Anthology of Ideas

In the first paragraph, you mentioned that a system such as this is impossible because goods and resources are finite. The trouble with this statement is that all finite goods are either unnecessary to continue a life comparable to the one currently enjoyed by the top societies on the planet, or they are unnecessary period. For example, oil is unnecessary. As has been proven time and time again by many of the worlds top scientists, there are alternatives, such as synthetic oils for the lubrication of machinery. As for oil products, such as gasoline, there are many many different ideas already circulating, many of which work better than gasoline at doing the same job, which is to make things go. These alternatives are only being supressed because the monetary cost is too high. If there were no monetary cost, the argument goes away.
In your second paragraph, you mention the russian communal farms as proof that moneyless economies don’t encourage hard work. I agree, moneyless economies, when allowed to also be free, encourage smart work, not hard work. If a person has a choice between working for 12 hours in a field and building a machine, or attaining a machine, that will do the same work for him, without him having to do more than flip a switch, he chooses the machine. In current society, this would put many people out of work because the machine would enable one man to do the work of 12 with less stress. In a moneyless economy however, this would mean that the other 11 people could do what they actually want to do, the thing that makes them happy, such as exploring, building, learning, playing music, etc. A man will not work harder than his neighbor, he will work smarter. Because of this, everyone wins. The only problem comes from money. Get rid of it, the problem goes away. You also mention that in a group society, it doesn’t serve to stick out among ones compatriots. I’ve been in several groups and the only way that is true is if you stick out from the bottom rather than from the top. In a football team, the one who everyone shuns from the group is the one who always sits on the bench or the one who acts like an ass. On the other hand, the one who makes the team better is involved more in the group dynamic.
You also mention that the only way to fix the problem you’ve set up is with a merit based system, but wouldn’t this destroy the entire foundation of a moneyless society? Money is merit in the current system.
Since your third paragraph uses the same arguments I’ve already contended with, I’ll skip to the last. In this paragraph, you mention that the main goeal of the system should be ensuring all people begin life equally. The problem with this argument when taken in context with the rest of your essay is that it is impossible according to you, to do this without taking control of all children and raising them away from any outside influence that is different from any of the others. However, when allowed to work properly, letting individuals do what they love to do, rather than just putting them in a group doing the same thing where there’s no reward for doing the same thing better no matter what, when allowed to work properly, equality is a given. People do what they love to do, gaining personal merit, doing what makes them happy. I’m sure your argument for this would be that if everyone were allowed to do what makes them happy, nobody would do anything. If this were the case, the human race would have ended a very long time ago. People who are allowed to do what makes them truly happy have a longer, more fruitful life, which, in turn, means that the children of those people will have a longer, more fruitful life and, with this being said, you now know the true goal of a real socialist society. Freedom to be who you are, regardless of where you began.

1. Ali Dy Chin posted the following on December 8, 2008 at 11:59 pm.

   tmsbrdrs, I liked your comments. There are so many reasons why we can get rid of money. All the negative comments about money-less economy have solutions, just like what you have said, and some more others that we have not yet thought or said.

   Reply to Ali Dy Chin
2. chris posted the following on August 10, 2010 at 6:27 pm.

   well, those thoughts are from theoretical stand point without any reality of real world circumstances. I think the surgeon certainly should have more for his efforts than the garbage man or waitress, the problem that indeed exist isn’t that better skills pay better fortunes and are then a disadvantage to the lower working persons but in reality much sinister occurrence are a reality. Without addressing those deeds it matters not what system you set up. Certainly everyone knows in the places as the Soviet Union, some live lavishness, while some others not so lavish. In this country, insurance for instance is a pool of money used to unfairly enrich the oligarchy and depose the working masses of their wealth. Licensing has long been used to repress incomes to trained persons to the advantage of the oligarchy who have connections. These are the evils which hit at the core and will not change in society very well from within. The united nations Human Rights commission supposedly was instituted to address violations some of which should be like this and yet they have fallen dismally short of their expectations. Usually they would complain they have so many more important challenges to address, consequently they have become a non-effective organization. The problem is not that there be difference in amounts made by one or the other; that’s minor. What the lower income persons receives should not be stolen by the schemes the oligarchy devises. quite frankly some low income persons would live quite comfortably if thier were equality in services by the public sector. Do a survey somtime and determine for instance on incidences of vandalism and theft the reinstatement of the lower income persons restitution compared to the very wealthy. I can guanantee the wealtly have a 130% reinstatement compared to less than 10% of the lower working persons. This major injustice is what creates the great inequality, I dare say it is throughout the world the same.

   Reply to chris

I definitely agree on the possibility and the advantage of a money-less economy. We do not need money because money is the source of all evils.
We have more than enough biological resources. We have enough sources of energy for producing goods – e.g., geothermal, solar and wind energy, hydroelectric, nuclear energy, fossil fuels, and some others. And we have also the technology – nanotechnology, computer-based industries, and what-have-you.
What we need only now is the optimism, unity and the determination to get rid of a money-based system of economy.
Is anyone out there who knows a group or website that advocates a money-less economy so that I can give my moral support, at least, please let me know. Anyone who wants to talk with me about creating a group advocating a money-less economy, please contact me at my email – odyssey285@yahoo.com
By the way, where is the part 2 of the essay? I can’t wait to read it. Thanks a lot.

1. Rupert Russell posted the following on February 20, 2009 at 11:07 am.

   Hello Ali Dy Chin
   Check out the Venus Project.
   Best wishes
   Rupert

   Reply to Rupert Russell
   1. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on February 21, 2009 at 1:17 pm.

      Thanks Rupert. This site summarizes what I believe is the answer.

      http://www.thevenusproject.com/intro_main/whatis_tvp.htm

      Reply to Bob Wilkinson

A moneyless society will only occur by consensus. Stating that everything will be free if money were abolished is not true either; effort and materials go into any product. Once we realize how much time we waste keeping the economy functioning, we can begig to change the structure of material distribution. All one hears about today are deficits, bankruptcies, foreclosures, greed, Wall Street bailouts, and the endless financial analysts with their opinions on how to fix the economy. Our minds are constantly interrupted with commercials, and during social gatherings, the inevitable topic of conversation usually turns to money. We go to college with the goal of getting a good job that pays well. As a species we have not realized how much we waste of our lives with our endless preoccupation with money. It has become a sport also, something that computerized trading has made possible for the masses. Money has become a type of scorecard for those who are trying to get more than the next guy. I think we waste at lest half of all human effort keeping our money based economy functioning, and we’re not doing very well either. You are considered a nobody, or a kook if you think that money is the problem and should be eliminated. We have all heard the same arguement: If there were no money and everything were free, no one would work and chaos would take over. This is a true statement because we are not ready for a moneyless society yet. It will eventually happen, but not until we all get tired of keeping the present system in place. It must be a consensus, we all must agree. Trying to force a moneyless system with a strike will only cause more division. We need to educate each other, and discuss how to implement it. No one has all the answers. Until we all contribute what we can to get the necessary work done, we will have a money based system that forces us to work. Children would need to be raised with a good work, as well as play ethic, instead children are indoctrinated into a world where war, greed, and money are the primary motivating factors. We are not ready to abolish money yet because we have not learned to cooperate with each other, unless we are getting paid to do it. However a forum like this is part of the process, and gives me hope for a bright moneyless future for the people who have not yet been born.

1. chris posted the following on August 10, 2010 at 6:33 pm.

   i think half the people whoul drink get drunk or drug themselve crazy, the other half wold be out on the golf course. Wouldn’t take more than a couple months before the store shelves wold be bare. Afterall who would waste thier time plowing a field when a ready supply of drugs were wating in the pharmacy to just zone out?

   Reply to chris

test

nice to see the devil pop in for a comment on the issue although he needs to work on his english a little bit.

1. Ali Chin posted the following on February 16, 2009 at 11:32 pm.

   The devil lurks as long as the world exists. But they are doomed to fail and doomed to hell – fire, forever.

   Reply to Ali Chin

I agree that it would be difficult to implement a moneyless society, with so much apathy and indoctrination in the world. I think however that people really do long for a more fulfilling life, free from the constraints of money. There are so many human resources going to waste because they want to earn enough money to have a comfortable life, rather than putting their resources and ingenuity into improving themselves and the world at large.

I concur with the idea of mobilising the world community at large, at present it is practically impossible to find any decent resources or groups around a moneyless society. What is needed is a single resource, a global website and community to give more power to the necessary ideas and concepts for our species’ and planet’s survival.

It seems to be an occasional forum posting is the only thing that search engines spit out…

Oh it’s really hard not to become really bitter and depressed with the state of the world! I need to find friends who actually give a crap about the world!
Peace.

1. Rupert Russell posted the following on February 25, 2009 at 6:42 pm.

   Andrew, Hi.
   My life was plodding along quite nicely; good business, beautiful wife, lovely kid, living the middle class dream if you will. Then someone flicked a switch in my deep subconscious, this stunningly simple but nonetheless amazing idea has knocked me sideways. It occupies my every waking thought, it is brilliant. If I happened to believed in any gods I would swear that I had found him or her, an epiphany if you will, in this one simple glorious idea.
   I have read stream after stream of claim and counter claim, 3, 4, 5 way arguments swinging back and forth, brilliant questions followed by eloquent and precise answers, stupid questions followed by polite and gentle answers and everything in between. In all my research I am yet to find a single plausible argument that a money-less is a non starter. (And don’t say human nature, that developes to fit the environment in which it thrives.)
   The human race as an organism is pretty ill, I am utterly convinced this is the cure.
   We must get organised, this idea needs to spread, take it to the next level and save the world.

   Reply to Rupert Russell
2. Lori Lee posted the following on May 21, 2009 at 2:23 pm.

   Thanks Andrew,

   Yours is reflective of many of the other kind and thoughtful posts on this topic. Something must be changing. Here I was, thinking that maybe we were all stuck in the ugly materialistic mindset of the 80s forever! Fortunately I was wrong. I think that maybe people are finally starting to understand that we should not, and indeed cannot put a price on life if we are to live in peace. Campaigns like Adbusters really drive this point home. They are the ones who created the ‘logo flag,’ in which the stars of the American flag are replaced by popular corporate logos. Also, there is one very disturbing image, also created by Adbusters, in which a newborn is tattooed with corporate logos. I am so relieved to see that we are all evolving past this brutal way of thinking and believing. If we were to eliminate the money system, wars would not be funded, nor would human trafficking. We might not eliminate crime altogether with the elimination of money, but I’m pretty certain the world would be a sweeter and more compassionate place to live if we were to do so. Finally, I am convinced that the elimination of the class system would do away with judgmental mindsets for good, and that would be a tremendous step forward. For example, I live in a poor neighborhood because I really need the benefit of rent control. Many would say that this in itself makes me a bad person. But poor people are not ‘bad’ or ‘lazy.’ They are simply down on their luck. Peace.

   Reply to Lori Lee

There’s already a huge movement started in Florida called the Venus Project. Check it out and send this link to all your friends. Read the concepts about a resourced based economy. Spread the word.

http://www.thevenusproject.com/intro_main/whatis_tvp.htm

1. Ali Chin posted the following on April 20, 2009 at 6:15 am.

   is it not just about money-making project? I doubt it.

   Reply to Ali Chin

The reason why all of us here talking about a moneyless world is because we are all attracted to this very frequency of thought. All we need to do is to open ourselves up to the fact that we are all part of the whole, part of the body of universe. As quantum physics now tells us that the world we’re living in is of a holographic nature, we are co-creators creating our every future moment. Non of this talk here are wasted as they have already formed the foundation for all others to follow or to add to. That is how our present civilisation was build, by a single thought. We all posses the same DNA of the creator who created this universe, only that we just begin to realise our infinite abilities, and no doubt just as time now seem faster, so would our own awakening on this planet.

The present economic system was devised to keep us all at bay, to tied us down so we are not free to think for ourselves. So as the present religious system, with the fearful gods whom will punish us for not ‘doing as we’re told to do’. And that people are mesmerized with money and material or even power in our temporary existence, so that we are forever trapped in this hellish dimension and mindset.

We all have a duty to remind ourselves that this life is nothing more than a lesson or a ground for spiritual growth, look beyond the illusion and free our minds.

We should be spendtime to mediate,to learn our true nature and identity of who we really are, as we are a pure energy temporarily living in a holographic body.

Look up ‘Gregg Braden’ and Maurice Cotterell (plenty more prominent scientist and spiritual writers if only we care to look) on Youtube, as their lecture can open up our frozen and preconditioned minds.

Everything that happens in our life are the result of our own manifestations, we are intrinsically linked, what we all do will affect one another. So we must take courage to accept our own action and take up responsibility for one and another, that one day to share and benefit all.

Love and peace to you all.

Who is the prophet of money anyway, is it not the Rothschilds? They perpetuate the essence of money so that they can control the world. To get out of the chain of Rothschilds and their cohorts, get rid of their power – money. Do not give importance to money. What is money anyway? Give much and you can receive much. Dont think about money. Think more of generosity and kindness and money is no value.

If you think about it, money really just serves two main functions: A standard for barter and a storage medium for leisure. Without some form of standard, there is no workable way to translate one’s efforts into the things we want or need.

For example: Say a dancer needs a washing machine. How does she acquire one? She could offer tickets to the washing machine maker, but what if he has absolutely no interest in dance? Does she poll audience members at each performance for skills or goods the washing machine guy wants? What if there is such an audience member, but they live a hundred miles away? It’s just far easier for those who appreciate dance to compensate the dancer at the performance and for the dancer to use that compensation to go buy the washing machine.

As the above example indicates, money is necessary for any civilization where people acquire specialized skill sets above subsistence ones like pottery, farming and hunting. Money is one of mankind’s most important inventions, right up there with mathematics, writing and farming.

At it’s best, money gives us a way to abstract work and view the importance, benefit or harm for human activity. Humanity doesn’t need to abolish money, it needs to abolish the concept of privacy, at least where it applies to economic activity. We would get far more benefit if we abolished economic privacy than if we abolished money. But that is straying a bit far off the original topic.

1. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on July 10, 2009 at 6:02 pm.

   KT, as an ex-MBA student, I do understand the basic principles of economics, supply and demand theory, and how it is supposed to work. Your example of the dancer and washing machine maker only further makes my point. The dancer can still dance, and the washing machine maker can still make washing machines. The only difference is that there is no money transferred. You need to imagine the world without money. The widget maker can still make widgets, the computer programmer can still crank out code, the janitor can still clean your office, but when you go to the store, you take what you need but don’t have to stop at the cash register. Quality will improve because there would be no financial incentive to make cheap products either. Demand for goods and services can be calculated by the people who are doing useless money jobs today. Also, your example of the time involved in learning to pick vegetables does not take into account whether the highly technically trained people would have any interest in picking vegetables, or the vegetable picker the intelligence necessary to learn some type of advanced skill. It is true that it takes years of study to acquire certain skills, and that we all benefit from people who have advanced talents, but does that mean that those born with advanced intelligence and parents who can send their children to the best schools should have the greatest economic advantage, while those less fortunate are forced to live in squalor? If money didn’t exist, those with advanced skills, talents, and intelligence would have no incentive to flip burgers because it wouldn’t make any difference when they went to the store, because they wouldn’t have been raised and indoctrinated with the system that we have now. We need to remove money from the equation. People would still want to be the best they could be, whether that is the vegetable picker, or astrophysicist.

   I don’t quite understand your point about the elimination of economic privacy. I do know that baseball players, movie stars, and some CEOs make millions of dollars every year, while most of us would be overjoyed with a job that paid $20 an hour. Even if economic privacy were eliminated, meaning I suppose that we could all look into company�??s financial records, and anyone�??s bank and checking account, who would have the time or desire to do so? How would that work? Would companies even be honest in the records they made public? Would people feel guilty about having millions of dollars while others are getting kicked out of their homes, when it is the people who have the millions of dollars who are kicking people out of their homes? And what are we left with? We are left with a bunch of rotting vacant houses and more homeless people. We know that inequity exists, and it is caused by our flawed human nature and is exacerbated by the economic system.

   Reply to Bob Wilkinson
   1. KT posted the following on July 10, 2009 at 9:43 pm.

      I think your world without money ignores how critical it is to entice people to perform boring jobs. Without money, no one is going to voluntarily decide that their lot in life is to pick vegetables in 100 degree heat. No fresh-faced college graduate is going to run to the nearest hardware manufacturer and ask them to let him apply his material science degree developing alloys for lock washers or electro-plate finishes for kitchen cabinet pull knobs.

      Without money, what incentive is there for anyone to do these crappy jobs? Without money, there would need to be some central authority that compelled candidates to “pay their dues” doing crap work, because damn few people would choose to do it on their own. Without money, how does society punish those who choose not to pull their weight? You can’t just hope that every individual will behave rationally or altruistically at all times. It will never happen. People get pissed off. Some extremist Christians insist the earth is 6000 years old and that we should teach our children this nonsense. It is critical that people be allowed to oppose the actions of others and one way to do that is through the power money imparts.

      As to my “abolishing financial privacy” idea, think of any simple purchase, say a hand made bowl from a local craft shop. With total financial transparency, you could pop out your iPhone (or blackberry or whatever) and instantly see a graphical representation of what effect your purchase has on the economy. I don’t know if you are familiar with the great TV series “Connections” by James Burke, but as I envision it, taking a picture of the bowl or perhaps it’s UPC symbol, you could see where the clay came from, where the pigments in the glaze came from, if the pigment manufacturer for the glaze has a good record for paying workers or disposes of hazardous waste properly.

      With this kind of detailed info, consumers could tailor their purchases in ways that seem morally right to them. If done correctly, it would give individuals tremendous power to reward good companies and punish bad ones at point of sale. Something impossible to do today. Consumers could choose to limit excessive pay for the criminally greedy by simply buying a competitors product.

      As it turns out, in looking up James Burke, I stumbled across this link to a research project that is very similar to what I’m talking about.

      Reply to KT
      1. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on July 11, 2009 at 1:07 am.

         In a world powered by the need for money as a mechanism for exchange, you are right in your contention that menial, boring, hazardous, jobs would not get done if there was no financial reward. But what I envision is that if people are educated correctly, everyone would know their potential and talents, and have the proper moral standards that would make dishonesty as difficult as stabbing one’s self. No one wants to clean septic tanks, or fill in the blank with your favorite crummy job, but if we want and need these tasks to be done, we will all need to share in the completion of those tasks. Even if we all become Einstein like geniuses, we will still need to have our toilets working. Just because someone has a degree from MIT or Harvard, that will not put him or her above having to do some of the dirty work. You ask will a central authority be assigning the jobs no one wants to do, and then try to compare the idea of a moneyless society to the ridiculous Christian claim that the world is 6,000 years old, implying that both ideas are as equally nonsensical. That is not a valid comparison, because science has proven the Christian claim is untrue, and in modern times a moneyless society has never been attempted. I’m not sure exactly how it would work – getting the dirty work done, but possibly some type of rotation of personnel; like for one month out of the year each of us would pick vegetables, fix potholes, plow snow, etc. People will not see themselves as too good, or above doing the necessary menial jobs, no matter who they are as long as they have the proper education. I’m not saying it will be an easy road, or that there will not be setbacks, or that it will happen soon. I think you present typical arguments against even considering researching the subject of a moneyless society. We should not close our minds to the concept. We have so much to gain by the eliminating of money. That is true financial freedom.

         The James Burke web page looks interesting. I will look into it at a later time. In a moneyless society there would be no need to abolish financial privacy, because there would be no incentive to manufacture inferior products, or have manufacturing processes that degrade the environment. Most pollution can be eliminated if there wasn’t the financial burden that goes along with being “as green as possible.” Companies, factories, coal fired plants will not clean up their act because it cuts into their bottom line. If there were no bottom line, there would not be the incentive to degrade the environment in the quest for profit. Excessive pollution would be eliminated, simply because we have the technology today to do it, and it is the right thing to do, instead making the excuses companies make today that “green technologies�?� will make them unprofitable and make them go out of business, or that we just can’t afford it because it will cost too many jobs. Money is obsolete and we need to open our minds to the new possibilities that a moneyless society presents.

         Reply to Bob Wilkinson
      2. KT posted the following on July 11, 2009 at 1:58 am.

         You ask will a central authority be assigning the jobs no one wants to do, and then try to compare the idea of a moneyless society to the ridiculous Christian claim that the world is 6,000 years old, implying that both ideas are as equally nonsensical.

         Clumsy wording, admittedly, but it was too late to take it back.

         I�??m not sure exactly how it would work – getting the dirty work done, but possibly some type of rotation of personnel; like for one month out of the year each of us would pick vegetables, fix potholes, plow snow, etc. People will not see themselves as too good, or above doing the necessary menial jobs, no matter who they are as long as they have the proper education. I�??m not saying it will be an easy road, or that there will not be setbacks, or that it will happen soon. I think you present typical arguments against even considering researching the subject of a moneyless society. We should not close our minds to the concept.

         Rotation doesn’t work. Back when I was a department supervisor, I tried rotating shifts and tasks and everyone hated it. People for whom work is a job, not a career, prefer to have a defined set of duties they can master. Once mastered, these people work more or less on autopilot and that’s what they seem to want. I tried for a time to get the autopoilot people enthused about some aspect of the job, but after awhile, it just started feeling too Opra-like. I stopped the rotations, defined the jobs and everyone was much less stressed after that.

         It’s fine to think, in the abstract, about a moneyless society, but at some point, you have to end the brain storming sessions and at least try to come up with concrete strategies to bring that society about.

         In your opinion, what is the basic framework for starting such a process? You’ve mentioned education, but what exactly will education focus on? What else?

         Reply to KT
      3. Rupert Russell posted the following on July 11, 2009 at 1:57 am.

         It is becoming apparent that this argument rages across many blogs and discussion sites.
         KT are you aware of Jeremy Rifkind? He wrote The End of Work. The idea that in generations to come simple manual tasks will still be performed by humans is laughable. Cybernetics and advanced robotics and automation have all but eradicated the use of manual labour in manufacturing. Most people now work in the service industries and those jobs are slowly being cybernated as well. 100 years ago it took 10 to feed 100, it now takes 3 to feed thousands.
         One of the main reasons for this global financial crisis is the loss of real purchasing power. The banks inflated this credit bubble to maintain liquidity in the system. Many economists argue that capitalism and cybernetics cannot coexist. As the use for human labour dwindles so does the capitalist ideal. Modern economies have been fighting against the inevitable since 1971, some say earlier than that. More and more people are beginning to understand that this current socioeconomic model is unsustainable and that anything less than a paradigm shift in the fundamental structure of the global capitalist design is a futile waste of existence.
         As one system dies, as this one clearly is, it will have to be replaced. But with what? To get something we have never had we must do something we have never done.
         Peace.

         Reply to Rupert Russell
      4. KT posted the following on July 11, 2009 at 2:22 am.

         Thanks for the book ref. Sounds interesting, I’ll check it out.

         The general question of automation and cybernetics brings up the problem: What will be left for humans to do once everything has been automated? We have evolutionary algorithms which are able to design novel circuits, robotic surgery, self driving vehicles, Ray Kurzweil talking about the impending singularity when computer intelligence surpasses human intelligence.

         I’m not really worried about a Terminator scenario, but what happens when there is nothing humans can do better than machines? Don’t know if you’ve ever taken a sabbatical, but after the first month or so, it gets really boring. People need to feel they make a difference, but with automation besting even highly trained humans in every field, there really will be nothing useful for us to do.

         Reply to KT
      5. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on July 12, 2009 at 1:36 am.

         Rupert, thanks for the post. I still have a lot to learn. I find Jeremy Rifkind’s synopsis, click the link below to read, on the “End of Work” to be but more evidence on the obsolescence of money and the need to transition to a moneyless society.

         http://www.basicincome.com/basic_rifkin.htm

         Reply to Bob Wilkinson
      6. KT posted the following on July 12, 2009 at 1:38 pm.

         Rupert, This intrigues me. Do you have any names for a few of those economists? I’d like to read what they have to say.

         Many economists argue that capitalism and cybernetics cannot coexist.

         Reply to KT
   2. Sixpm posted the following on July 10, 2009 at 11:49 pm.

      Totally agree with Bob, well said. I’m ready for such a change, the hardest struggle in this change is our mindset. As our present system is based on the total denial of our spiritual nature we all inherit. We will need to educate that we are just a ‘ghost in a shell’ temporarily living a physical journey, the purpose of this is entirely focus on spiritual growth.
      So much of our efforts in life is wasted to accumulate money and wealth that ultimately we can not take away, how sad and stupid is that, this is pure madness with no sign of any intelligence IMO.

      Reply to Sixpm

Hi KT

To answer your points one by one

1) I actually concur with Otto Neurath who made the point that calculation in kind was in fact the only proper basis on which evaluate environmental impacts. Evaluation is of course in itself a subjective process but in a capitalism it is constrained by an objective system of market prices which guide decisionmaking and mediates between – or if you like, distorts – our subjective evaluations – and the environmental phenomena under observation

2) Genuine communism or socialism – not to be confused with USSR-style “state capitalism” – is not about common ownership of possessions. I no more want to assert my ownership to your toothbrush than you would, my T shirt. Its about MEANs of production only.

3) The vast majority of crime is property related – directly or indirectly. That is another good reason for wanting to get rid of a money-based system. Capitalism endorses individualistic egoistic behaviour and it is not surprising that some “enjoy breaking the rules” for that reason. I actually think that in a genuine communist society the force of moral sanction would be far stronger becuase of the underlying convergence of economic and social interests would make for greater clarity of the rules of social intercourse. Of course, there will still be some crime I agree – we are not talking about a utopia just a better way of running society – and although it is difficult to predict, I would imagine a much more humanised system of justice would come into play which would inter alia would seek to understand and address what it was that prompted the criminal to commit the crime

4)I am not saying that everyone’s contribution to society will be valued equally. To the contrary! The point is that a system of prestige or social esteem would be based on your contribution to society and not what you take out of it – conspicuous consumption (which would be meaningless anyway where everyone has free access to goods and services). So I am actually in accord with you when you say “I don�??t believe we will ever reach this level of egalitarianism.”. But what you dont realise is that that is actually quite powerful argument in favour of a non-money economy. It provides an added inducement for people to work -to gain the esteem of their fellows – in the absence of so called monetary incentives. In fact anthropologists have long noticed how systems of prestige have operated in different societies on totally different principles to capitalist society.

5) Regarding luxuries, far be it from me to suggest that indulgences would be prohibited. The important things is that the production of luxury goods must surely take second place to the satisfaction of basic needs. There has to be some kind of hierarchisation of needs or wants in that respect. I dont see anything wrong in your wanting to take off in a sailboat. Thats quite legitimate as a leisure activity. I am not some prudish killjoy in that respect. But have you considered other possibilities. For example you dont need to actually own the sailboat to use it. A large number of luxury objects like expensive sailboats and even cars langush in disuse becuase they are the exclusive property of some individual who couldnt be bothered. Here I am perhaps slightly contradicting myself when I said personal possessions would not be commonly owned. There may perhaps be a kind of grey area between means of production and personal possessions and a luxury boat might be an example of this

Cheers

Robin

A stateless, moneyless society is based on abundance instead of scarcity. Our current system expends a lot of energy to create scarcity. Abundance is based upon harnessing solar power, full automation, reduction of needs, and gift economy.

About money. it is important to learn that Rothschilds are the masters of money. They are the cause of our poverty and misery. Get rid of money and the power of Rothschilds is gone.

1. Robin Cox posted the following on July 12, 2009 at 9:51 am.

   No I disagree Ali. The Rothchilds are not the “cause of our poverty and misery” Quite apart from anything else there are other very wealthy individuals besides them. It is not a tiny handful who are responsible; it is we – the vast majority – who are responsible in the sense that we acquiesce in or sanction the existence of a capitalist society in which this tiny handful enrich themselves at our expense. They only appear to stand tall because we are on our knees. It is time to change that

   Reply to Robin Cox

I am quite reserve in the idea of building the money less society and in fact, i don’t agree at least in this moment.

1. do we really need a money-less society?
2. will such society solve our problem? or in another way round it is when our problems resolved, this society will exist?
3. can our problems really be able to resolved eventhough we have changed as well as on our edcucations…. how a consenses be reached? by majority again?
4. how is such society differs from an Utopia which only exists in our imaginations?
5. is money the root of our problems? or are we missing the point?
6. can we just think small rather than such big and board?
7. should we put more resources on discussing and revealing unfair policies or suggestions which can help improve the community we living in?
8. without money and without people who eg. work as investment bankers or other people who earn in financial field rely on spaculations, will someone spaculate on other things when there is no money?
etc etc…
9. Money in the very basic sense server as a standard to make us quantify our service and products produced, which make us easier and more convenient to exchange what we need from others who have them.

Imagine I am a hungry dancer, without money, should I perform a dance while i am starve to death but for a piece of bread in front of the baker? If the baker don’t need a bread, should i go on to another baker who wants to watch dance performance for him to give me the piece of bread? how many baker i have to go before i find the baker who need my dance performance?

Money can just eliminate those problem, makes our live easier, save our time and resources in doing what we want to, instead of wasting our efforts. Without money, as per above, our lives is just difficult.

Without money as an unit or standard for exchange, another measurement might exists like gold / oil / natural resources / or in the very beginning we use shells / or even somehow in the barter economy, who own the most land, most men, most maybe even apples!……..

why money-less society can help? the idea behind building a money-less society might be good. (subject to further discussion). however, the direction to have a money-less society can be wrong.

Should the society be money-less or greedy-less or power-less or wealthy-less or meat eater-less or desire-less or lazy-less? which one is better? or actually greedy-less / lazy-less / voilent-less socity more important than a money-less society?

People fight for money only? how about those compete for power? envy? what makes a person selfish? money again? or can be other things or issue? Painter A can envy the other painter B who paints better than himself or envy the other painter C who received more admirations even though he is just a freshman… not for money..

If we are moving others to go to the wrong directions, which base on our mistaken judgements / misunderstandings, we might still be doing bad. We must be very careful in initiating or promoting any movements eventhough we are all aiming to build a good and better society.

Lets discuss.

1. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on July 13, 2009 at 11:33 am.

   As I have said before, I don’t claim to have all the answers, or really know how such a complete shift in material distribution methods will take place, only that is such a change were to take place, the vast majority of people would have to agree on such a system.

   You ask do we really need a moneyless system. The reason I believe so is evidenced in the current economic situation the world finds itself. There are children who need to be taught, and teachers ready to teach them, but the budget cannot allocate the funds. There are houses sitting vacant and vast numbers of homeless people, most of which would rather be working than living behind a bush or down by the river, because the homeless person cannot find a job, mostly because of automation and outsourcing. There are vast types of infrastructure that need to be built or repaired, a great pool of labor and materials waiting to be used, but the finances are not available. These are but a few examples of the problems that the money system has created. I believe money used to be necessary, but it is now obsolete. We waste too much effort trying to force an unworkable system that creates boom and bust cycles. The economic system is the source of much human misery, and really only benefits the few percent who control the vast majority of economic wealth.

   It is my opinion the we could have a much more efficient system, and happier human race, if we did not have to stop at the cash register on the way out of the store, or fill out timecards, get checks from the payroll department, deposit them in a bank, pay bills, balance the checkbook, pay taxes, get loans, etc. It is an unnecessary process that makes everything about life more difficult.

   I really don’t expect to convince anyone of my arguments for a moneyless society. It seems that we could discuss it forever and never come to an agreement, as evidenced by the posts in this blog. Perhaps it will take some worldwide cataclysm that forces such a system into place because of the difficulty that people have even considering a moneyless system. It seems so simple to me, but I am just one person, and not everyone thinks like I do, not that I am better or worse than you or anyone else, because I am not. Money seems to be a part of our DNA, something I have reluctantly learned to live with and accept, like the handicapped person who accepts being paraplegic, but hopes for a scientific breakthrough. Like the handicapped person who dreams of walking, who cannot mend his nerves, I am in a similar place with my vision of a moneyless society, with no way of really knowing how to get such a system started.

   Reply to Bob Wilkinson
   1. Sixpm posted the following on July 13, 2009 at 11:51 am.

      We are certainly not lacking in will for a moneyless society, only in numbers, which is on the increase from the number of discontent people all over the globe. All we have to do is to wait patiently for this to collective thought energy to gather momentum, no one expects the Berlin wall could come down so swiftly did we?

      Reply to Sixpm
   2. Hecate posted the following on July 13, 2009 at 12:44 pm.

      I would like to give kudos to Bob Wilkinson for introducing compassion to this debate. I think we need more people like him in the world, with a very healthy balance between head and heart. At the moment, we live in a society dominated by brutal rationalizations, whether it be for war or money. If someone in your family is murdered, are you really going to rationalize away why it happened? Most likely not. You will feel grief and then try to work through it. But we do rationalize violence in society, perhaps because it is simply easier for us, even though there lies the path of denial. Right now we are experiencing a more subtle kind of violence, what with bankers or government officials paying themselves whatever they feel is due them. Of course it becomes a little less subtle when it comes to children starving.

      I think we can do better than be clever monkeys playing around with money or making tech gadgets for yuppies. Speaking of technology – why not make it more available to under-served communities? Tech companies could easily set up charities to do so, yet they don’t. There may be a scant few non-profits who set up such programs.

      I feel that these times call for eradicating what Buddhists call the ‘monkey mind.’ To me that means refraining from being distracted from superficial issues in our lives and looking for deeper meaning as to why we are here. I don’t know about anyone else here, but I doubt I’ll be on my death bed bragging about how much money I had, or having held a position in X corporation as some haughty big-whig fat cat. Most people look back over their lives and ask themselves whether they had meaningful relationships with others. Most who are not automatons, anyway.

      I treat my money the way it should be treated – with total detachment. I do my best not to put emotional value on it. I save easily, because I realize that dirty dollars usually have more meaning for others than they do for me. And when I have any extra, I do indeed give to charities. I am not saying I’m better than anyone for doing so. I am just suggesting that we not be so attached to money, which is a completely imaginary construct, as so many things in our delusional society are.

      Reply to Hecate

Hi Joram,

The question of money is not irrelevant, it’s extremely important. Unless moneyless society enthusiasts can address the criticisms of capitalists, head on, there’s not a snowball’s chance in hell that this issue will ever graduate beyond comment threads on backwater discussion boards.

Even with solid arguments, money is woven so tightly into the fabric of society, that opinion makers will be able to casually dismiss the idea of a moneyless society, by rolling their eyes, twirling their finger next to their temple and a silently mouthing “looney toons.”

If you want a moneyless society, think about how to counter the arguments of die-hard capitalists.

Re comments from all:
First I do really admire Bob for a very kind and positive insight for a money-less society. I totally agree with Sixpm as well saying we need more people like Bob having such good mind-set for a better world.

For myself, I do not rule out the possibilities of a money-less society and I do not disagree or disapprove such society as long as it improves our standard of living.

As per my understanding after reading the above comments, what bothers us a lot and what makes people like Bob come up with the intention for a money-less society is mainly about the inequality and unbalance distribution of resources that happen everyday on Earth.

The inequality is kept being more serious, which worsen under the operation of our current monetary system. Small group of people with power use their dirty and corrupted means to control, to influence, to monopolize our resources for their own interests.

I do not rule out the possibility of a money-less society but I doubt its effectiveness in helping us solve the problem of inequality, in helping us raise our standard of livings. This is the reason why I have so much queries on the operation and by what means we can reach this state?

I doubt its effectiveness doesn�??t mean I am satisfied with the world nowadays and the monetary system among all of us. I doubt its effectiveness doesn�??t mean I am corrupt or dishonest. Also, it doesn�??t mean I want to keep few million and billion of hard cash at the end of my time in this world.

I doubt even if we have reached a vast consensus on a money-less society, will inequality still exists and why and why not?

Lets take an example, an adult who is over-weight (eg. 400 lbs) is unhealthy. He eats junk food everyday, eats a dozen pieces of cakes full of cream daily, eat lots of meat a day, only drink full fat milk, no water, no exercises, etc..

In order to become healthy again, this guy has to change his eating habit all over. With much much less calories a day, but how? Start from the creamy cakes! He eats fewer and fewer cakes a day until one day he eats no more cake. He is still overweight although slightly better than before. Then he drinks less full fat milk and more water a day, his condition improves but still overweight�?�.. Finally, he back to a balanced diet but still not healthy, because he does no exercises at all�?�.

The above story is what I want to indicate, for a society without money, just the life of this over-weight guy without creamy cakes, will the society be a healthy society just by becoming money-less? Will inequality, unfairness, discriminations etc. etc. disapper and everyone lives happily, harmoniously, co-operatively and safely? Obviously not.

Money is just one of the means and elements that lead to the current issue we face, but not all. A piece of cake even its full of cream can not be harmful if you just take one or two occasionally. Just like money, its not evil if you make use of it wisely. Language is essential because it is a way to communicate, but we all can use language to say bad words of others, spread gossips, etc.

Self-consciousness, respect, fairness, and a caring society are few criteria that build up an utopia. We work bit by bit to march toward this direction.

Hope you all understand the above and trust debate is always essential for us to reach our same goal for a better world, with or without money-less society. Through in-depth discussions, our plans and directions can always be made more refined with less flaw.

1. Sixpm posted the following on July 15, 2009 at 6:30 am.

   Hi Dennis,

   The reason the guy got fat in the first place is that our food manufacturers is only interested in profit and not our health, so they made the food without the ‘correct’ intend. These corrupted corporation works hand in hand to produce food that is harmful to us and the same people then supplies drugs that suppose to keep us ‘healthy’. I believe that there are lots of illness can be cured with our pharmaceutical companies, but they also has chosen just to keep us on a ‘drip’ to squeeze every penny where they can.

   Ever thought that most of our worlds government use war to ‘make peace’, they sell arms to keep smaller countries in ‘democracy’?

   Most people are just too naive (including me for a long time), thinking others would behave with dignity and honesty. I’ve now learn to see the world in a different light, all the more we should waken others to see where we are heading with the present economic policies. I’m sure when these fact are exposed and becomes common knowledge, most people will begin to demand for a better system.

   Reply to Sixpm
2. Toby posted the following on July 15, 2009 at 12:16 pm.

   Hi Dennis,

   see money as a rationing tool. Goods and services need to be rationed when they are available in scarcity, not abundance. From the coupling of money with scarcity arises all sorts of perceptions about life and how it works: what competition is, that greed is “normal,” that success is having more than others, etc. So money is more than just a neutral tool. Not only is it inseparably joined with scarcity and therefore want, it inescapably becomes a very potent symbol for things like status and success, and shapes our understanding of what those things are, not to mention “value.”

   Society without money would necessarily be profoundly different. No conspicuous consumption, no marketing, no competition for scarce resources, no nations, no “growth,” total transparency in the public domain, and so on. It is impossible to know what this would do to human behaviour, but the effects of abundance on our civilisation would be deep and far reaching indeed.

   But none of this means an absence of problems. Indeed, the challenge of living a life which has to be shaped by your own imagination and creativity is a daunting one. No job telling you where to be and what to do, no boss, no “father-figure” state. Just freedom. Think of how people cope with retirement, how they cope with a sudden lottery win. It’s not that easy. So post-scarcity is not post-problems, just new problems. As with all change some problems will be solved, new ones introduced, and so it will go on forever. Without problems and challenges, life would be boring. To expect a money-less society to deliver nirvana is naive and missing the point, to say it is a bad idea because it does not deliver nirvana is also missing the point. It is simply the next logical step of humanity’s progress, should we manage to survive this current set of issues. Our challenge is to make it work as best we can.

   Peace
   Toby

   Reply to Toby
   1. Rupert Russell posted the following on July 15, 2009 at 2:21 pm.

      Well said Bro.
      Peace

      Reply to Rupert Russell
3. Alvin posted the following on July 16, 2009 at 9:16 am.

   Dennis, very well written

   It’s ironic Sixpm replied you, “Most people are just too naive (including me for a long time), thinking others would behave with dignity and honesty.” Aren’t that “dignity” and “honesty” the fundamental for starting an money-less economy?

   I feel that it becomes a discussion on a new “religion” instead of a project. People discuss in what they believe emotionally instead of thinking it rationally.

   Reply to Alvin

Hi all

I was thinking about making a web site/forum specifically for “moneyless society” discussions and while testing out various domain names for availability, I stumbled across this site and the Amazon link to the book. Looks like exactly what we’ve been talking about.

Thought others might be interested…

1. Toby Russell posted the following on July 17, 2009 at 7:05 am.

   Hi KT,

   the direction you are exploring there in those links is more of a “fresh” look at money and how to deploy it beneficially. I want to look more deeply into all that, but my impression at first blush is that the analyses fail to ask the question of whether money, or rather any medium of exchange, is necessary at all.

   Conventionally, economics is the study of the following process:

   production –> exchange –> consumption

   Is production –> consumption at all possible? Isn’t that what nature does? I think nature does this: production –> consumption –> “waste” –> production. That seems to me the way to go. All the answers are there in nature. Nature has already cracked sustainable “growth” and we should take our cues from it.

   Why do we need a medium of exchange? Incentive? I for one (of many) don’t buy this. Scarcity? That’s a design issue. Human nature? No way. Homo sapiens sapiens lived for tens of thousands of years — the majority of it’s time on Earth — without money. Money was “invented” to deal with scarcity. Now scarcity can be designed away, IF we can learn sufficiently from nature, and money uninvented.

   If you have money you have scarcity and exchange. If Rifkin is right and only 2% of the world’s working-age population will be employed in manufacturing by 2020, what can humans exchange (labour) to get their money? What hope for purchasing power? The service industry is being slowly decimated by AI and other technological advances. What room for these facts in the new-money/alternative money thesis? These are very important questions.

   If you have money you have scarcity, by definition. If you have scarcity you have an inbuilt pressure towards corruption — having more money is better than having less. Over time any “good” exchange tool can be altered, tweaked, and eventually fall under the power of those types of human who have it now, who excel at manipulating it.

   Peace
   Toby

   Reply to Toby Russell
   1. KT posted the following on July 17, 2009 at 6:33 pm.

      Hi Toby

      The more deeply I look into this, the more complex it becomes and sites like the one I linked to indicate that there is a lot of good thinking going on. As the saying goes “we need to learn to walk before we can run” and more intelligent means of exchange may represent our first halting steps toward something better.

      As to nature, I think we need to be careful what models or ideals we project upon it. Multicellular organisms are proof that cooperation and specialization have enormous benefits, but what is also obvious is that, with the respect to individuals, nature is completely unsentimental. If a newborn (or old, or sick) gazelle isn’t quick enough, it dies an excruciating death as a hungry lion sinks sharp claws deep into it’s body, ripping off chunks of living flesh and tearing out it’s throat. One of nature’s most important “mediums of exchange” is death. Another is parasitism. Not exactly “fluffy bunny” models for a new society.

      According to this Wikipedia “history of money” timeline, it seems in the early days, money was basically just a receipt. Where money started to go wrong was when it evolved from a system for representing things of value into a system for measuring the value of things.

      Once that happened, we started using it to measure the value of time, knowledge and with the advent of patents, ideas themselves. That’s where things really started to go haywire. Nowadays, it is accepted, without question, that if a high powered CEO and a cube rat were sitting side by side, studying the exact same spreadsheet, the thoughts running through the CEO’s head are somewhere between 50 to 350+ times as valuable as those running through the cube rats head. (as evinced by their relative pay)

      Most of mankind’s most important ideas earned the discoverer nothing. They may have sold books outlining the ideas or gotten positions, but the ideas are free for all humanity to use.

      It seems like a good first step toward reform would be to show the fallacy of the “time is money” and “ideas are money” concepts.

      Reply to KT
      1. Toby posted the following on July 18, 2009 at 3:30 am.

         Hi KT;

         As to nature, I think we need to be careful what models or ideals we project upon it.

         We are nature. There is nothing which is not nature. “Unnatural” is an illogical word. The dichotomy you describe between the ruthlessness of nature’s attitude to some individual organism versus the harmony and balance of the collective whole is valid, but not the whole story. What I really meant by learning from nature (which is a problematic expression given how I opened this paragraph) is more on the mechanical, problem-solving side of things. Efficiency and redundancy, and so on. Like a spider’s web is stronger than steel ounce for ounce, but is brewed at room temperature out of water and enzymes and sugars (apparently). Technological stuff. Check out Bernard Lietaer on this. When it comes to philosophy and paradigms and whether nature is ruthless or unfair or fair etc, that is a different domain, an intellectual exercise with a different set of pitfalls and benefits.

         That said, I am open to the idea that the road to a true resource-based economy might be paved with alternative types of money to the brutal fiat currency we enjoy today. Jacque Fresco recognizes that money will be an inescapable part of the transition. How to keep things fair and open and as incorruptible as possible is therefore a very important part of the process, walking before running as you say. So I am all for that analysis but worry too that serious technological unemployment will be upon us sooner than we think. Currently people suggest some other employment sector will open up alongside manufacturing and services, but do not know what that might be. Rifkin suggests the civic sector, but that would be funded by government. Where will government get enough taxes from to pay civic sector workers if only 40% or so are employed by the private sector?

         You mentioned in an earlier post that you would be interested in setting up a website along the lines of a discussion forum for this important arena. Me too. I imagine a portal to all strong information and analysis pertinent to this topic, where people can come to keep up to date, where research is made easier and is more focussed. If you want to collaborate on that I’d be willing to talk it over: tobyhdr@yahoo.co.uk,

         Peace
         Toby

         Reply to Toby

Please read my comment at the part 2 of this essay – the importance of spiritual side of discussion with the material world. Discussing material world bears nothing if we exclude the spiritual because they are complementary. And the only complete school of material and spiritual world is Islam. Read about Islam – the real Islam.

Joram, your english is good when you want to. But you usually distort it to distort the serious discussions here. You are a paid mercenary, I’m sure. Wait for your turn in the burning Hell. I don’t want to waste my time with your sick mind.

1. Sixpm posted the following on July 18, 2009 at 4:33 am.

   Dear Ali and Joram,

   We are all part of the whole, as in the absolute nothing escapes the ‘universal consciousness’ or ‘god consciousness’. I understand that we are all at a different stage of our spiritual development, thus we are all clouded with subjective distortion which is recognised as ‘discrimination’.

   Our ego and pride is the product of our lower physical/animal nature, and until we become more aware of our higher spiritual self, we will always see ‘others’ are separate from the ‘me’ or ‘I’. This extends to everything including our limited subjective ideals or beliefs, and is exactly the intolerance that mankind still deeply entrenched with.

   The illusion of the separate self is one of the major mental stumbling block that we need to work on, what differentiate between animals and human apart from our natural survival instinct is the capability of reason and free will, above all of this, the recognition of the higher spiritual self which is love. The love here I’m taking about has no bounds, it is encompassing for all humanity, at whatever stage of their spiritual evolution.

   Although I was brought up with man made religion by my family, but my reasoning mind soon helped me to disassociate myself with their unreasonable doctrines. The main core of all man made religion should be base on love and total acceptance of all humanity. But instead all the spiritual messages was unfortunately tinted with man’s own lower esteemed nature.

   I dare to ask a simple question to all religious minded people, of the billions of years since the creation of our universe, when, where and whom created the religion that you believed in at present? If these ‘GODS’ is still in existence, why they never appear and lead us the way with love and peace now, instead this ‘GOD’ would expect us all to believing in ‘him/her’ without any questions, or to condemn and sentence all those who don’t believing in it’s doctrines to ‘HELL’?

   All forms of superstition and doctrines are nothing but a collective of subjective interpretations from the uninitiated individuals over the centuries. Our duty must be to open our minds and question everything that we have been told, and should never taken anything for granted or at it’s face value without investigation.

   Most of the present religion’s god is a vengeful one, unjust, very unforgiven and unfair and are biased to love only the ones whom would obey and/or are scared into submission by fear.

   We must all take our first step to forgive and to forget ‘other selves’ for there unconscious actions which in turn also forgiving a part lodged deep down in each one of us.

   Whenever we see or noticed something ‘wrong’ in ‘other selves’ is nothing but a reflection and interpretation of our subjective thinking mindset. I wish each and everyone of us could put down this unjust differences and allow others happily to live with their beliefs or whatever their views maybe.

   Love and peace.

   Reply to Sixpm

What’s below is from emails between the two Bobs:

Hi There Bob W.
Thanks for writing again, I might have forgotten as I have rather a lot going on at present. My SUV, as they call them, needs a little bit more welding before taking it back to the test place for retest. I only bought it to tow the mini digger trailer. 420 miles only since 12 months ago. It is only the silencer (muffler) that needs welding (or throwing away which I’m reluctant to do).
***
Anyway, I’ll reply to you before I resume that almost finished task (and the million other tasks required of me. I agree that there is too much squabbling on forums and not enough serious business.
***
The way in which any group of people can choose not to use money is by not buying and selling to each other. Whether it is two people or ten thousand doesn’t matter. Think of a family situation in which the members don’t pay the one who does the cooking etc. Maybe they should. In dealing with the outside world any group has to use the currency of that world, like dollars and so on.
***
So let us imagine my first circle city of ten thousand men, women and children, not one of them with a pocket full of money or bank account (unless they chose it). Everything in that circle city free to eat or use, so no need to have money in pocket. just get on with your life without any money worries. Your life would still be divided between eating, sleeping, working, recreation etc as now, but without the need for money.
***
Want clothes to wear, go to the clothes store, take them, or to the tailor, have them made. Same with everything that city makes. Want food, go to one of many refectories and choose and eat, or order something different. For the x number of hours per day when you choose to work, you cook or clean or grow veg, or fix things or make new things and so on. No need to have a bank, an account, a wallet, an accountant, pay taxes and bills, no need for most laws that are to do with money and so on.
***
All this we can do as soon as we choose in any size of group we choose. Our pooled resources will determine exactly how each group goes about this. Each person or family entering this kind of agreement will have different resources, and the financial resources in particular will determine what they can buy to make their chosen lifestyle possible. Those with my level of wealth could choose quite a grand setup, others might get help from a richer group.
***
So let us assume two or more groups were set up with this in mind. They could then choose to deal with each other on a money basis or moneyless (give and take), which saves on accounting, and also allows an interconnectedness with mutual exchange of personell, such that they are practically one group, but still autonomous also. These groups, small or large will make and mend for the outside world and gain money from the outside world for their goods and services, for which they will be paid in real money. Each group can then decide what to buy from the outside world for the members, and stock the shelves accordingly.
***
There will be no need for the regular businesses to set up stores in these groups. If a member wants something from an outside store and gets the agreement of the group then it will be bought for them, but the group would have to be satisfied that this purchase was justifiable. Otherwise the person would have to find some other way to fund the purchase. I would like to think the circle cities individually or as a network would try to make everything rather than buy it in, butt there would be no point of making anything complex that would take say a million person hours if it could be bought for the equivalent of a day’s wages.
***
What they can of course do, as they become richer by selling what they produce, is to buy up the companies that make the things they require. Small companies are cheap enough to buy and can be run just the same but provide goods and services are basic cost. Or those companies can be run with unpaid labour or part money part goods and services, in effect becoming part of the group so that the goods and services become free to the group.
***
As the new network becomes bigger it can buy up bigger companies. Ultimately the new network could buy up all the companies and all the land, all the houses and everything and then the whole world would be moneyless. But to say let us abolish money then everything else follows, I think, is a nonsense. Who are we to abolish everyone elses money and assets? And why wait for an agreement from everyone before starting down this road? Capitalism didn’t wait, it just developed, and we can just develop this new way of organising ourselves. And that is my aim. I am funding it as much as I am able, but I need others to join me.
***
It has to be done on a voluntary basis, and I am volunteering. I am choosing to make my wealth and experience available to others. Now I need those others.

Cheers,

Bob
***

PS. If you are still not convinced that it has to be this way round could you please point to any flaws in my argument. If there are any real flaws I need to know what they are so I can try to find solutions. Also, if you do want to visit, with your daughter, you are most welcome to a free stay here, now or any time in the future, we’ll find free accommodation for you.

From: Bob Wilkinson
To: robertcircle1@yahoo.co.uk
Sent: Tuesday, 28 July, 2009 7:09:08
Subject: Discussions on moneylessness

Hi Bob.
****

This is the other Bob from the Anthology blog with it’s discussion of a moneyless society. It seems that all our comments have been erased, leaving only the original comment.

http://anthologyoi.com/blogish/beyond-the-socialist-dream-a-money-less-society-part-i.html

Anyway, I live in California and would love to travel to Swansea Wales, but I can’t do so in the near future. I’m a 56 year old single father of a 12 year old girl and have to stick close to home for obvious reasons. Robin Cox and a few others on the site seemed to have something to say, but I was concerned by the squabbling between a couple of the bloggers.

You describe circular cities that will each choose to or not to use money. I’m not sure if each city can be completely independent and not need something from outside its resources, with other circular cities that would choose or not to choose to use money. I think everybody would have to have a moneyless society or it just won’t work. I’m of the persuasion that it will take either a cataclysmic event or renaissance where the light bulb goes on in most people’s minds for any type of moneyless society to occur. I know your time is limited to what you can reply to, but I wanted to touch bases with you anyway.

Send me some links as I love to look at other’s ideas.

hope all is well with you,

Bob

PS. Anyone can join in.

Your circular city concept that operates as an independent entity with little or no trade from the outside world, would take a great in money to get started. What about electricity, water, and other the infrastructure, and the desire for contact with others outside the city through the media, music, television, movies, etc. that we are so used to now? Perhaps you envision each circular city having residents who have the talent and necessary materials to provide a similar infrastructure and entertainment as we have now; I’m not sure. It seems a successful circular city would serve as an example for others to follow, and I stress the word successful. All the members would have to relocate themselves, sell all their worldly possessions to help fund the initial effort, and then the residents of the city would have to achieve a level of happiness that would cause them to want to stay. If people became unhappy, or disillusioned, then the city would fall apart. I’m not sure if this is what you envision as a way to get it started or not, but I’m just thinking about what your actual plan may be and it’s pros and cons.

Hi Guys, Sorry about the vanishing comments, I’ve restored them from a backup.

1. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on April 20, 2010 at 11:16 am.

   Aaron,

   You are the only person who has posted to this forum who seems to have any control of its contents. You restored the contents last August when somehow all the contents were deleted. The members of this forum who want to have a serious discussion about a money-less society are getting frustrated with the posts by Joram Arentved. His post are consistently off topic and have nothing to do with the issues we would like to discuss. He has offended some of the participants and is making our discussions difficult to maintain and keep on topic. Is there any way you can delete his comments, and prevent him from posting to this forum in the future? Let’s have a vote.

   Thanks,

   Bob

   Reply to Bob Wilkinson
   1. Aaron posted the following on April 23, 2010 at 9:49 am.

      Hi Bob,

      I’ve banned his IP address and removed all of his comments. I’m also going through and removing comments addressed directly to him.

      Reply to Aaron

Joram,

I’m not sure I understood a word of what you wrote. I wonder if you could rephrase it.

Cheers,

Bob
***

Joram,

I still don’t understand. Sorry.

Cheers,

Bob
***

Robin,

Thought you maybe interested in these couple of links, first is a video by Lydon LaRouche, he talked about a new world economic system not dissimilar to the ‘resource based society’book in PDF format, the second link provides the download, this book is full of practical ideas towards our imminent change.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef1Fsf7ovZA

http://resourcebasedliving.blogspot.com/2009/04/world-without-money-free-ebook.html

Best,
Danny aka Sixpm

1. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on September 18, 2009 at 4:29 pm.

   Here are a couple of links that may be of interest to all. One explains the Zeitgeist Movement, the activist arm of the Venus Project:

   http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/The%20Zeitgeist%20Movement.pdf

   There are similarities to the world-without-money-free-ebook, but I think the explainations are more detailed.

   And this is an almost 2 hour video, Zeitgeist Addendum, on you tube narrated by Peter Joseph, and contains an interview of Jacques Fresco, the founder of the Venus Project. Many of the you tube comments aren’t in support of the movie, which indicate that it will take a long time for a money-less society to become a reality. But you have to start somewhere.

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gKX9TWRyfs

   Peter Joseph has distanced himself from the 9/11 conspiracy, that was the subject of the Zeitgeist 1.

   Reply to Bob Wilkinson

Now that we have all admitted that we are not perfect, can we please get on with the job at hand, running the planet as though it matters?

In all humbleness,

Bob
***

1. Sixpm posted the following on September 19, 2009 at 11:02 pm.

   Bob,

   I am working my part in the building a better planet. Like I originally stated, what I’ve posted is a small contribution. One of the main reason why the planet is in the mess it is in now is because people’s denial of their spiritual nature. This basic fundamental knowledge has been deliberately taken out buy the controlling elites in our knowledge or education system, their intention is make sure we don’t know who we are and what we are capable off. Our ‘establishments’ are laying down laws, rules and regulations to make sure that we think and behave like a slave, the monetary system was a perfect system of slavery, hence we are talking about this moneyless society issue.

   I believe if we don’t have a basic understanding that we are essentially a soul/spirit living a physical existence, that our purpose is all about spiritual growth. All physical aspects are just tools to aid this growth. You may think for this moment what has this to do with the discussion of what this forum is all about? But unless we come to terms of our true identity, we will always see ‘others’ are something different to us, this separation is the initial cause of conflict in our world. We are all intrinsically linked, the good, the bad or the ugly are all part of us, the ignorance displayed by all humanity are all part of our total collective consciousness, something that we cannot denied.

   Dr. David R. Hawkins’s study on the field of human consciousness is a proof of this, biologist Rupert Sheldrake’s study of Morphic Resonance is also a confirmation that we all affects one another.

   What you and other with similar mindsets have started a mental revolution, this is already taken effect, we as a species do operate on the same frequency of thought. What you, me and others who thinks the same way will eventually affects all humanity, as once the point of critical mass is reached, then mass awareness is certain when this balance is tipped.

   I am not having an argument with you here, if that is what you feel, I would like apologize for I have no intention whatsoever, as I only mean well. All I’m doing here is just lay down my thoughts and hope is of use as that is how we all grow, by learning from each other.

   If we are not able to open our hearts to love, to forgive and to accept one another, and that we are all just one big family, how could we have ever lasting peace? We must let go of all our differences and to embrace, to encompass and to love all humanity unconditionally, then our future is certain.

   Love and peace.
   Danny

   Reply to Sixpm

my name is anthony poole i have just sent a proposal to my senator in alabama. in my letter of proposal i laid a lot of ideas out there for them to try . if you do an indepth study and you see what 90 % of all crimes commited are and why you will see that most all of these cases resort to some sort of money issue. so here is what i proposed i addressed the wont work chaos business thats not true . just because we have a moneyless system doesnt mean we wont have law. of ocurse most laws will change therefore releasing 50% of the jailed population that 50% im speaking of is over what … child support ? yup its true greedy or vegeful exs help create this problem i know i been there. if you remove money it fixes a lot of stuff but not all your still going to have a stupid drunk somewhere get messed up and kill someone im sure from time to time . here was another part i mentioned you can develop a rotating system that takes people from other trades or educational areas that would no longer exist retrain them into another field require min hours per week promote family life by cuttint time at work down from the current situation you really would not have to work harder if everyone pulls thier weight just as now wellwhat are you loosing by removing money? infact you would gain time away from work keeps you from burn out anyway and strees thats kinda the point to a moneyless system . yes even the homeless should be expected to participate for the new house they just recieved even if its cutting the grass for the county. or put them to work into recycling. promote people growing thier own foods to help the farmers out some as well. all you would have to would be show up at your job less for the same or better gains and you will feel better without the stress.come up with a system that uses your social security number as when you go to work (heres the equality thing addressed)new hybrid or electric car every 5 years recycle clothes, paper,metals , produce alternative fuels hey now theres a hot new job thats kinda interesting to know . but in this plan you would have a lot more freedom to go with this new system and that my friend is what we should be about. i mean the only people who would argue with this over stature are greedy control freaks that think they have that right well you dont get in step or step out of line . thesee people are generaly insecure people that dont feel comfortable with the idea we are all created equall in the eyes of god . they think their better because of thier education or, whatever it is that makes them think they deserve more stature than others my friend i have lots i could say to you guys but i wont . the way i see it if the doctor knows how to fix bodies and i know how to fix that doctors ac we all will win no matter if you pump gas for a living. as long as you work what does it really matter what you do or are educated to do.we are all headed the same way if you wanna ride get on if not peace walk then. in short this is what i came up with 1 abolish money effective instantly publicly announce this took place announce everything is now free just show up to work as normal until the bugs are worked out 2 stop all forclosures and evictions by law effective instantly .3 house homeless first 4set up comunications with employment offices for rotations to begin 5 require all able bodies to perform thier duties unto this nation 6 rework the laws so they actually work instead of a financial gain which creates corrupt officials normal laws apply 7 fines will go away taxes gone crime drastically lowered you just solved 90% percent of all problems by making things free to all and promoted brotherhood among men . and all these bs laws that are on the books for gain are gone only thing stopping that is people who want to feel powerful got news for you my friend the day you become powerful enough to take me on man to man is the day you will earn my respect until then you have no business in control of anything because you obviously have a mental problem. thats my opinion on that people just dont like to be controled like that in general its not how we are meant to be.we are meant to be equals in this world your skin made from the same stuff mine is . and unless you have the almighty say so your just another man or woman whichever the case maybe.im sure one could find argument that we as a society are not ready for a moneyless system but i ask you is it better to starve in a poor economy or thrive in a moneyless system whats happening right now thats a very real fact of life to face. there is no room for jealousy and envy in this system no need for it as why would anyone want to see that out of another human anyways unless your messed up in the head? we were not put here to act this way .im sure if we all put our heads together we could come up with a rational solution to any snag this could throw i mean if you cant work 30 hours a week doing something then you are disabled anyway outside of that you would be lazy and should not expect someone to pull your weight there would be something for everyone to do and it would not require much effort i mean come on who could not do 30 hours at thier current job in exchange for utilities , car , home , clothes , net, festivals, vacation time, more time with family, lower crime rate, walking down the roughest possible neighborhood without fear of getting shot and robbed , better kids in the long run because mom and dad around more ,this rat race lifestyle we live now is nothing but and has always been trouble from the start.there will still be teachers but oh heres how we handle the education of that doctor over the education over highschool drop out… you train them you share your knowledge you help people become more than they are with it so they might one day step in and help in the very same field i mean after all everything is free so should education some of these folks didnt have a chance they were born into finacial problems and couldnt go to school or got preg early should they be condemed for that? i dont think so i think they should have the same chance to progress no matter if its later on in life but as we know when you are already paycheck to paycheck there is not much chance of that with money around. this young lady made a mistake ok she should not be thrown to the wolves like that. but you get my point thanks for the ear and i would like to see an org started to educate people in this area to ill be ready to sign up in a flash. ps sorry for all typos guess you know what job i wouldnt be good at lol

Hi all,

I really like the idea of contacting Michael Moore, but personally would like to see the movie first, so as to prepare a letter (with pack of materials of course) which succinctly explains the idea of an RBE as a logical progression from capitalism. However, I live in Germany and don’t know when the film is coming out. I’m prepared to wait, but if anyone is willing to put together a letter who has seen the film, I’d be willing to help make the letter as effective as possible. It would also be a nice idea to have it come from (be signed by) hundreds or even thousands of people.

Cheers
Toby

1. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on October 8, 2009 at 4:38 pm.

   Toby,

   I listened to Peter Joseph’s recent web address at
   http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?Itemid=1904
   and I did hear him mention Michael Moore, and to contact as many people in positions of influence as possible. I have already sent Michael links to the Zeitgeist Movement. I don’t know if he’s looked at anything I’ve sent though because he hasn’t responded to me. It seems to me that if Michael thinks that capitalism is the evil he proposes in his film, he would put his money where his mouth is and get involved. Peter answers many emails sent to him concerning how to get a Resource Based Economy started, when, where, how, who, etc. on the October 7th, 2009 address. He goes into great detail.

   Cheers and Peace,

   Bob W.

   Reply to Bob Wilkinson

I love the idea of a moneyless society. I particularly like the idea of a ‘Time-Bank’ system, where I can ‘deposit’ 8 hours work on somebody’s garden and ‘withdraw’ 8 hours of somebody’s work decorating.
People think that one person’s ‘hour’ is worth more than another person’s ‘hour’, and this is where we, as a society, need to mature our thinking. One man’s hour is worth another man’s hour – period. He may argue that he’s invested the time in studying, or skill-learning; in my mind that entitles him to deposit his hours doing something he loves (if you don’t love it why did you choose that profession?).
Remember, nobody is better than anyone else – or ‘not-as-good’ as anyone else; all that is stuff we learned from our parents, friends, teachers.
If a person slow hours, that’s fine, why should we all live life at the same pace? It just makes your life spin by faster.
I like Joram Arentved’s vision of life, and would like to hear more.

You guys need to stop fighting and chill out. That’s another product of the monetary system by the way. Divide the people and rule. Let’s all get our minds together and make this world a living and prosperous reality…
K

1. Robert Howes posted the following on April 1, 2010 at 12:44 pm.

   Hi Kyriakos,

   My email address is robertcircle1@yahoo.co.uk
   ***
   Please ask me any questions. Most questions are already on the web, but ask anyway.
   ***
   I am making progress slowly, but that is okay. We’ll speed things up later.

   Cheers,

   Bob
   ***

   Reply to Robert Howes

Hi you guys,

I have posted the link to this site on another site that is dedicated to moneylessness(www.justfortheloveofit.org)and there might be visitors from that site, so please get real.
***
I didn’t start this blog but I agree with evolving to a moneyless world as quickly as possible. There are those who choose to live without money and those who have no jobs and no other legal way to get money, so I see this as our first task, to create jobs that create wealth in the many forms that we all enjoy (food, clothes, housing, medical treatments, education, transportation and so on).
***
At the same time as creating this new wealth we must also make sure it is distributed more equally, and that more distribution is of wealth directly, not through money. We must reserve money for necessity, like buying land.

Cheers,

Bob
***

All questions answered. Ask away…

This discussion is very interesting. I am one of the earliest to support this “moneyless” discussion. This can really be possible to eliminate money-system. I hope we can achieve this dream soon.

Whoever authored this discussion, I am wishing you the best.

Hi Ali,

Nice to see you back.

K

Hi guys,

Sorry to not get back to you for a while, I’m getting very busy just now. Today plumbing, and I’m not a plumber. Much other practical work to catch up with. I could pay others to do the work but my income isn’t great. Keep nagging me and I will tell you all the plan, by and by. Mind you, I could just tell you how to create your own plan. It is simple. You tell yourself that you are going to change the world, then you tell everyone you meet. You have to be convinced. They don’t have to be. You can try to convince them but they will ask how, and when you tell them your plan they will shoot it down. Listen carefully to what they say and think up ways around the problems they present you with. Then tell everyone your new, improved plan. They will shoot that one down too. Same process, listen, act, tell, get shot down, listen, act, tell, and so on for year after year if need be until your plan is almost perfect. That’s how I did it.

Cheers,

Bob
***

1. Sixpm posted the following on April 9, 2010 at 11:16 pm.

   I love your spirit Bob, thank you for sharing.

   Best,
   Danny

   Reply to Sixpm
   1. Robert Howes posted the following on April 10, 2010 at 3:48 am.

      Thanks Danny,

      If you or anyone want to know my conclusions then you’ll find some of them at:

      http://www.justfortheloveofit.org/blog

      Look in the replies to the last few of Mark’s blogs. Mark got upset with me when he didn’t understand my ideas. He is a young man with much yet to learn, but he’s getting there.

      I have some plumbing to get on with now. Connecting a log burning boiler to the house plumbing so that next Winter will be a lot warmer than the last seven.

      Cheers,

      Bob
      ***

      Reply to Robert Howes
      1. Sixpm posted the following on April 10, 2010 at 4:01 am.

         Thanks Bob, I know I’m ready for the moneyless society and waiting. My participation is by being conscious and this positivity will project and manifest itself in time as we are much more powerful than we all believed in. Thanks for the link and I’ll spend time to enjoy reading it. Good luck with your plumbing.

         Best,
         Danny

         Reply to Sixpm
      2. Robert Howes posted the following on April 10, 2010 at 6:19 am.

         Hi Danny,

         I just stacked the firewood that I brought here months ago. It’ll dry out more now against a bank facing the sun.
         ***
         I’ve done the inside plumbing. I have to work outside next where the (40kw) boiler and two 1,000 litre accumulator tank are. They wouldn’t fit in the house. I’ll roof them over soon. I’ll get them working first.
         ***
         I just want to add that creating a moneyless society will probably need to be done in stages, not all at once. Moneyless communities that provide their members with their needs whilst trading using barter and money with the outside world is a good way to start.
         ***
         Networks of such communities can give and take freely as well as sharing members. We have a long way to go. Keep on keeping on.

         Cheers,

         Bob
         ***

         Reply to Robert Howes

Plan Two

Plan Two is complementary to plan one. Whereas plan one is for anyone, plan two is aimed at involving the better off members of society.
***
Plan two is based around the idea of getting the money that has flowed to the rich and stuck there to flow back to everyone else, without it impoverishing the well off. Anything sold to the rich that holds its value does not make the buyer less rich. In this case though, not only does it not make the rich any less rich, it improves their lives in many ways.
***
I call this concept the circle city. The optimum design is a circle but it could be any other shape, so long as it encircles the area of land reserved for growing the bulk of the fruit and veg eaten by the citizens.
***
The optimum size would be a two thousand acre circle (or other shape) of flat land with the building around the edge, all set in a total of thirty thousand acres of land, mostly forest.
***
So there we have the essence, a single building with more than one function. A pleasant place to live, that grows its own food, keeps its citizens healthy and comfortable, provides them all with meaningful activities and so on. The building, by surrounding the crop land, keeps out the creatures of the forest that would eat the crops meant for humans, and also creates and maintains the forest for the creatures (deer, rabbits, even slugs), all but the flying creatures, that can be dealt with in other ways.
***
By making a habitat so expensive that only the rich can live there we also create an environment that attracts the rich, who because of lack of need for money are far less likely to rob and steal from one another. This might sound prejudiced, but it is not. I am from a poor background but an honest one. There are many less than honest poorer people who are not satisfied with what they can earn who instead go out robbing other poor folks, or they rob the rich. Or they sell drugs or go in for any of a thousand scams. It is no wonder the rich want to keep to themselves. One day there may be no money and no need of it, but for the foreseeable future there will be a small number of rich and a larger number of poor, and the circle city will help the rich and poor alike, as will the business collectives as described in plan one.
***
The details of the circle cities will be determined by the members, but I would try to set a high standard right from the start. I have a detailed set of designs in mind. Quite simple and robust and designed to please the majority every moment of their lives.

Also, the workforce in these communities will be highly flexible, many learning something of the running of all the one hundred businesses and actively participating in some or all of them. Each community will also teach the subjects that are not adequately covered in school. Not just the trades such as plumbing, but languages and geography and customs so that Irish representatives can hold their own all over the world, and sell its products there.
***
The list of businesses below is far short of all the potential businesses. Each group would develop a business based on its own needs. As the group grew it would become obvious that it either had to call on the services of others or develop a particular business. Each new business in that group would make money for the group at the same time as cutting the costs of that group, making it more competitive. Different groups would have a different mix of trades and businesses. Free or very cheap to the members and very reasonably priced to other groups and individuals. I have only shown a representative 100 businesses out of thousands of possibilities. Each group will democratically decide which businesses it goes in for.

K, if you can block this Joram, please do. Please delete also all his comments so that people may understand the discussions here without distractions from his senseless comments.
This issue of a moneyless economy is very important for the existence of mankind – a big leap for the maturity of mankind. I have learned many things – pros and cons of moneyless system.
Please don’t let Joram spoil this serious matter.

Hi everyone,

OK, let us get back to talking about a moneyless future society. Is it desirable, is it attainable, and if so how can it be brought about, and in what time scale?
***
I think that it is desirable in the long term but that we need to use money over the next few decades in order to set up a new system that thereafter will not need money.
***
That para answers the questions very superficially. It is only my opinion that a moneyless world is desirable. If pressed I would say that the present money world is doing such a bad job of distributing goods and services that moneylessness would seem to be a better option. No-one knows if the whole world can go moneyless and stay advanced. It might mean going back to a primitive way of life and that might not be sustainable.
***
Before we can go back to that kind of moneyless system in which we forget about metals and electronics and plastics and cars and so on we’d need to run down the numbers of humans to stone age levels. But would that solve anything? Would it not just all start up again?
***
I think a sensible approach is needed here. A moneyless future should be our goal, but in the meantime we need to use all the money we can get to buy all the land we can afford and we need to run all the businesses we can so that as a movement of groups we become predominant all over the world. When we own most of the land and grow most of the food and the future fuel (trees) and make most of the machinery and interact with the rest of the world via money but with ourselves using no money then we’ll have gone as far as we really need to. If there are still regions of the world that use money but there is no longer any poverty then our work will have been done.
***
Does everyone agree? By the way, who did start this threed? Are you still here?

Cheers,

Bob
***

PS. Any who come and stay at our small community can be in at the start of this transition. It is starting, here, now.

All right, all the Joram nonsense has been removed and most of the replies to his nonsense were removed as well.

1. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on April 23, 2010 at 9:58 am.

   Aaron,

   Thank you very much. We all appreciate it!

   Bob

   Reply to Bob Wilkinson

Since we are up against the constant barrage of economic programming from the likes of: The Wall Street Journal, Business Week, Money, Bloomberg Report, and the daily economic reports on the radio and television, it seems that if there were a publication, electronic or otherwise, that could be made available, it would help to win the hearts and minds necessary to make the money-less conversion. I am convinced I won’t see much, if any, change in my lifetime. I talk about the benefits of a money-less society with my daughter, which maybe is the best we can do at this point. I sure didn’t get that type of information from my parents. I think the Venus Project and The Free Economy (http://www.justfortheloveofit.org/) are the greatest forces in spreading the concept of a cashless economy, but their reach is limited. If we preach to the converted we cannot gain the necessary momentum. No matter how much I love to talk and think about how much better life would be without the unnecessary money transactions that we have to suffer through whenever we do anything, many of my friends have grown tired of me bringing up the subject, so I don’t anymore; they think that it is a pie-in-the-sky concept, or is communism, against human nature etc. and utterly dismiss even considering thinking about it. Those of use who would gladly give up their bank accounts and ownership documents in exchange for a money-less economy have vastly different ideas on the way from here to there. Somehow, and I don’t know how, we need to become more visible. I would love to see a course offered at the college level, or even better in high school, where the concepts of a resource, or money-less society, were presented in a sensible understandable way. I understand that getting this accomplished would be extremely difficult. Not enough of us live in the same geographic location where we could pool our resources. Even if you take all the members of the Venus Project, The Free Economy, and others, there would be less than 1,000,000, (an overestimate) which is only 0.000147% of the 6.8 billion of us on this planet, hardly a percentage that can make any difference. Michael Moore’s movie, Capitalism a Love Story, is the closest thing to a mainstream production that even showed how horrible the banking industry is, but he offers no solutions. I emailed him at his private email address, bailout@michaelmoore.com, and asked him if he had heard of the Venus Project and let him know that I thought it would be great if he put his money where his mouth is, but I never heard back. Anyway, that’s all for now.

Hi Bob and Danny,

We need a plan, and I have a plan, and I am putting it into practice, all by myself until others join me. And since they are reluctant to get involved without being paid in money to do so then that is part of the plan too.
***
It seems contradictory to pay people to go moneyless and create a moneyless economy, but it is not. Within a money economy in which most people think the way Bob’s friends do there is no choice. You have to pay participants enough for them to live. Not necessarily in money alone. Part cash, part goods and services.
***
Imagine for a moment that we had a company up and running that could supply each worker all that they needed. We wouldn’t have to pay them in money at all. If the company could supply half the workers’ needs then only half wages need be paid. Cash or kind in inverse ratio.
***
We don’t yet have more than my own company and my own needs. So I am working towards a doubling of that by starting a second company with one other worker. Our needs will be twice my needs. Accommodation, food and so on. Can I find one other person who I can pay what I can afford? And will that person work hard enough and/or smart enough to create as much as his or her wages? I don’t see why not.
***
One other person can live in the house we already own and work on the land we already own. (Malcolm owns the house, I own the land next to it and other plots too). If we buy and sell trees and shrubs and other things on the local markets or even door to door we should make enough money to continue. After 12 months we can double up again. Two new businesses, two new workers. We’ll need to decide on a variation of the tree and shrub business plus my house renting out business, or two completely different businesses, it hardly matters which so long as the money is coming in. In the early days of few businesses almost everything will cost money. We need to accept this. To go off at a tangent (freeconomy or Venus Project) would do us no good at all.
***
As the numbers of businesses increases, including our own school/university of societal change where we teach what we have learned, we’ll be able to replace a part of our wages with goods and services. For instance, if one of our businesses fixes old cars and sells them, there will always be cars for our members/workers, and their families to use, either for free or for very little. If we make our own biodiesel then we’ll have cheap or free fuel. If we modify cars and vans to burn wood instead of oil products we’ll have these available to us, and our woodworking businesses will have offcuts of wood for us to use. If we run our own bus and taxi services even our non driving members, including their children can have free rides.
***
Our food growing companies will be able to supply all members and their families with fruits and vegetables, and our food processing companies will be able to add canned, bottled, frozen and dried foodstuffs to the list so that shopping in regular stores can be reduced still further. Money is also needed for business activities, for instance the necessary tools and machines for successfully growing crops. Our own engineering companies can make such equipment and we get the use of it free of charge or very cheap. Same with clothes. If we make clothes and also repair old clothes that we collect, everyone can have free or cheap clothes.
***
The same applies to each business, the more diverse our businesses are the more we can cut the costs of living for all members at the same time as providing reasonably priced goods and services to the public, using local labour and thereby reducing imports from other parts of the world. Within a few years others would start realising that this model works and we can start doubling groups as well as doubling the businesses in a group. Each group would use its resources mostly to grow itself, then as it became larger and more successful it could afford to help new groups to start. All this sounds too much like capitalism to socialists and communists, but they will have to change their thinking if they want to be involved just the same as capitalists will have to change their thinking if they don’t want to lose out to these new, sleeker, smarter businesses that can compete with even the Chinese.
***
There is no real limit to the growth of this new business model, and it can be done at different financial levels with poorer and richer communities of businesses trading with each other to mutual advantage. Even cashless groups will be able to join in and get their needs met without the need for cash at all. The members of such groups will not need to own anything to have the use of everything.
***
Money causes mayhem, but it can be a force for good too if it is used in these ways. Gradually money can be reduced and reduced until it no longer threatens out very existence, and then it can be reduced still further until there is no need for it at all. All this can haven in our lifetime, or at least the beginnings of it can. Show this to your children, see if they understand it and agree with it.

It is damp here today after many days of sunshine, but it is Bright enough.

Cheers,

Bob
***

I think there have been a lot of ideas/suggestions/hypotheses laid down above about the pros and cons of a moneyless society. May I suggest that someone should summarize all the important points mentioned. At least we can see more clearly the picture. We can then speculate if this system can be feasible or not.
We can even do some plans of action thereafter.

Just finished watching this:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4020719354420953428&ei=oc18Sf-RHp64qAP-3pmzBA&q=The+Gig+Is+Up:+Money,+the+Federal+Reserve+and+You#

This guy really exposes money for what it is. Although he doesn’t say to eliminate money, I can find no other conclusion. It’s over an hour long, and reinforces much of what I have been reading. I believe that the more we know about the money system and how it really works, then we will be more convinced to eliminate it. More of us need to know what is presented in this video. Maybe I can get some of my friends to watch it. Let me know what you think.

Bob W

1. Danny Chau posted the following on May 2, 2010 at 1:01 am.

   This is a great video Bob, and I’ve already send it out to all my friends and family. Towards the end of the lecture, the speaker mentioned plenty enough about the change of our consciousness and it is the basic fundamental core of what is needed to make the shift or the change that this world requires. He mentioned about ‘greed’, so as long we still gripped by the basic instinct, then nothing could change.

   The irony is that ‘we’ as a collective having to endure ‘great’ pressure from the ‘elites’ in order to ‘rebound’ from our sleep and rise to resist this ‘pressure’ from within. This has always been part of our make up and change over our ‘human’ history.

   The journey of our physical life is hidden with a massive message, and this was never about the physical aspect of our reality, but a spiritual one. Until we come to accept that we are more than just flesh and blood, we will struggle to live beyond the game this self imposed limitation.

   Have you ever wondered the very thought of ‘I am’ is in fact that the you the ‘I’ is the divinity itself? As we all are, all part of this divinity – only this would allow the divinity seeing this illusory world from infinite perspectives to experience outside of the ‘I AM’ ness, which is quite ‘lonely’.

   The truth is between all the illusion, this includes our ‘thoughts’, consciousness and all the mayhem within our illusory physical reality.

   I think the change will not happen until the majority of people (thoughts and consciousness) is tired and had enough of this unfair, unjust and stupid system/life they’re ‘playing’.

   Danny

   Reply to Danny Chau
   1. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on May 2, 2010 at 1:26 am.

      Danny,

      I agree that the change will now happen until the majority of people get sick and tired of being taken advantage of by the banking elite who have had their way for the past few hundred years. I hope the the gig is up, as stated in the video. I don’t understand the divinity or the ‘I AM’ ness concept you present, all I can say is that the more that we all know about money, the Federal Reserve, the Rothchilds, and the rest of the money manipulators, the better will be able to reject the monetary system. I believe that if everyone knew the facts that we know, the transition would take place more quickly. We are up against a barrage of daily propaganda, brainwashing, whatever you want to call it, when all you hear about on the radio and TV is money this and money that. Like I mentioned, we need more exposure. The Zeitgeist Movement, The Venus Project, Free Economy are all great organizations, but still we are such a small percentage of the population, that we are insignificant at present. But if exponential doubling will occur, then in 32 months, or cycles, there will be at least 4,294,967,296 of us, enough to make a change. It is best to be hopeful and not give up. People I know are resistant to the idea for whatever reason. People think they will lose their bank accounts and property in such a system. I don’t have all the answers, but I sure have a lot of questions.

      Bob

      Reply to Bob Wilkinson

Bob and Danny,

If you really want answers you need to ask the right questions.
***
I want ten questions from each of you. Don’t try to answer them at this stage. Let us simply try to arrive at agreed upon questions. Once we have done that and we have some major questions and some minor ones too, then we can see what answers we agree upon.
***
Other questions will arise in the process and we can then try to answer those. If we do not do this then we are not taking it seriously and we are wasting time.

Cheers,

Bob
***

Bob,
***

First thing about your comment about taking “it” seriously: I wouldn’t be doing all the research, learning as much as I can about the history of money and how it has its roots in humanity if I weren’t taking “it” seriously. I realize you have a plan and ideas that, in all likelihood, would move us towards a moneyless society, and that you are trying to find people to join you. You are up against the same obstacle that all of us are, simply, how to convince people that removing money from the equation would be in the best interests for all. I think every member of this forum shares that goal. It may be true that the venting we do on this forum can be seen as “wasting time,” but it makes me feel good that there are others out there scattered about the world who share the vision, and for me, that is a good thing.

I think that more awareness is necessary before anyone will decide to participate in any sort of plan. I think there is more awareness now than there was just a couple of years ago, as evidenced by videos like the one I posted a couple of days ago, the growing Zeitgeist movement and others, and we are getting closer to bringing the necessary awareness to others, which is what is needed before any serious project can be initiated. Like Peter Joseph has said, “We are in our infancy.”

As to the 10 questions assignment, I think there is really only one question, and you stated it in your last post: how to convince the overwhelming majority that having a moneyless society is in their best interests? Money seems so normal to most people that they can’t envision a world without it. The money-masters have done a good job of keeping us snowballed for centuries, and we have our work cut out for us.

Enjoying a nice day in sunny California,

Bob

For sure it is not enough to complete the process of transition, but you have to start somewhere. I believe that if everyone knew what we know about the monetary system, and how it is used by a relative few of us as a power vehicle to control the world’s population, it would be a slam dunk to get people involved. Bob H would have all the people he could dream of who would want to join with him, if simply, they knew how we have been all manipulated: sheeple, as Danny put it. I enjoy the process of telling it like it is and think that is what must be done at this point. It will take time, and though I know I won’t live long enough to see a moneyless world, I will play my little role in the process. That’s what we all must do.

Bob

1. Danny Chau posted the following on May 2, 2010 at 8:55 pm.

   I believe we have already started the process for a moneyless society, because ‘we’ (however small a collective) have this same awareness that money no longer serve the rule for the betterment of mankind. This is important because I have been thinking the idea of money is so distorted (to me at least) for a very long time. That I refuse to take part of this mass corruption, for instance, I was asked by my bank manager 12 years ago, that he’ll lend me 100% mortgage to buy two houses/flats for my two younger sons, so when they are old enough, they will each have a house of their own. This idea would sound fine for most in forward planning, as the cost of housing is continuously on the rise. The fact is I never have believed and I have always have been disgusted why on earth that our governments allow people to speculate on our basic right to live? To have a roof over our heads? That we should only make money out of work or in business and not on basic necessities of life. I told my bank manager (Natwest London) exactly my believe, and I’m still happy with my decision now.

   I also know I am not the only one who believe in this, otherwise I wouldn’t be here and if none of you guys had the same set of values. I too come to this site because I search and google it on line. I truly believe it is possible for us to see changes within our lifetime, as I read from lots of sources, I try to be as flexible (mind and consciousness) as possible, that I do research on both physical and non-physical (spiritual) to balance my view and understanding why and what is going on around us.

   Do you know that the earth was oscillating around 8 hertz and is now around 13-14 hertz and still on the increase?

   http://gnosticnotes.blogspot.com/2007/11/earth-frequency-is-increasing.html

   This meant the consciousness is also on the rise, we are all arrived at a very interesting time of our history, and we are here both to witness and to participate this paradigm shift from dark to light.

   So our discussion here is not time wasting, but to flush out our questions, ideas and I’m sure that how everything starts. This world is a creation of ours is it not, everything is literally created first as an idea in our heads first, than we turn it into matter. This is also the proof that we are part co-creators, as our present society IS the very creation from nothing. We have started the process from the dark ages, but we are now walking towards the light, we are leading the way out of the darkness.

   Let’s continue………

   Danny

   Reply to Danny Chau
2. stuart posted the following on May 9, 2010 at 12:21 am.

   I think that there will be millions of people who will have great ideas to transitions a moneyless. Some of them will be as good if not MUCH better than the ideas that are already out there.. All that need be done is to tell them that what is happening in our society now isnt working.. we cant assume that just because they dont know what the problem is, that they are also unintelligent.. When more people know there will be batter ideas..

   Peace,
   Stuart

   Reply to stuart

Hi guys,

I saw Michael Moore’s Capitalism: A Love Story on Saturday night. It’s amazing, you should all watch it.

Bob, I like your plan. Anyway, I will send you an email later today with some of my thoughts.

Thanks,

Kyriakos

Bob,

If you are convinced that you are not going to see a moneyless world then you are accepting the need for a long transition. Do you accept that it should be a planned transition that cannot be moneyless without slowing its own progress?
***
If so, what is wrong with my plan? If you say nothing is wrong with it then we should start to promote it specifically, should we not? If you think my plan is flawed then should we try to improve on it or look at a different plan?
***
Do you also accept that there are many questions, not just the one big one of how do we convince everyone?
***
Please try to stick to questions. Once we have enough of the right questions the answer(s) should be fairly obvious, shouldn’t it/they?
***
There are a whole bunch of questions tied up with peak oil and overpopulation and global climate change and so on. If you watch all 8 of the parts of the most important video etc at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY&feature=player_embedded

you might then think we are doomed. But there are the questions he doesn’t ask that we can ask. See if you can figure them out.

Cheers,

Bob
***

Hi everyone, the reson why the International bankers control the Vatican and all other religions is to counter Islam. They make those religions look just like Islam. But Islam is different. Sorry to tell you all this. I know you are not Muslims.
The reason why you look Islam as not dynamic is because you think it is the same with all other religions. If you are really interested in a moneyless economy, I suggest you study the system of Islam because it is the only system that can abolish money economy.
Sixpm, you have excellent idea on spirituality. But everything is more or less from your own opinion/understanding/obsevation. Islam’s view on spirituality and this material world is taken from God (Allah) Himself – through His Prophet Muhammad. He knows everything about us because we are His creations. You said that we are gods? No, Sir.
Where is Buddhism before Buddha? Christianity before Christ? Good question. There were no Buddhism and Christianity before Buddha and Christ, respectively. But where is Islam before Muhammad? Yes, there is Islam before Muhammad. Islam is the religion of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and all other prophets of God (Allah).
Even in the Bible, you can find all the present practices of Islam as practiced by the Biblical Prophets. But you can never see the practices of those Prophets in the Christianity today or any other religion, except only in Islam. Because all the Prophets did the same thing – Islam. Islam means submission to whatever Allah (God) wills (Prostrations, fasting, and many others). Allah is the name of God. Jesus even call him “Eli, Eli (lama sabachtani)” – Eli, a corrupted name of Allah.
Please do study about Islam so that you may have a correct understanding of humanity and its nature. Then we can get rid of money…I hope you can understand my point. I am not proselytizing my religion here like the followers of other religions. I am here to espouse how we can get rid of money, which no other religion can do, except the principles and philosophies of Islam.
Please do not equate Islam with any other religion.
Study Islam. Islam is for intellectuals. I believe you are not like any other narrow-minded people out there.
This is a basic thing. But to get to the top of the matter, we need to go back to the basics. Islam have been here since your birth, but you still do not know it. All you know is terrorism, Arabs, which the International bankers fed to you so that they can enslave you through their money.

1. Danny Chau posted the following on May 8, 2010 at 10:50 pm.

   Hi Ali,

   I would be very interested to hear what are your views on this:

   http://www.scribd.com/doc/12737933/Cosmic-Drama-by-Alan-Watts

   Best,

   Danny

   Reply to Danny Chau
   1. Ali Chin posted the following on May 9, 2010 at 1:29 am.

      Hello Danny, I have not read all your suggested article (due to eye problems). But I understood it talked about being Godhood of a man. I am sorry, but my belief, as a Muslim, of a God is He is capable of doing anything, which man cannot. You may not believe that God created anything you can see, and cannot be seen. It is really hard to imagine and believe the nature of God and the nature of our Existence through our human comprehension or intelligence. That is why God sent Prophets through time so that man can be taught as to who he is and what is the purpose of his creation – the final prophet being the Prophet Muhammad (Prophet Muhammad was foretold in the Bible by some Prophets, most notably by Moses and Jesus).
      If we rely only to our intelligence, we cannot arrive to a consensus. We need God to explain things for us.
      Mr Robert Howes asked how Islam can take us all to moneylessness. First is unity. We need unity or consensus to achieve moneless society. And only Islam can unite us all. Just imagine the present more than one billion Muslims are one and united in their ideology – with some minor differences between Shia and Sunni schools of thought (which is being fanned by the international bankers to create wars for more profits, otherwise this is easy to resolve). No religion or any ideology can match this. Christianity is divided and the solution to their division is impossible (Please don’t try to argue about this because it is absurd and waste of time to insist that Christianity can be reunited, much more to do something about the problems of mankind).
      Second, Islam has the perfect laws (the Shariah law). This may not be known to anyone here, but Shariah law is perfect to manage the affairs of mankind. And only God can create a perfect/flawless law (Please try to read or study the Islamic laws if you are concern or interested). This is why I believe that God exists. So we have to abide by His laws (this is the meaning of Islam – to submit to the will of God – Allah).

      Reply to Ali Chin

Guys,

I can guarantee you that no religion will take us anywhere. Sorry Ali, that is my opinion.
Religion only breeds fanatism, be it Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hindu you name it.
It has only created wars so far.

There is no God, it’s all in our heads. To make us feel protected. Come on now! What kind of bullshit, excuse my language, is that?

Let’s solve our problems between us first, as humans, and we see how it goes. Fairy tales about Jesus and Mohammed and prophets are very nice but you need only look at the state of the world today and it really shows you that there is nothing out there to help you. Do you really believe in this stories in the 21st century? That’s for our fathers and mothers that were conditioned to live out of fear.

Anyway, let’s get real and do something…

K

Yes Bob, I think that’s a great idea.
My question is the following:
If you have a job that you don’t really like, do not really like your boss and they haven’t paid you for 2 months, what do you do? Is that the result of the capitalist system again?

Thanks
K

1. Robert Howes posted the following on May 4, 2010 at 12:35 pm.

   Hi K,

   Your situation obviously leads you to question the present system. This is good. Keep questioning.

   Cheers,

   Bob
   ***

   Reply to Robert Howes

Well, Roxanne scanned through the information on this blog and she definetely wants to meet with you. She actually suggested meeting with you in the UK when she arrives with Jacque there soon.

Can I forward your details to them with your permission?

K

1. Robert Howes posted the following on May 4, 2010 at 6:03 pm.

   Hi K,

   Yes, certainly you can.
   ***
   I was just chatting with Bob Wilkinson.

   Cheers,

   Bob
   ***

   Reply to Robert Howes
2. Robert Howes posted the following on May 7, 2010 at 11:08 am.

   I am assuming Kyriakos cannot get to a computer with all that is happening in Greece. I hope everything gets sorted out soon.

   Cheers,

   Bob
   ***

   Reply to Robert Howes

Hi Kyriakos,

It got a bit rough in Greece yesterday. Hope you are okay. All over money too. But aren’t most problems? I understand why people want to give up on money. But do they understand that a long transition is necessary?

Cheers,

Bob
***

robertcircle1@yahoo.co.uk

The answers to Danny’s questions will reveal themselves once the majority of people become aware of how the bankers have taken complete control over the issuance of money, and control the politicians they are able to support/bribe, or whatever term you want to use. This centuries old scam has become so embedded into our lives that we see it as a normal part of life. We are unwitting slaves to a few, unconsciously and mindlessly letting the power of money with the consent of corporations and government control almost every aspect of our lives. As a group we are quite unenlightened, and the powers-that-be want to keep it that way. The first thing that must be accomplished is to end the Federal Reserve, and since we are to going to have to use money during the transition, then let governments issue its own medium of exchange until it is finally realized as an obsolete, unnecessary activity, and then we’ll be done with it. Once money is gone, then at some point borders will dissolve because they are basically used for economic reasons. We will no longer have to teach about economics, which will allow for more technical and and psychological research, which will enrich everyone’s lives. Since most crimes are monetary in origin, or involve the theft of property, law enforcement will be less a priority, as there would be no need to steal. I would hope that the psychological benefits of a moneyless society would make people less inclined to violence and excessive drug use, and crime at some point would fade away and not be relevant.

Bob W

Hi guys,

I think it is a mistake to think things are going to get better just as a result of getting worse. I suggest things will get better when we make them get better.

Cheers,

Bob
***

Hi Ali,

Quote:

“I agree with Mr Bob Wilkinson;s approach. More feasible.”

Can you elaborate on that statement?

Cheers,

Bob
***

Dear Ali,

I cannot see any process there. I thought maybe you had seen something that I had not. I chat regularly with Bob Wilkinson online and we discuss ideas (and other things). There are too many unanswered questions in what he wrote. I will discuss it further with him.

Cheers,

Bob
***

I know Danny,

When I talk about Greece I am not talking about the geography, I talk about the spirit that happened to develop in that area. Called Freedom. If you haven’t lived in this envuronment you will never understand. Greeks will probably implement the first moneyless society and so on…

They will never accept the plan set by Capitalist leaders anyway. You will see it happening…

K

Hi K,

I have so many thoughts, on many subjects. I like to think I am logical and rational. It’s a good place to start from. Also compassionate and caring in my own way.
***
Capitalism is not rational or caring, and it leads people astray. It has its own cold logic.

Cheers,

Bob
***

Hi K,

Who are you asking?: “Are you confused my friend?
K”

Cheers,

Bob
***

If I wasn’t, I am now:-]

Are you still puzzled?
K

Hi K,

No, I’m not confused, I’m used to me, I’ve been me for a long time, I can put up with me quite easily.
***
The world might seem confusing to others, I can only speak for myself. I think about others though, and the shit deal they got.
***
I was born poor, but I’ve never really gone without, the way some do. We live in dark times, but interesting times too. Where there is life, there is hope.
***
I have much to occupy me over the coming days, but I will keep an eye on Anthology. When there is a set of relevent questions with which to judge ideas we can then look at ideas.

Cheers,

Bob
***

Ali and Danny, this is not a forum for religious discussion, conversion etc. I know you guys mean well, and even though you feel that if everyone held your religious views we would have world peace, history has shown otherwise. Wars are religious and/or economic in nature, putting both disciplines in the same category. We don’t need that. I’ll give god the benefit of the doubt. I can’t say that one doesn’t exist, but if a god did exist, I don’t think he/she/it would have let some of the atrocities happen on this planet that have. I think it’s great that your religious beliefs have brought you some peace of mind, but I think that it’s really another subject. There is most likely another blog somewhere that would welcome religious discussion where you might find more likeminded people.

Kyriakos, how was your recent meeting with Roxanne and Jacque? I’m interested in what you think of the Venus Project and their ideas. I have listened to many of Peter Joseph’s internet radio broadcasts. You can listen to them here: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/Peter-Joseph

Bob H, I know about your plan, building businesses, and circle cities, and thing they would work great if you could get some more help, and that you have what you consider a process. I may not have a step by step way of getting from here to there, but I believe that if we knew more about the economic system and how we got to the place we are now, it would be inevitable that people would opt for a different way of handling our resources distribution methods, and you would be able to find people much easier. I would consider it, but I live in California and have parental responsibilities.

I have mentioned several books in this blog that I would consider required reading, like Web of Debt by Ellen Brown, http://www.webofdebt.com/, and The Secrets of the Federal Reserve and the Federal Reserve Conspiracy by Eustace Mullins. You can download the Secrets of the Federal Reserve here. http://www.apfn.org/apfn/reserve.htm
People would be completely outraged if they only knew. I was having dinner with relatives and friends last night and found an interested ear, but then I was asked to change the subject because they are tired of hearing me talk about it. Most people just don’t want to know. It’s too painful to know the truth is the only thing I can surmise.

Hope all is well with everyone,
Have a nice Sunday,
Bob W

Robert Howes, can you please give me JUST ONE GOOD REASON to support your disagreement that only Islam can unite all peoples of the world. It is not fair to just disagree without any logical or scientific reason.

Bob Wilkinson, you may be tired of me about Islam – just as your relatives and friends are tired of your Fed Reserve truth. It is really hard to digest the truth if you don’t understand it, or no interest in it.

“I was having dinner with relatives and friends last night and found an interested ear, but then I was asked to change the subject because they are tired of hearing me talk about it. Most people just don’t want to know. It’s too painful to know the truth is the only thing I can surmise.” This is exactly the same with Islam’s truth – the only difference is the scope or dimension. Islam is about all aspects of our lives, and the Fed thing is just IN the economic aspect.

Anyway, as Jesus Christ said in the Bible: “You cannot bear them now.” Jesus said this 2000 years ago, but until now, still many people cannot bear the truth. No wonder the Rothschilds and the Illuminati keep on enslaving us, because we are an easy prey. Cannot understand the simple logic of Islam.

Ali,

Do they not chop off the hands of thieves? Would that be a good reason? In a moneyless world or even a fair world that uses money there would be less or no need to steal, and if all goods belonged to everyone you would only be stealing from yourself.
***
Muslims have overrun whole nations and used every device to force the people to become muslims, and muslims force their beliefs onto their children.
***
Almost certainly there is no god. No need for god. No way god could have come about. God is a delusion. This is sort of proved by the very real fact that different nations at different times have had different gods. Have you studied, as I did as a child, the humanist arguments?
***
Humanists try to understand how the idea of god came about. You should read the book by Grant Alan that I read as a child: The Evolution of the Idea of God. You might find it illuminating. You might reject its findings because your brain has fixed on an idea that cannot be undone.
***
You have beliefs. Beliefs are ideas. Ideas can be false, but they can make the believer feel that their belief is true and any opposing idea must be untrue. I think there is good reason for the brain to work in this way. Not for religious belief but simply to bring certainty to the individual to make them less nervous and more productive. This is likely to give them more children who also carry this trait.
***
I could go on but it is not for me to say why you are wrong so much as for you to say why you are right. And since you cannot prove your god exists you only have your creed and your customs which vary within Islam. Sunnis and Shias hate each other, so I would, if I were you, concentrate your efforts on bringing them together first, if you can.

Cheers,

Bob
***

THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR LETTING ME REACH AT THIS POINT. Peace!

(Islam literally means peace. Peace is all we need. Islam is all we need.)

CHEERS!!! Goodbye and goodluck to your endeavour to abolish money in our system. Rest assured that my heart and mind support this effort.

1. Sixpm posted the following on May 11, 2010 at 1:09 am.

   Hi Ali, I’m sorry to see that you are so disappointed, no matter who says what, you should still be who you are and should not get deterred just because someone said something you don’t like or wanted to hear. That is a part of our spiritual growth, don’t you think? If there is a God, then why do you think the purpose of ‘us’ here, and why he made us the way we are?

   I would still continue to be your friend if you wanted to, my email address is dannychau7@gmail.com.

   Hope you will change your mind, because what we’re doing here is about ‘our’ world, and you are part of it.

   Best,
   Danny

   Reply to Sixpm

Danny,

I disagree that the system isn’t the problem. I think it is. People are not perfect, far from it, but they are a product of a flawed system.
***
It is bound to be this way. Money divides us into haves and have nots. Those with power through money will try to keep it that way. Therefore we with less money need to pool our resources so that we are powerful enough to stand up to them.
***
If we are then on equal footing we can change their thinking too. We must combine economically in the shorter term so that in the longer term we can learn to live well without money.

Cheers,

Bob
***

Glad to see you have a sense of humor Danny. It may be the only thing that will get us through to the other side, whatever that may be.

Bob

1. Danny Chau posted the following on May 13, 2010 at 11:04 am.

   Unfortunately Bob, too many people are still in fear of God, fear of the retribution that they may have to face, because they have not the courage nor the wisdom to see past our basic primal instinct. I was born a Christian but I’ve been asking questions since I was about 7, as I remembered the church had a poster and it stated people who don’t believe in Christ the lord will be condemned to hell. My reaction then was what about in places where there are no churches or missionaries, then that isn’t fair to those people. Anyway I left the church when I was 12 and pursuit Spiritualism and now I know there is only ONE God and that is ‘me’. (This ‘me’ is refer to everyone of us who aware of the ‘I’ existence), it is this consciousness who is playing the game of hide and seek.

   We have ‘created’ all the problem that we are facing just for the hell of it, because there is no reason to ‘be’ otherwise.

   Best,
   Danny

   Reply to Danny Chau

Hi Q,

” a moneyless society is the only way to go.”

Do you mean as a goal? And if so, how might we reach that goal?

Cheers,

Bob
***

1. q_nologi posted the following on May 15, 2010 at 9:43 am.

   Proactively and out of necessity… Children are the most important thing on this earth, second… the elderly. Lastly… the planet. We here in the center are the working class and should be taking care of all of it.
   War, Prejudice, Subjugation, Executions, Torturing, Hatred, Crime, Poverty, Sin, Greed, Immoral Legislative Practices, Humankind, Human Nature … are all at fault for our possible demise.
   As I see it, there should only be two types of employment… one to better humankind and one to better the earth. Health, food, shelter and education should come free to anyone who participates within these parameters. If you become criminal… you remain criminal and will not receive. We give to many rights to the disobedient.
   Life needs to about the good being rewarded, not the bad being forgiven.
   As for where do we start… with the children. Only by living vicariously through our children’s resourcefulness will we be able to achieve this goal.

   Reply to q_nologi

This was recently posted on: http://www.zeitgeistmediaproject.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNa_r92tdTM

There are other postings there that include music and video. Check it out and tell your friends.

hope you are all doing well,

Bob W.

Listen, and listen good. I have been thinking about this moneyless society personally for some time now. I have it designed in my head. I have gone over many of the benefits, pitfalls and how to overcome them. I have pondered how to implement such a thing also. I have gone into great detail with this. But I have also come to the conclusion that the elite powers that be, the governments behind the governments (yes, most democracy is a diversion) simply would not allow it.

My thoughts have reached a singularity on this issue. The only way it would ever become a reality is if you let the ruling elite of today OWN it. The people we are talking about are the kind of people that have so much money that money for them means less than they thrill of ownership.

it is power that they seek. If you can get them interested in a new kind of power and sell them on the idea that they will be supreme rulers in this newly designed society, then you will appeal the the maniacal greed machine that they are.

They will happily fund the birth of such a place. (yes, it will cost money to experiment with on a small scale at first) They will take sick pleasure is sitting back and watching it grow, boasting to their friends that they own something unique and unattainable by anyone else.

Some of their other friend will grow envious of this, they will desire to start their own……

After some time, the factions will unite as war is no-longer profitable and eventually the money reliant society will fail to feed the inflation monster and come knocking at the door asking to join too.

Now, you may think I am looking too deep into this but thats because you arnt looking deep enough into things….

I have most of the fundamentals of how this works wizzing around in my head and all the pieces fit together quite well.

If anyone would like to or has the means to do something about this then contact me tommygun3nz@hotmail.com

It can be dont but it requires some big thinking, some political clout and an area of land around the size of a small state with a population that is willing. It also requires that, should it fail or be disbanded, everyone involed, every single person will be looked after and come out of it at least as well of as when the begun. Basically a large government would need to prop it up.

This is why we would need to experiment. Like even if you start with a big city. That would be ok. To be honest you could start with a town. So long as they government backs it up if it fails and can see the value in investing in it.

To be honest, they know tat the money system is collapsing and they are looking for a way out. There will come a time when the system collapses fully and the powers at be just throw their hands up and go…..What now? Thats when they will fully adopt the idea. When they have nowhere else to turn.

So, yeah guys contact me if you like. We will not have a money system when we are boosting around the galaxy in the next 5000 years so we might as well get rid of it now.

To be honest, if we had got rid of money we might be doing it already……ok Im gonna do now. rambling.

1. Danny Chau posted the following on July 18, 2010 at 8:55 am.

   Hi Tommy,

   Check this out:

   http://www.youtube.com/user/TZMSocialEvolution#p/a/u/2/30FNVNk3_zE

   Awakening talks about man power vs. automation

   Our Technical Reality talks about our technology that is already in use that will benefit the masses

   A Few Simple Question is that we have all the means to support our life on this planet for FREE but not the will

   I’m one of many on this planet who are ready for the new resource based economy. I will email you ‘The World without Money’ PDF book via email.

   Danny

   Reply to Danny Chau
   1. Bob Wilkinson posted the following on July 18, 2010 at 10:09 pm.

      Danny,

      All the Awakening and Technology videos are very good and contain information that could benefit us all. Most of us don’t think too deep about why things are the way that they are. TZM and TVP could be the catalyst that takes human consciousness to the next level, however actions speak louder than words. I believe that it is true that if over 50% of the world’s population began seriously considering the concepts of TZM and TVP and spreading the message, that the change would happen at a faster pace and that we may be able to save the environment. I try my best to spread the word, but am dismayed about how people, in general, receive this message. I can only hope that it is not at too late a date that people realize what we have to do. Once we reach a certain tipping point of environmental degradation, it may be irreversible, and we cannot let that happen. Even when money is ascertained as the cause of our present dilemma, and that its elimination is the only answer, most people will not accept that conclusion because they are afraid that their status quo will be affected. They see it as a distribution of wealth and they will lose out in the end. At least that’s the stumbling block I’m coming up against.

      Bob

      Reply to Bob Wilkinson
      1. Sixpm posted the following on July 18, 2010 at 11:03 pm.

         Hi Bob,

         It is scientifically proven that it only takes the square root of one percent of a given population, in dedicated focus, to effect change. This is about 8,500 awakened individuals in unified intent to have a significant impact for the ENTIRE world.

         Here is a link to one of the articles on this finding:

         http://www.australia.to/2010/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1635%3Aa-scientifically-validated-security-strategy-for-australia&catid=101%3Aaustralian-news&Itemid=167

         I feel that the world is moving towards a new paradigm, we don’t never 50% of the world’s population to begin this shift.

         The videos I posted is a fine evidence that the momentum is growing, and there is no return.

         Best,
         Danny

         Reply to Sixpm
      2. Sixpm posted the following on July 19, 2010 at 3:56 am.

         One message I would like to share with you all, which is received from channelling by Michael Quinsey:

         SaLuSa 19-July-2010

         Fame and wealth are looked upon as an achievement to be desired; yet so often they are difficult to handle. Your privacy which you value is intruded upon and literally your life is not your own. Some people are prepared to withstand such a loss, and live out their make believe lives in circumstances that are no guarantee of happiness. Show business is surrounded by glamour and the need for success, and failure is often experienced with inconsolable grief. So who can lead a so-called ordinary life and find happiness and satisfaction. The majority of people are in lives where they struggle to make ends meet, or even to survive. Yet some manage to find a purpose in life that does give satisfaction, and it is through serving others. When you have found a way to help others, it gives an inner feeling of having discovered a true path, that allows you to express your love and experience fulfillment.

         There is within each one of you a desire to love and be loved; yet not everyone can express that in terms of freely giving of themselves. The energy of love is powerful and can work miracles, and costs you nothing to share with others. When it is given without seeking reward, and with no conditions you are well on the way to being able to give unconditional love. That indeed should be the goal you are working towards, and if you struggle to achieve it do not be too concerned. With the ever-increasing upliftment of the vibrations you will naturally attract higher energy to yourself, and it will become much easier to hold the love vibration. Everyone can work towards such levels, and those that are successful rarely seek fame or gain beyond what is necessary for their immediate requirements. Lightworkers know their life plan and are not distracted by the search for fame, although it sometimes comes with success. It is knowing how to control it that prevents it from taking over your life, so that you can continue with full focus on your work.

         Service to others is not necessarily seen as an attractive occupation, yet its rewards are manifold. You cannot take anything with you when you complete your life plan, but you will have the inner growth and joy of having spent it in a beneficial way. It does not require that you become one of the leading lights, and every contribution however small helps uplift the level of the mass consciousness. The capitalist way of thinking tends to promote greed, but there are of course some successful people who because they are blessed that way, do not forget to share their wealth. Because of it they sometimes achieve exceptional levels of generosity, but it is not the amount that is important but the thought behind it. This is exemplified by the biblical story of the widow’s mite, as she gave when her needs were as great as anyone else’s.

         So where are we heading with our message and why now, and we will tell you that the changes on Earth are becoming more widespread, and leaving many people in dire need of help. That position will worsen for all manner of reasons, and it begs of you that until it changes for the better that you try to help ease other people’s distress. The challenge of these times is putting a lot of pressure on you, but you can help prevent it becoming chaotic by getting together and organizing some kind of relief. It will provide an answer until the coming of real help, and the changes in your governments that will start a new era of beneficial changes on a large worldwide scale.

         Be assured that at all times we continue to keep a check on the well being of Mother Earth, with your Ascension in mind. There is a balance that we are responsible for, and it stops matters really getting out of hand. You will complete this cycle as decreed and in that sense it does not matter whatever the dark Ones attempt to do, they will not stop completion as planned. After all Dear Ones, you may conjecture that you have God on your side, and the Light is all-powerful. In reality God favors no one, but allows all souls to experience as they desire, using their God given freewill. In fact God loves all souls and is waiting to welcome them back to the Source, by which time your Light will have been completely restored.

         As fellow travelers we admire your confidence and tenacity in taking on duality, as it is far removed from the wonderful levels of Light that you came from. Now you are at the end of your journey and hardly realize what you have achieved. To have left your home of absolute beauty and bliss amongst the stars, and an enduring state of being within the love vibration was an immense decision to take. You were aware of the nature of the challenge, and took heart that whatever happened you would never be forsaken. You were promised help and direction, so that no matter how far you became immersed in the lower energies you would rise up again. That promise has been kept, and already you have emerged from the dark sufficiently, to recognize your own divinity and link to the Light. The awakening continues to speed up and you are beginning to feel the expansion in your consciousness. Now Ascension is in your sights and so near to taking place, that you have only a few more years before you lift up with Mother Earth.

         When you look at the larger picture, realize that you can ignore what is going on around you as it cannot last long, and you are stepping onto a new path that leaves it all behind. The new paradigm is taking shape, and as you focus on the future will imbue it with the power to manifest. You are creating all of the time but now you have the powerful energies directed to Earth, and they are far more potent than ever before. Because of this latent power it is in fact good practice to monitor your thoughts and emotions, and direct them only for the good of all. As time passes you will be helped to master such a degree of control, and it is one of our tasks when we arrive upon Earth. We come to do much that is of a physical nature, but we do not forget that your upliftment is for your spiritual evolution.

         I am SaLuSa from Sirius, and already feel the joy at the thought of traveling with you for the last part of your journey. We come as friends and for many also as family, but more importantly as your spiritual mentors and guides. You shall feel our love that we give unconditionally, and it will lift you up out of any worries or concerns you may still have.

         Thank you SaLuSa.
         Mike Quinsey.

         My address is michael.quinsey@mypostoffice.co.uk

         Reply to Sixpm
2. chris posted the following on August 10, 2010 at 7:08 pm.

   did you then ever ponder that it may not in fact be as much that fact that money has a medium use that in itself is the problem but rather it may be that the particular group in control of that money have a grossly unfair advantage and use that to steel the wealth of the working masses to stuff their accounts to unfairly enrich themselves. Take the United States. Prior to the institution of the Federal reserve, 80% of all real estate was owned by the individuals. Only 20% was in possession of corporations and government. Today less than 20% is owned by the people. Corporations and the Government which is another corporation are the owners of 80% of the real estate. All that occurred in less than 100 years, if the solution you are looking for is for government to change things to a fair system you must realize the nasty system that is currently decimating the quality of life in this land came exactly from that source.

   Reply to chris

Chris, you are missing the mark here. With no money, there will be no point to try to cheat the system. The only way to get to the top will be to become valuable to society and, I don’t know, build a new propulsion system or something. Getting a noble prize would secure you a place near the top for example

Your right, money is not the issue. Its mans greed for it. So take it away. Design a society where the only way to get to the top is by earning it yourself from scratch. Design it so that when someone employs the tactics that money hoarders do in todays world, they are punished and de-rank.

People often talk about the whole russia thing but that is a miss understanding of that I am talking about. I am not suggesting in my earlier post that we have a welfare based system. That will never work. what I am getting at is a system made so tat everyone is born at level 1. In their life they can rank to level 100. But almost nobody ever will.

The higher you rank, the better life you will have. you will not get money at all. its does not exist.

If you are level 40, you can eat at the level 4 food places and talk on a level 4 phone, drive a level 4 car for example.

Could be that each time you level up, you will get points to spend on whatever you like to design your life. No, these points are not like money. They are not transferable, do not gain interest or anything like that.

That bottomless greed some have will cause them to want to level up. To walk into a room and know they are the highest in there and if there is another that is higher they will aspire to be like them.

The russia thing is nothing like this. People will work like they do today to keep the lifestyle they have.

Eventually the plan will be that the positive direction man is not taking will lead to more and more automation. Machines building machines.
Only in this system, it also takes away jobs, BUT THAT IS A GOOD THING!!

The “unemployed” will not be losing their house or inundated with bills struggling to buy groceries. They will sleep in, relax and only works 4 days a week instead of 5. Then 4. Then 3. Then 2. Then 1. Then humans will be completely serviced by machines and out planet will be a batter place to live.

Just sucks if you are a robot.

If anyone would like to challenge me here to try to destroy my system then I welcome it. So far I have not found a reason why this wont work except that the people in power today would not allow it.

1. chris posted the following on August 11, 2010 at 4:54 pm.

   you are unfortunately renaming money into a points system and are then remaking the same exact thing which has never worked well and setting it up for the same criminal element to take advantage of those less aggressive. Far more could be done today by all decent people just using cash for their transactions to remove the government equation from their lives. it would not be totally an improvement but much more so than the nothing otherwise. Greed is a hard thing to break of a man. I really don’t have a problem with free enterprise. If a true free enterprise system ever existed, good people would fare well. Capitalism and communism are two different words for essentially the very same thing. Under the one system the means of production are in a corporations holding of the then called state. An non-fiction and upper declared righteous owners of the world who take for themselves and leave crumbs for the populace who created that wealth. Under capitalism the special self indulgent individuals calling themselves CEO’s purchase government through fake elections, advertisement, etc. hold the means to production, eliminate competition throughout licensing, militarized policing agencies etc. then place their victims into their system of slavery for their benefit. The only difference being who the working individual then calls their owner or master. The only thing that can be in reality a difference is that a person have control over their own destiny in totality. Neither of the two system nor what has general been described address that issue. Certainly the banking insurance finance industry should be abolished. These are about the most evil group upon the face of the earth. The creation of money out a thin air and then charging working persons interest at the outrageous interest at which they do should be able to be seen by even the most infantile mind that that in down right immoral. If you create a system where all that is then just hidden behind a curtain but still affecting the lives of persons, you have not even begun to address the problems that plague mankind. Fact, of the matter, The average working person with his vices in check, if he is working a 40 hour week with the machination of todays world, without all the theft that currently occurs were to place his wealth to his advantage (I’m not talking about interest, stock market etc) He would be able to stop working and live off his creation the balance of his life, by the age of 30.
   You further don’t go into who decides on the point system. Most likely it will be the same kind of a morale persons that currently run the banking, federal reserve system, and or criminal government positions which attract only that element. Since government has always created problems rather than solve them if another corporation is then set up to likewise set something as such up then it is then doomed from the get go. A couple years ago, The DC crowd started a program called neighborhood revitalization. Long before implementation people in government had it figured how to steal that wealth. It was to supposedly help poor persons with housing problems. Most of that money went to persons making in excess of 60,000. a year. persons with a guaranteed retirement income in the future and I don”t mean socialist insecurity. Meanwhile person truly in need just wanted 10 or so gallons of paint, and willing to pay their own labor were told that was not going to be possible, the monies had dried up. We don’t even have it amongst us for the most part to address other then the most violent criminals amongst us. We have tolerated a drug war that has dragged on for more than 50 years with a massive loss in effectiveness. Our towns are in shambles with vandalism. And still no near interest in addressing those issues. Why should insurance companies be making monies off misfortune. These companies only pay out 15% of what comes in. Administrative cost are not that high. Check out the homes those persons live in. You may say that going into a money less system will address those issues, but I guaranteed, it’s those very same persons who will implement the point system. They will take l0 points for themselves and leave you with one. It matters not what superficial you do, something concrete has to occur to eliminate unfairness.It’s not unfair that the drunk who never solber’s up has less than the fine surgeon. It certainly is unfair, the thief who breaks into your property to unfairly advantage himself. It certainly is unfair the government entity who taxes those to embellish themselves where the masses get pathetic so called services. Only a system which address all the loopholes that create these unfair advantages will make an improvement in peoples lifestyle. Further, unless people have the opt out privilege the system fails at the get go. Insurance is a good guide on that. When auto insurance became mandatory in Louisiana about 10 years ago the oligarch had full control on the major assets of the working persons. Price escalated as attorneys, doctors and insurance person began filing their pockets. The further the wealth departs from your pocket the less you get for it and the worse your lot in life becomes.The people have to have serious check and balance power over the vested interest.

   Reply to chris

Most of us here who visit this forum have their ideal vision of a more perfect world, One that isn’t designed to concentrate money to a few privileged individual groups, and/or classes like we do now. The real problem we face is convincing the masses that we need to change. This is what I find to be most difficult. Last night I played and sang the song Imagine by John Lennon, for a group of about 200 people here at a family campground in the mountains of Northern California. I made it a sing along where everybody sang along with me. It was fun and I received many compliments. However, even though they agree with the philosophy of the words, “Imagine there is no Heaven, Imagine there is no Countries, Imagine no Possession, and Imagine people sharing all the world,” in my conversations with the campers here, they dismiss my notions of a money-less society as an idealized utopia that cannot be attained because it is against human nature, and that everyone would be lazy and not work etc. There is really no need to argue about who has the better idea until we figure out how to get the message to more people and convince them that change is needed if we are to save humanity. Once we have sufficient numbers, we can go from there. I like the discussions and like reading everyone’s ideas, as they all have some merit, but what we need is a way to get the message out to more people. What do you think?

1. Sixpm posted the following on August 12, 2010 at 11:05 pm.

   I still believes in the 100 monkey syndrome and that is we only need a small percentage of people hold this strong will and belief that it CAN and it WILL happen is enough to overturn the consciousness of the masses. So the idea of ‘impossible’ or it is because of ‘human nature’ is just don’t stick with me or for us to access our higher powers within our DNA and consciousness.

   Afterall, we have created this reality first with our thought, so we can do the revert it in the same manor.

   Reply to Sixpm