait for the overwhelming majority of workers to become socialists the way the Socialist Party (of great Britain) is waiting for.
         ***
         I urge you all to do your own thing. Get involved. It is no crime to make money in this money system, but put it to good use. The best use is in bringing about a money-less, money-free or simply a free system in which we can all prosper.

         Cheers,

         Bob
         ***

         Reply to Robert Howes
      2. chris posted the following on November 20, 2011 at 3:34 pm.

         there may be a method of achieving that, the primary move should be to get governement entities to have open public meetings, allow them some amount of freedom initially, then later hit them with truth and findings, i ll elaborate more at some future time

         Reply to chris
2. chris posted the following on November 11, 2011 at 8:27 am.

   nick, but isn t your objective to die penniless like bob

   Reply to chris

Solving the housing problem:
Hope this is not confusing.

EARTH:
Surface area of earth = 57,491,000 sq. mi.
In sq. ft this is equal to = 1.6 * (10 ^ 15) sq. ft
Population = 7 billions = 7*(10^12)

ONE BUILDING:
Floors = 100
Homes per floor = 25
Sq. ft per home = 4000
People per home = 4
Total people per building = 4*25*100=10,000 = 10^4

ONE HOUSING UNIT:
Give some extra land for parks, roads, business units, shopping areas etc.
One building = 25*4000 = 100,000 sq ft. of land on earth
Extra land = 4*100,000 = 400,000 sq ft.

RESULT:
Thus 400,000 sq. ft accommodate 10,000 people.

WHAT FRACTION USED:
To accommodate 7 billion we need = 7*(10^12)/(10^4) = 7*(10^8) housing units.
Land required = 400,000*7*(10^8) = 2.8 *(10^14) sq ft.
Fraction of the earth used =[2.8*(10^14)]/[1.6*(10^15)] = 17.5 percent

THE FACTORS THAT YOU CAN CONTROL:
Square feet per homes (4000), Extra land (4), number of floors (100)
The example shows that it is possible to house everybody in 10% of the land on earth.

Let me know if you find anything wrong in my calculations.

CAUTION:
Remember, in Money-less economy (MLE) everybody is free to build their own homes in their own way. Government should not create such a plan as discussed in this post. Since homes will not have any status symbol in MLE, people may want to build just enough for them. Thus the land requirements can significantly change. This calculation is to console people who are worried about the housing feasibility for all of us.

1. Robert Howes posted the following on November 12, 2011 at 5:16 am.

   Subhendu,

   At present there are about 266,918 square feet per person on the land and twice as much on the sea. So let us say half the land should be left wild and half cultivated and/or built on, 133,459 square feet each. So that is how much land we can use for a variety of uses per person. No need for high rise at all, if we distribute ourselves equally over the globe. No need for more than five levels. Only after five levels do we need elevators. Up to five levels we can use stairs or ramps. Ramps are better for wheels of various sorts. Ramps are better long and shallow, so we need to build long rather than high. A long building has another advantage that we can take advantage of, that it can be used to close off an area of land where we grow our food. We can encircle an area of land equal to the needs of the occupants of the building and this will protect the land from the animals that would otherwise feed on our food crop plants or cause other problems to those tending the crops (such as tigers and snakes). We can clear the land of such creatures without harming them (ahimsa) before starting to use the land once the building is complete. The animals can continue living in the larger area of land outside the food crop zone.
   ***
   You say anyone can build their homes in their own way, but I would question this. we do not want inferior homes like those in Turkey that are right now lying on the bodies of the dead that were crushed by them. We need homes that do not kill us. There are simple ways to build safe homes but there would have to be some kind of control to make sure homes were built to certain standards. Don’t you agree? Also, by building in the way I suggest we can house everyone very well on less than one percent of the land we use, which is only half the total land.
   ***
   I think your figure for the surface area of the Earth is wrong. I get 201,061,932, almost four times what you get. I used the equation 4pir2 (4 times pi times radius squared) And since your starting point seems to be incorrect I have not looked intently at the rest of it. In your system, if we have tower blocks (with some food grown vertically) the bulk of the food would presumably be grown in fields as it is now. How would you protect the crops and the workers?
   ***
   Please check my figures for mistakes.

   Cheers,

   Bob
   ***

   Reply to Robert Howes

Bob , thank you very much for the condracending, totally unnessersary lecture on the need to get ourselves organised. Now even those of very limited intellegence will surmise from my posts that i am involved in organisation and have little need for a lecture of the need for organization….Wake UP BOB , its YOU who needs a lecture about the need for organization, ITS YOU that wont work with other people , ITS YOU that doest do anything apart from trying to propergate your co-op collective overtakeing the world idea, and although years have past unfruitfull for you and no one has joined you………yet you still refuse to help other organizations, more often than not on the grounds that YOUR idea is better.
Get a life BOB, get real , look in the mirror!

Bob:

Land surface area of Earth:
I did not compute the land data I used. I took it from the Internet.
Following sites show almost the same number:

http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/8o.html
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/DanielChen.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_outlying_territories_by_total_area

Let me know if there are any other problems.
Sorry, I forgot to collect the source first time.

Bob , i said before you are waste of time becuase you do not listen. You just sent a me a post lecturing me on the need to get organised, you addressed that post to me. And now you are saying you were writing it to the other members. what is it with you ?
And why have you failed yourself in any attemp to organise? yet you decide we are in the need for lecturing on the subject?
I have never been able to have a proper debate with you becuase you always deny that what you said was what you said, or/and you pretend what you said had a different meaning.
2 of the outstanding attributes of most people in the money free movement is their alliance to the truth and their ability to accept the responsibilitys of the actions.
you fail miserable on both these fronts.
you cant even take resposibilty for what you say!
You are an embarrassement to the moneyfree movement.
You lie that when i first come on the wsm forum i started to attack you. when you returned to the WSM forum early this year I had been a member for 7 bloody years and the rest of what you write is pure fantasy.
you were attacked for 2 reasons
the biggest reason is you wasted peoples time. many good people would spend so much time patiently explaining things to you [like to a small child]. AND then you would totally ignore it , like you never heard or read what they said. You were wasting our time
Secondly you were attacked cos much of what you said was rubbish
Bob and you are missing the point strike2012 can not fail , myself alone have already spread the moneyfree idea out to 21,000 people accross the globe…. how can that be deem a failure , to me and to logic coming to a socialist reality dictates that first we need the numbers, we need people to start thinking and desiring socialism..
how many people are you turning on to socialism ..you have probally turned more people off socialism than you have on to it.

1. Subhendu Das posted the following on November 12, 2011 at 9:18 pm.

   Nick,

   Is money-less economy (MLE) same as socialism?

   I do not know the definition of socialism. I did not live in a communist country also. What are the major features of socialism? How MLE and socialism are similar? What are their differences?

   Reply to Subhendu Das
   1. Robert Howes posted the following on November 13, 2011 at 11:51 am.

      Subhendu,

      Since Nick hasn’t replied to you I will answer you. Yes, the type of socialism of the WSM/SPGB is the same as MLE/RBE. Why not join the WSM forum and debate it there? Go to:

      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WSM_Forum/

      See you there maybe.

      Cheers,

      Bob
      ***

      Reply to Robert Howes
      1. Subhendu Das posted the following on November 15, 2011 at 11:25 pm.

         Bob,

         I tried to join WSM, but it did not work.
         I may have some registration problem with Yahoo.

         I will try later again.

         Reply to Subhendu Das

Bob what you believe you do is not the point.
what is the point is [to me] that in the last few days , you addressed a post specificly to me, specificly in response to one of my posts..lecturing me on the need to organize, and when i pull you up on the obvios fact i dont need that lecture, you then cant even admit that the post was aimed at me but say it was aimed at other members.
futher in your next post you tell other members that as soon as i joined the wsm forum i started attacking you, which is a blatatant lie and you dont mention why you were being attacked [ie, every thread you joined you would twist around into an argument for your business co-op]. You failed to admit that I along with other long term members of the wsm forum actually left the forum cos we just coulnt stand the continual spamming from you on your desire to get people into your co-op idea. You also havnt mention that you had been on the wsm forum, as well as the world in common forum a few years previosly and had to leave both those forums becuase you had upset so many people.
Further why havnt you apolagised to me for address a post to me lecturing me on something i obviosly dont need to read? why havnt you apolagised to lying about me ? Why havnt you apolagised about you condersending post to me that congratulate me on coming round to YOUR[???] way of thinking?

1. Robert Howes posted the following on November 13, 2011 at 4:42 am.

   Nick,

   Why don’t you give it a rest? You are trying to portray me as evil incarnate and yourself as whiter than white. It simply isn’t so. I don’t know why you don’t just concentrate on solving the problems of this murderous capitalism that kills and maims millions. How many have I killed or maimed? None. Get your priorities right. I come on the forums to let everyone know it doesn’t have to be this way, that there are things we can do to save ourselves from the mayhem, but you concentrate more of your ire on me, when I am not the cause of the problems. The factual inaccuracy of what I said about when you joined the WSM forum might be obvious to you but I searched for the posts in question and couldn’t find them. But I remember that you were being attacked for what you wrote (as most people are there) as soon as you returned to that forum after a break. Is that more accurate? There are at least two sides to every story and we have heard yours. Now please either back up your claims about me or provide sufficient links so that readers can check for themselves. You certainly are not whiter than white. Nor are you an innovator. And the world needs innovators. Nor can you spell, but that is a minor matter. (more important in translating posts if anyone has difficulty with English or does not speak it at all). And do not forget that you started this row on this forum, as you have started it on other forums. I criticise ideas not people. You criticise people. It is like criticising capitalists instead of capitalism. Capitalists are just those who are successful within the capitalist system. They didn’t create capitalism. Some of them might be awful, terrible people, but so might some poor unsuccessful types. What are we here for, to criticise each other or to come up with solutions to the terrible problems that confront us all?
   ***
   And by the way, I did not leave any forums, I am still there.

   Cheers,

   Bob
   ***

   Reply to Robert Howes

bob firstly if you dont want to communicate with me then dont adress messages to me.
Secondly , I always get attacked on the wsm forum and i am proud of it. The SWm forum is a lively forum for debate the wsms members are mostly marxist and socialist , I am not !
I have never, never claimed to be an innovator.
The world needs all sorts of people , dreamers poets inventors workers singers , do you think you have more importance than me due to you being an innovator ? Are you an innovator?
backing up my claims.. heres an example.. you addressed a post to me in response to my post,lecturing me on the need to organise. i critised you for it, remember? you then replied that the post was aimed at the other forum readers.
anothe re example anyone can fish up themselves if they are bothered, bob obvoiusly you are
Time is one of the most precoius things that i have …I wasted littelly hours on you during our last debate on the wsm , to get you to understand some simple logic , when you finally agreed with what I said, i thought WOW! it hasnt been a waste of time . Then . you little shit , the very next day, after a little emotional out burstfrom , you returned to your previous posistion.
Further that,is your habit , to refuse to take resposiblity for what you say .. you always turn the subject away
Its very hard to forgive you for wasting my time.

Subhendu,

Please obtain copies of two books: Human Scale by Kirkpatrick Sale, and A Pattern Language, by Christopher Alexander et al. And read them both from cover to cover and absorb everything you read there. You will then see the world very differently and make different plans. At present you are following the bigness idea that Americans have run with for so long and so disastrously. 122 stories is not human scale, nor does it fit any useful pattern. Five floors is enough.

Cheers,

Bob
***

Bob likes to reproduce the illusion and falsehood that we need money, so many of his posts repeat this message , which is totally detrimental to a moneyfree world and the moneyfree movement in general.
While we [in the moneyfree movement] are argueing that the need for money is an illusion Bob is reproducing and reenforcing the idea that we need money
We already have the technology and we already have shit loads of money! so why havnt we moved to a money free world…. because of the economics of money!
What we DONT need is idiots telling us we need money, what we DO need is the message that the money system is un needed and detrimental to our humanity and our earth. What we do need desperatly more than any money in the world is to get the moneyfree debate into main stream society. We can all help in this [not by arguing the need for money as Bob so often does]
What the hell is Bob on about… may the best idea win, its not a fXXxing competetion, where is his logical conclusion he preaches about….. the reproduction of the illusion that we need money

1. chris posted the following on November 22, 2011 at 9:26 pm.

   nick, so if there is to be an opportunity to make any kind of change you have to first notice what the achiles heal of the current system would then be. it is the nipping at the heal of the same that will in time cause others to start to ask questions. the current system is based on injustice, many with huge excesses are doing evil unjust things to warrant them to have that which they should not. Now to take an instance, in the US. latest presidential election they decided to adopt the socialized medical system, good idea or not, they made a dramatic move and had an extreme uphill battle, now, if instead you look at the system from simple view of justice in which no one could reasonably object to your goals then you have no battle and move in the direction which would then make more sense. so instead of a dramatic full system change, the proposal would then be: the individual robbed at the local store and shot or severely injured was a damaged person because of the failure of society to protect the civil liberty of this individual. that injured person should then not have the obligation of their hospitilization, lost wages, etc. etc. therfore society by our latest bill shall propose that the victims of these crimes shall have full restitution by the state for the injury. later the proposal could include the labor of the peppetrator used to reimburse also the injury. insurance is the stronghold as well as banking of the oppressive oligarchy. it s to nip away at there abuses one at a time on the populace, they will not do so on their own and the change is to place political correctness that they will not chime in against what is common sense decency

   Reply to chris

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSoA8qQW2uQ something for Bob and all others wishing to start communitys

1. Danny Chau posted the following on November 22, 2011 at 9:52 am.

   Thank you for your input Nick, much appreciated. Will spread this message far and wide.

   Danny

   Reply to Danny Chau

I would like to know, from each person here, how do you think this moneyfree world can come about? Does anyone have a solid plan of action that is scalable and realistic. I have shown you mine, so show me yours.

Cheers,

Bob
***

OK, Nick has thrown his hat into the ring. Anyone else? Does anyone else have anything constructive to add? Just how do we get this consensus of the world’s population? It is hard to get two people to agree, to anything, let alone seven billion of us. Nick certainly doesn’t agree with me. Can those, like Nick, who are in the know, reach the rest of the seven billion, for free? Or might it cost one penny per person? At 1p per person that would be £70,000,000. Or can it be done for a tenth of a penny per person, only seven million quid? Someone needs a lesson in how to cost a political program.
***
If it can be done for free then get on and do it. I think it will cost trillions and take 100 years. Prove me wrong… Do it for a fiver in a year.
***
I expect some will say there is no need for a campaign, that everyone will have an awakening, and that costs nothing. Well I hope they are right. but I suspect I’ll have to wait till Hell freezes over to see it. Some people just don’t realise what a tiny proportion of the human race we are. We are almost as rare as hens teeth. Everyone else wants MORE money, not NO money. We are seen as oddballs, in the extreme. Just ask Robert Wilkinson the reactions he gets when he discusses a money free world with his nearest and dearest. How do you get on with your own friends and family? Do they all want a money free world? I bet they don’t. I bet most of them think you are nuts. So how are you going to convince such people? I’ve told you a way to do it but if you listen to Nick’s lies you will think I am lying. I am doing my best but Nick is part of the Hecklers Union who cannot stand the truth.

Cheers,

Bob
***

SPREADING THE MLE CONCEPT

Here is a way that may be tried by some energetic people with time and interest, which can help to popularize the MLE principles.

(a) Select a local public park, put some posters, saying the following kind of ideas:
(1) Learn about money-less economy (MLE).
(2) Know our central bank
(3) Why is economy bad etc.
(4) Announce a meeting time on a weekend requesting people to gather in that park

(b) Find at least two persons to speak on the poster subjects for 5-10 minutes.
(c) Encourage one or two people who have come to attend, to speak about their views.
(d) Continue the process for few weeks and then change to another park.
(e) Request the attendants to start similar process in other parks.

The method may or may not work depending on the exact plan details and the energy of organizers. It is not an Occupy movement. It is only for spreading the message, educating people about economy, central banking system, and the MLE.

I think I got the idea while reading some of your recent posts.

1. chris posted the following on November 23, 2011 at 10:05 pm.

   good core idea other than the poster in park, people seldom read or turn out for the like, but same idea but piggy back on political meeting already scheduled by controllers, take over meeting and present ideas croud will be inteseted in

   Reply to chris
   1. Subhendu Das posted the following on November 24, 2011 at 1:44 pm.

      Chris,

      You have added a good point. Your idea gives many advantages also. As I have mentioned, the success will depend on the details of the process.

      The posters can be of type that people of occupy-movement are using. They should remain in the park for about a week before the meeting. They should be in such a way that drive-by people can read them at their driving speeds.

      Although merging it with other activities may help in organizational aspect, but MLE is a complex concept, and requires intense and careful discussions. The ideal situation will be in one-on-one basis. In case of more than 10 persons it may not provide a satisfactory result, at least during initial few meetings.

      Internet is probably the best way, but we are not getting traffic. So we must spread all over in all existing sites, and create many more new sites in all countries. Greece, Italy, Spain are good places to spread. The Arab countries are even better, but I do not know how to pursue these approaches. People of Greece missed a great opportunity, when their past president declared for public referendum. But the money-power was quick to remove him.

      Maybe, one of you should join the political party, get elected, and try to do what Papandreou tried. This may be the most effective way to do it from within.

      Regards,
      Subhendu

      Reply to Subhendu Das

No Bob,

I am a total failure, a very lazy, and money-less man.
This is for persons like you, Nick and others who are active.

I am trying to do something similar on the internet. Even there I am not very active.

Unless God helps me I will be dead soon. May be in next life I will try, if things don’t change.

Subhendu, only time stands between us! May god help you. Live with an open mind die with an open mind. When people understand god there will be no religions!
Get in to the parks occupy all public space!

Nick,

Nothing is stopping me, I am doing what I can alone. I am spending thousands doing it and I expect results. So far it has cost me in the region of £50,000 plus. And I will continue spending on the tools for change (as I see it). I am putting my money where my mouth is.
***
You are working in a completely different way and you might succeed. Time will tell which is the better approach (if there is a better approach). all approaches are valid. Don’t you understand that? Do you think that only my approach is wrong? It is those giving the red light to the efforts of others that can thwart progress. but I will not be put off by your attempts to do damage to what I am trying to do.
***
Do your worst.

And cheers to everyone else,

Bob
***

Bob, They say 90% of all conflict is due to misunderstanding , perhaps you can help me understand you better.
please answer these questions
You state it cost money for a political campaign, How much did the protesters pay for the Arab spring?

Do you believe our environment can last another 100 years of capitalism?

You stated, “we will need a shit load of it [money] to make it possible for everyone in the world to live well without money.” Can you explain what that means?

Can you tell me exactly what you have spent £50,000 on and why? and what results you have had?
You state, “do not forget that you started this row on this forum, as you have started it on other forums “ ., Can you please tell me where I have started rows on other forums with people apart from yourself?
Why do you believe that socialism is a step to far for people ?

What did you mean by the following ?,” ah but you moved on, you didn’t stick with it did you? That’s important too you know. Decide on a path and stick with it. See where it leads you. You strayed and it led you to me. Maybe try a different path?

What did you mean by the following and why did you assume I had only just come to the said idea? “Glad to see you are getting to where I was in my thinking in 1971”

You state about a moneyfree world , “Few do now, but i was one of the pioneers of such thinking.”. Do you have any proof of that?

You often talk about co-operation with other groups, what groups do you cooperate with at the moment and how?

You state you decided to change the world 51 years ago, what results have you had? How did spending most of your life as a wage slave help?

I have some unemployed friends in Carmarthen , can you give them a paid job?

1. Robert Howes posted the following on November 26, 2011 at 3:29 pm.

   Nick,

   Before I answer any of your questions, please provide links for what you claim I have said. I don’t think I have ever said “it is impossible to live without money.” Please show exactly where I have said it or stop telling everyone that I did.

   Cheers,

   Bob
   ***

   Reply to Robert Howes

http://www.truththeory.org/